Dan Martin - "Now I know you can win clean"

[Big Doopie]

I LOL'ed at the stupidity.

but took 20 minutes out of your very important day to post an illogical rebuttal.

now what was it you called "stupid"?

LOL.

 

[Big Doopie]

Ah so he's just a fanboy.

it's unfortunate that the only way you can stomach supporting AlDopo Clentadopucci is to insinuate that all riders are serial dopers on the same program as your beloved.

but this is factually incorrect.

and you know it.

 

[Big Doopie]

And yet, we know there are some individuals that did not take that option despite being absolutely surrounded by it with an almost universal understanding there were no consequences.

Izzy's comment is good. A clean-ish Martin on the top podium step is more plausible in 2014. But, again, this is cycling so there's no confidence in a clean-ish Martin.

If Dan suddenly brings home TT podiums, then, IMO, we can be confident about the reason for the transformation.

Overall, circumstances have worked out pretty well for clean-ish riders in the 2014 worldtour.

excellent post!

 

[Big Doopie]

If you read through that thread, Big Doopie always referred to Big Doopie in the third person as well.

you remember? how wonderful.

the king gives you a tip of his crown!

 

[Big Doopie]

I just don't buy that. Plenty of guys have left the Slipstream program on less-than-good terms. I have heard bad things about the team, but nothing about doping from anyone.

Sure, any team could have doped riders. But to say Slipstream maintains a team system is totally baseless speculation, and IMO just uninformed.

bingo! we have a winner!

it would also mean that jv would have to be a greater and more conniving sociopath than armstrong and the hog together. it would mean that a whole team of riders and support personnel would have been able to keep everything completely under wraps for way way longer than USPostal ever did. Waaaaaaay longer. and under conditions that aren't anyway near as helpful to such a conspiracy. no cancer jesus. no uci presidents in financial dealings with said team. no willfully ignorant press.

sorry. not logical.

not one bit.

 

[Big Doopie]

Why do you evade the question? Simple because if you answer it you show by one measure (one that is perfectly reasonable) that cycling is cleaner so you will keep dodging.

another winner! bingo!

 

[LaFlorecita]

If you read through that thread, Big Doopie always referred to Big Doopie in the third person as well.

ah I remember that

 

[Big Doopie]

ah I remember that

Big Doopie remembers that as well.

fondly.

 

[mrhender]

bingo! we have a winner!

it would also mean that jv would have to be a greater and more conniving sociopath than armstrong and the hog together. it would mean that a whole team of riders and support personnel would have been able to keep everything completely under wraps for way way longer than USPostal ever did. Waaaaaaay longer. and under conditions that aren't anyway near as helpful to such a conspiracy. no cancer jesus. no uci presidents in financial dealings with said team. no willfully ignorant press.

sorry. not logical.

not one bit.

So try this for logical...

JV has immense amount of knowledge as how to dodge a bullet...
Doping to the max in Garmin? No probably not, he's learned his leasson and keeps it within the limits of the BP... If he really was anti-doping he would be testifying to the authorities as to how Astana and all the other teams are doping their riders... Dont tell me he doesn't know..........
Now they are keeping it moderate (as in under the values of the BP), same as every clever team/rider nowadays... Look at Kreuziger, he (in my opinion) had his best season ever in 2013.. Yet they are charging him for abmormalities three years ago right...? By your logic Kreuziger went clean with Riis and just gained 10-20% on "marginal gains" provided by rich teams... That's just amazing...

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I just don't buy that. Plenty of guys have left the Slipstream program on less-than-good terms. I have heard bad things about the team, but nothing about doping from anyone.

Out of curiosity, which teams have you heard doping about?

Sure, any team could have doped riders. But to say Slipstream maintains a team system is totally baseless speculation, and IMO just uninformed.

Team system? Garmin basically invented a version of the ABP and were using it in 2007 before it was introduced in 2008 officially. As were CSC, from memory.

You don't have to dope riders to have a team system. Making sure they don't test positive is enough.

