Dan Martin - "Now I know you can win clean"

[Digger]

Martin might be clean. I don't know. I personally wouldn't bet too much on it...but let's assume he's clean...he has a strange attitude to known dopers.
And was only recently saying it was Great news that impey got off.
I will say he does have good genetics and one thing I did find interesting and was something jv said, about genes being passed from the mother rather than the father's side...that's really interesting.

 

[42x16ss]

You're all talking jack **** about something you truly have no idea about, he's a clean rider and you're all just jealous and moaning because your favourites didn't win and you have nowhere else to go but troll on the internet. Get over it.

Come on, that material is so 1999

 

[elduggo]

No i am not. Musha, calling me anti Irish is calling me racist.

well if the cap fits

 

[Cance > TheRest]

why is Martin the chosen one?
More talent? better moral standards? better racing intelligence? Other marginal gains? More training, better nutrition?
Come on. Heard it all before.
He might have been clever at Lombardia, but there are about 150 participants perhaps 50 of whom are seriously thinking about winning that race.
And this is not only about Lombardia. It's not the only race he's won. To explain all his victories as the result of his racing-intelligence just isn't cutting it. There are tons of guys who'd do anything to swap with Martin.
He's won MTFs in the TdF and the Vuelta, and won LBL.
7th this year Vuelta. Buenos dias. Do we know the last time somebody's done all that on bread 'n water.
Why do the iglinsky brothers and so many others get on the gear yet aren't getting the results Martin gets?
this is one of the toughest endurance sports out there, yes, also on the flat, and Martin is turning into one of the best racers of this decade.
He's also got some of the best medical attention a rider could possibly ask for. Garmin take care of that.

To argue he's clean is to put blind faith in Garmin's PR.
I don't see any real arguments.

When did that ever happen?

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

That cycling is cleaner than 60% hemacrits means cycling is cleaner?

If performance is partly a function of HCT and if you cannot raise your HCT as high when doping then yes, from that measure, it is cleaner.

Yeah, that really works when you look at Froome, riding like he has a 60% Hct yet his Hct is not over 50% and his Vo2max is not even high for a cyclist.

But the point is that he is not riding as fast as guys from that period. btw What is his VO2 max? Also, cleaner just does not mean just one rider. You strip out the top 5 riders of the GTs and I am guessing the speeds are mush slower on average then the similar placed riders of the 90s.

Are you saying that from a purely empirical point of view that climbing speeds are equal to the early/mid 90's given a similar course/race?

So your argument that cycling is cleanER fails because Froome, Wiggins, Piti, Contador, O'Grady, Iglinsky, Cookson all point to the sport not having changed that doping is part of the fabric of the sport. Martin was with the dopers till the end of a monument and not on bread and water.

How does it fail? You have, as usual, made no clear points and then concluded that you have proved your point. No one has said doping has gone away. And in fact, if no one was getting caught then would that be a sign that cycling was clean? Of course not.

Dan Martin might just be the nicest guy in the peloton, but that dont mean **** when it comes to doping.

Who said otherwise? Strawman argument.

 

[sniper]

How does it fail? You have, as usual, made no clear points and then concluded that you have proved your point. No one has said doping has gone away.

people are constantly hammering on abuot how you can now win clean without any arguments to that extent.

the only argument people seem to be left with is "well, we like Garmin, they say they're clean all the time so it must be true."

in the end there is nothing other than that like-factor to suggest Garmin's top dogs (wiggins, hesjedal, martin, talansky) have been racing clean.

 

[zigmeister]

If Froome had a high Vo2Max sky would be boasting about it.

The rest i have already addressed.

I want to know exactly how you determined he doesn't have a high V02Max. Saying Sky would brag about it if he did, is hardly scientific when we know you can actually measure with testing.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

people are constantly hammering on abuot how you can now win clean without any arguments to that extent.