 

[mrhender]

Out of curiosity, which teams have you heard doping about?



Team system? Garmin basically invented a version of the ABP and were using it in 2007 before it was introduced in 2008 officially. As were CSC, from memory.

You don't have to dope riders to have a team system. Making sure they don't test positive is enough.

Yes.. Rasmus Damsgaard was hired by Riis and was one of the founding fathers of the ABP... He got alot of flak for it later on though...

 

[Benotti69]

bingo! we have a winner!

it would also mean that jv would have to be a greater and more conniving sociopath than armstrong and the hog together. it would mean that a whole team of riders and support personnel would have been able to keep everything completely under wraps for way way longer than USPostal ever did. Waaaaaaay longer. and under conditions that aren't anyway near as helpful to such a conspiracy. no cancer jesus. no uci presidents in financial dealings with said team. no willfully ignorant press.

sorry. not logical.

not one bit.

Yeah everyone as soon as they left USPS ratted out Armstrong.......oh wait, that was not how it went! Even when guys like Heras was popped he still kept schtum about USPS, I mean even JV talked about Armstrong being a good guy to the media and fans......Not many break the omerta not even JV.

JV has not had too many rows now has he and anyone who spits in the soup wont be sitting at the table again.

 

[Benotti69]

Believing is irrelevant.
Clean should be the starting assumption.

That assumption has to be based on something....maybe anti doping works, maybe everyone rides clean, maybe riders who get caught doping end up as penniless losers

Now, the question is, is winning a race or races reason enough to move away from this starting presumption?

The question is does the testing work?

I would never be so presumptuous to think the sport is run in a manner that a clean rider has even a tiny chance.

 

[Benotti69]

Why do you evade the question? Simple because if you answer it you show by one measure (one that is perfectly reasonable) that cycling is cleaner so you will keep dodging.

That cycling is cleaner than 60% hemacrits means cycling is cleaner?

Yeah, that really works when you look at Froome, riding like he has a 60% Hct yet his Hct is not over 50% and his Vo2max is not even high for a cyclist.

So your argument that cycling is cleanER fails because Froome, Wiggins, Piti, Contador, O'Grady, Iglinsky, Cookson all point to the sport not having changed that doping is part of the fabric of the sport. Martin was with the dopers till the end of a monument and not on bread and water.

I dont believe it is possible for a rider to win a monument clean. When his DS wont release his power numbers then there is no reason to think he did it clean.

Dan Martin might just be the nicest guy in the peloton, but that dont mean **** when it comes to doping.

 

[sniper]

Out of curiosity, which teams have you heard doping about?



Team system? Garmin basically invented a version of the ABP and were using it in 2007 before it was introduced in 2008 officially. As were CSC, from memory.

You don't have to dope riders to have a team system. Making sure they don't test positive is enough.

exactemundo.

izzystraddling's post is a strawman.
hardly anybody here says garmin/JV dope their riders providing them with gear and all.
doesn't mean Garmin doesn't (deliberately) provide a setting that facilitates riders to dope while flying below the radar.

 

[BYOP88]

Yeah everyone as soon as they left USPS ratted out Armstrong.......oh wait, that was not how it went! Even when guys like Heras was popped he still kept schtum about USPS, I mean even JV talked about Armstrong being a good guy to the media and fans......Not many break the omerta not even JV.

JV has not had too many rows now has he and anyone who spits in the soup wont be sitting at the table again.

Yes wasn't there an interview with cyclingnews where Jonathan "I've dedicated my life to professional cycling, anti-doping" Vaughters, said "I was worried about ending up in jail and being someone's ***** that's why I didn't, haven't and wont dope and I never saw Lance dope or Johan tell us we had to dope". Turns out Vaughters lied because he did dope.

 

[blackcat]

exactemundo.

izzystraddling's post is a strawman.
hardly anybody here says garmin/JV dope their riders providing them with gear and all.
doesn't mean Garmin doesn't (deliberately) provide a setting that facilitates riders to dope while flying below the radar.

nah, i dont think JV encourages his riders to dope. He gives them a berth, and encourages them not to test positive or spike the passport. I know i am splitting hairs a little, but its not the same.