Other than him winning what do you consider the major argument(s) that indicate that Martin is a doper? For instance do you have any indication

That he is achieving exceptional numbers in the third week of a GT?
Has he been directly linked to dodgy doctors?
Has a large head.
etc...

I am not saying for a fact that he is clean (or any pro-rider is). However I think that the evidence against him is he has won a couple of big races i.e. He has won LBL and TOL.

More than willing to reconsider if you have other (relevant) evidence.

 

[grizzlee]

FAO BENOTTI

This is a serious question, id just like to know something? You have stated on numerous ocasions that it is impossible to win clean in the pro peleton against dopers. Could you clarify something for me? Was Bassons doping in the 1999 Dauphine when he won stage 8 or was everyone else during that race also clean?

 

[gooner]

I want to know exactly how you determined he doesn't have a high V02Max. Saying Sky would brag about it if he did, is hardly scientific when we know you can actually measure with testing.

Michel Theze in the recent programme about Froome said the numbers he produced were some of the biggest he came across back then.

I don't mind fair minded people expressing their wish for VO2 Max or the data to be released as has been said in relation to Martin in this thread. That's provided it's coming from an open minded position.

That's not the case with some on here. Even if Martin's data was credible or Froome's VO2 Max was sky high, they'd still be stuck in the same concrete view as they were beforehand.

I pointed out Roche and Rui Costa who have done this for their wins and another poster Kwiatkowski for the recent Worlds. That still hasn't made the slightest difference and I see no reason why it wouldn't be the same with Froome and Martin.

It's disingenuous that they then call out for it.

 

[Benotti69]

If performance is partly a function of HCT and if you cannot raise your HCT as high when doping then yes, from that measure, it is cleaner.

Till we see real transparent changes you can take anything about the sport being cleanER with a pinch of salt. And if you are happy that riders are micro-doping then why bother the clinic with apologist type posts about being happy that riders are not racing at 60% Hct but now some are looking like hungerstrikers!


I am always amazed that posters who beleive guys like Wiggins, Froome, Hesjedal and Martin are racing clean come into the clinic. It reeks of desperation hoping that posters who call these riders out will be made look foolish and therefore back their faith in these riders and teams cleanliness.

Sorry but looking for that in here is foolish, look for changes in anti doping that make a real difference before you start defending a sport riddled with doping.

 

[Benotti69]

well if the cap fits

You trying to blame me for Elliot, Kelly, Roche Snr, Early, Kimmage, Roche Jnr, Martins doping?

Good man yerself, sure is isn't it grand that our lads can get mucky with the rest of them.

 

[Benotti69]

I want to know exactly how you determined he doesn't have a high V02Max. Saying Sky would brag about it if he did, is hardly scientific when we know you can actually measure with testing.

Well now let us see, when Kimmage asked him about it he answered him. So go find it.

 

[Benotti69]

FAO BENOTTI

This is a serious question, id just like to know something? You have stated on numerous ocasions that it is impossible to win clean in the pro peleton against dopers. Could you clarify something for me? Was Bassons doping in the 1999 Dauphine when he won stage 8 or was everyone else during that race also clean?

Well 1999 was a very particular year. It was the year after Festina, so everyone in the pro peleotn apart from Team lance were paranoid about doping. But did Bassons finish high up on GC?

Bassons had one decent win in his career, 1 stage in the Dauphiné Libéré, and he was apparently a very talented rider. I think that should tell you what was going on in the peloton. As it was the last stage of the race, maybe Bassons was 'gifted' the stage, maybe the GC contenders were watching each other and not caring for the win, I cannot compare a stage(148km) of a week long race with a monument(254km).

Now comparing Bassons to Martin is way off the mark.

Bassons won once in his career. There will always be exceptions. But Dan Martin has won 2 Monuments beating big time dopers and nearly won LBL this year apart from a last corner accident. I dont think it is possible to be clean and up there with dopers in a monument. There will be a monument where a clean rider wins, but it will be because events conspired agaisnt the others, it might be the weather, it might be crashes, but Dan Martin did not win his monuments in such a fashion, he was there at the end dropping dopers of his wheel.

If it was possible for clean riders to win monuments on a regular basis can posters please list them. TIA.

 

[Benotti69]

As an aside, i have not heard Dan Martin complain that riders in his team were only given 6 months bans for doping over a winter non racing period. Not sure Bassons would have kept silent about it like Dan Martin.

 

[Nick C.]

Is this the circular reasoning thread?

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

Well 1999 was a very particular year. It was the year after Festina, so everyone in the pro peleotn apart from Team lance were paranoid about doping. But did Bassons finish high up on GC?

Bassons had one decent win in his career, 1 stage in the Dauphiné Libéré, and he was apparently a very talented rider. I think that should tell you what was going on in the peloton. As it was the last stage of the race, maybe Bassons was 'gifted' the stage, maybe the GC contenders were watching each other and not caring for the win, I cannot compare a stage(148km) of a week long race with a monument(254km).

Now comparing Bassons to Martin is way off the mark.

Bassons won once in his career. There will always be exceptions. But Dan Martin has won 2 Monuments beating big time dopers and nearly won LBL this year apart from a last corner accident. I dont think it is possible to be clean and up there with dopers in a monument. There will be a monument where a clean rider wins, but it will be because events conspired agaisnt the others, it might be the weather, it might be crashes, but Dan Martin did not win his monuments in such a fashion, he was there at the end dropping dopers of his wheel.

If it was possible for clean riders to win monuments on a regular basis can posters please list them. TIA.

Anyone could just list riders they believe won monuments clean and you would just say it was a list of dopers. A completely pointless exercise.

 

[Benotti69]

Anyone could just list riders they believe won monuments clean and you would just say it was a list of dopers. A completely pointless exercise.

1974 Roger De Vlaeminck (BEL) Brooklyn
1975 Francesco Moser (ITA) Samson
1976 Roger De Vlaeminck (BEL) Brooklyn
1977 Gianbattista Baronchelli (ITA) Scic
1978 Francesco Moser (ITA) Samson Campagnolo
1979 Bernard Hinault (FRA) Renault-Gitane-Campagnolo
1980 Fons De Wolf (BEL) Boule d'Or-Colnago
1981 Hennie Kuiper (NED) DAF Trucks-Cote D'Or
1982 Giuseppe Saronni (ITA) Del Tongo-Colnago
1983 Sean Kelly (IRL) Sem-France Loire
1984 Bernard Hinault (FRA) La Vie Claire
1985 Sean Kelly (IRL) Skil Sem Kas Miko
1986 Gianbattista Baronchelli (ITA) Supermercati Brianzoli
1987 Moreno Argentin (ITA) Gewiss-Bianchi
1988 Charly Mottet (FRA) Systeme U-Gitane
1989 Tony Rominger (SUI) Chateau d'Ax
1990 Gilles Delion (FRA) Helvetia-La Suisse
1991 Sean Kelly (IRL) PDM-Concorde
1992 Tony Rominger (SUI) CLAS-Cajastur
1993 Pascal Richard (SUI) Ariostea
1994 Vladislav Bobrik (RUS) Gewiss-Ballan
1995 Gianni Faresin (ITA) Lampre-Panaria
1996 Andrea Tafi (ITA) Mapei-GB
1997 Laurent Jalabert (FRA) ONCE
1998 Oscar Camenzind (SUI) Mapei-Bricobi
1999 Mirko Celestino (ITA) Team Polti
2000 Raimondas Rumšas (LTU) Fassa Bortolo
2001 Danilo Di Luca (ITA) Cantina Tollo-Acqua e Sapone
2002 Michele Bartoli (ITA) Fassa Bortolo
2003 Michele Bartoli (ITA) Fassa Bortolo
2004 Damiano Cunego (ITA) Saeco Macchine per Caffè
2005 Paolo Bettini (ITA) Quick Step-Innergetic
2006 Paolo Bettini (ITA) Quick Step-Innergetic
2007 Damiano Cunego (ITA) Lampre-Fondital
2008 Damiano Cunego (ITA) Lampre
2009 Philippe Gilbert (BEL) Silence-Lotto
2010 Philippe Gilbert (BEL) Omega Pharma-Lotto
2011 Oliver Zaugg (SUI) Leopard Trek
2012 Joaquim Rodríguez (ESP) Team Katusha
2013 Joaquim Rodríguez (ESP) Team Katusha
2014 Daniel Martin (IRL) Garmin-Sharp