But the extent of the top 10s at the Tour in their first half dozen years with numerous riders who had not manifested such talent before... cvdv, wigans, ryder is more to my analysis than just the individual cyclist rising to the challenge when team leadership is placed before them. The fact that they continued to do it, i do not think indicates they have some secret Lim performance system.

i am really defending Garmin, they aint doin anything different, they may all be great guys for all i know. but i really dont like millar, social climbing hypocrite with dodgy dress sense exemplified by his patronage of gucci when he was on cofidis bux

 

[westerner]

Yes wasn't there an interview with cyclingnews where Jonathan "I've dedicated my life to professional cycling, anti-doping" Vaughters, said "I was worried about ending up in jail and being someone's ***** that's why I didn't, haven't and wont dope and I never saw Lance dope or Johan tell us we had to dope". Turns out Vaughters lied because he did dope.

Not sure sometimes whether its the doping (cheating) or the constant lying by the players at the top of cycling that has been the most contributing to cycling's credibility issues, probably a combo. With internet searching its easy to go back in time and attribute a lot of lying to a lot of guys...who are today saying trust me now, now I'm telling the truth!

 

[blackcat]

Yes.. Rasmus Damsgaard was hired by Riis and was one of the founding fathers of the ABP... He got alot of flak for it later on though...

he liked those Cervelos with top-line specs innit

 

[blackcat]

Yes wasn't there an interview with cyclingnews where Jonathan "I've dedicated my life to professional cycling, anti-doping" Vaughters, said "I was worried about ending up in jail and being someone's ***** that's why I didn't, haven't and wont dope and I never saw Lance dope or Johan tell us we had to dope". Turns out Vaughters lied because he did dope.

now it is just us who are all jay vee's beeyitch

 

[mrhender]

he liked those Cervelos with top-line specs innit

Ahh you remember that..

 

[IzzyStradlin]

Out of curiosity, which teams have you heard doping about?

In the 90s everybody who spent time at OTC had needle stories.

In the early 00s you could not go near teams like Saturn or Navigators or Toyota without hearing drug rumors.

Of the people I have spoken to that spent time in the Slipstream program (and no longer race bikes professionally), nobody mentioned doping. And they were by no means JV cheerleaders.

While I am not always in the know, the cycling scene in the US is small and word travels fast. For the size of the team, the lack of rumors around Slipstream is noticeable.

 

[ralphbert]

Yeah, that really works when you look at Froome, riding like he has a 60% Hct yet his Hct is not over 50% and his Vo2max is not even high for a cyclist.

Have UK postal published his Vo2max results?

 

[mrhender]

In the 90s everybody who spent time at OTC had needle stories.

In the early 00s you could not go near teams like Saturn or Navigators or Toyota without hearing drug rumors.

Of the people I have spoken to that spent time in the Slipstream program (and no longer race bikes professionally), nobody mentioned doping. And they were by no means JV cheerleaders.

Just a question... Are you making a judgement based upon mentions of doping from who....? My understanding is that the new clean era are using three tools...

1. limit program to your captains (those who can actually win a race)

2. make sure no-one in the team knows.

3. make sure values are beneith ABP values...

The core of clean era right there...
This would also explain recent "dumb @ss" revelations...
Those not invited has to create their own party right?

From an outside point of view, one could argue that doping might be limited and moderated a bit.. But that's the result of former dopers learning from past mistakes...

If you have inside knowledge, please share in abundance...?

 

[IzzyStradlin]

1. limit program to your captains (those who can actually win a race)

2. Make sure no-one in the team knows.

3. make sure values are beneith ABP values...

Which sort of proves the point. Fewer are doping. The positive benefits of doping are limited (ABP). So top clean riders have a better chance of getting results.

And I will be the first to admit, I don't have any contact of any sort with "those who can actually win a race".