Should not be too hard to pick the clean riders from the last 40 years of GdL!

 

[sniper]

Other than him winning what do you consider the major argument(s) that indicate that Martin is a doper? For instance do you have any indication

let's first agree that the burden of proof lies on Garmin. They've been screaming cleanliness off the rooftops, so they should expect extra scrutiny and deliver extra transparency. However, they aren't delivering that. On the contrary, they are instead mocking the doubters (see e.g. Talansky's comments on Di Luca or Vaughters' constant ridiculizing of anybody who dares to question Garmin).
So that, for starters, is very unconvincing.

That he is achieving exceptional numbers in the third week of a GT?

that would be a yes.
He's come in 7th in the Vuelta.
There are specialists who claim you couldn't even finish a 3-week stage race without doping. Perhaps I wouldn't go that extreme, but any doctor/physiologist without a vested interest in cycling will be able to tell you that 7th in the Vuelta is not achieved on bread and water.

Has he been directly linked to dodgy doctors?

he rides for Garmin, so yes.

I am not saying for a fact that he is clean (or any pro-rider is). However I think that the evidence against him is he has won a couple of big races i.e. He has won LBL and TOL.

He's won mountain stages in the Vuelta and TdF, he's come second in the Waalse Pijl, he's won Catalunya, Tour of Poland and had other very decent results.
If you look at other winners of the races he's won, all you see is dopers and riders linked with doping.

Out of curiosity, do you have any arguments to assume he's clean?
All I've heard thus far is - he has good genes.
I remember a certain Coyle writing about Lance Armstrong's fabulous genes.

 

[the sceptic]

Should not be too hard to pick the clean riders from the last 40 years of GdL!

I see a lot of confirmed dopers, and some that no one in their right mind would believe to be cleans.

Gilbert, Purito, Cunego.. I doubt Dan Martin bots will believe them to be clean despite never testing positive.

 

[pmcg76]

1974 Roger De Vlaeminck (BEL) Brooklyn

1988 Charly Mottet (FRA) Systeme U-Gitane
1989 Tony Rominger (SUI) Chateau d'Ax
1990 Gilles Delion (FRA) Helvetia-La Suisse
Snipped


Should not be too hard to pick the clean riders from the last 40 years of GdL!

Funny you should post that list as straight away I see 2 names who were considered clean riders.

Giles Delion was regarded as a Bassons type guy long before Bassons became famous. In his Lombardy win, he beat Millar(Positive test), Echave(Positive Test), Richard(apparent legendary doper) as well as the likes of Kelly, Bugno & Chiappucci(the latter two were allegedly on EPO by that time). Sadly Delion's career suffered from the onset of Mono. He did manage to win a Tour stage in 92 beating Stephen Roche who of course as most here would tell you was on EPO. A totally clean rider beating a guy on EPO, not possible guvnor.

Charly Mottet is the other rider who was declared clean by Willy Voet. There is a bit of a story about his Lombardy win in 88. Mottet was off the front by himself and all the other teams were chasing behind like crazy but couldn't close the gap. Some of the other Team directors couldn't understand what was happening so they drove up front to Mottet to ensure nothing nefarious was going on in term's of drafting etc. After a while the Team Director got the picture that Mottet was on one of his super days and dropped back again, Mottet stayed clear.

Ah the memories, funny then that Mottet was one of those beaten by Delion in 90. I also remember that same season Mottet beating LeMond at Zurich in 1990 when LeMond was on absolutely top form as he was coming out of the Tour and holding his form for the Worlds which were held in August back then. Mottet had a nightmare Tour that year finishing miles down and more or less abandoning any hopes of ever winning Le Tour. Edit: both Mottet and LeMond finished ahead of Chiappucci 3rd and Bugno 5th at Zurich. Oh no, more totally clean riders beating guys on EPO.

As I said before, one day races provides strange results. Perfect example, Mottet who had a crap Tour beating the Tour winner a few weeks after the Tour finished. Surely not possible.

 

[Benotti69]

Funny you should post that list as straight away I see 2 names who were considered clean riders.

Giles Delion was regarded as a Bassons type guy long before Bassons became famous. In his Lombardy win, he beat Millar(Positive test), Echave(Positive Test), Richard(apparent legendary doper) as well as the likes of Kelly, Bugno & Chiappucci(the latter two were allegedly on EPO by that time). Sadly Delion's career suffered from the onset of Mono. He did manage to win a Tour stage in 92 beating Stephen Roche who of course as most here would tell you was on EPO. A totally clean rider beating a guy on EPO, not possible guvnor.

Charly Mottet is the other rider who was declared clean by Willy Voet. There is a bit of a story about his Lombardy win in 88. Mottet was off the front by himself and all the other teams were chasing behind like crazy but couldn't close the gap. Some of the other Team directors couldn't understand what was happening so they drove up front to Mottet to ensure nothing nefarious was going on in term's of drafting etc. After a while the Team Director got the picture that Mottet was on one of his super days and dropped back again, Mottet stayed clear.

Ah the memories, funny then that Mottet was one of those beaten by Delion in 90. I also remember that same season Mottet beating LeMond at Zurich in 1990 when LeMond was on absolutely top form as he was coming out of the Tour and holding his form for the Worlds which were held in August back then. Mottet had a nightmare Tour that year finishing miles down and more or less abandoning any hopes of ever winning Le Tour.

As I said before, one day races provides strange results. Perfect example, Mottet who had a crap Tour beating the Tour winner a few weeks after the Tour finished. Surely not possible.

2 from a list of 40. That is not a lot of clean winners.

I would love to think Martin is clean and can win, but i have to go with logic.

And logic tells me he aint one of those physiological super beings that come along in a few generations and have huge natural talents. The guy has hayfever issues FFS, not what i would expect from a physiological super natural human!

That JV wont release the information is another failure in the idea that Martin is clean. If Martin was clean, i would expect JV to be hailing it from every media source available, but he aint and when asked for the data he refused.

People lambast me for not believing Martin is clean, why should i when the team owner hides the data?

 

[pmcg76]

2 from a list of 40. That is not a lot of clean winners.

I would love to think Martin is clean and can win, but i have to go with logic.

And logic tells me he aint one of those physiological super beings that come along in a few generations and have huge natural talents. The guy has hayfever issues FFS, not what i would expect from a physiological super natural human!

That JV wont release the information is another failure in the idea that Martin is clean. If Martin was clean, i would expect JV to be hailing it from every media source available, but he aint and when asked for the data he refused.

People lambast me for not believing Martin is clean, why should i when the team owner hides the data?

My post said nothing wrt Dan Martin. It gave examples of clean riders beating doped riders and supposedly totally clean guys beating riders on EPO. This after all is what you are claiming is impossible. I named the two guys who had a clean rep, there might have been more, I don't know.

It also highlighted the sometimes random nature of one day races, when logic and supposed advantages go out the window. Of course, you ignored all this and went on another one of your rants.

You are whining about Garmin not releasing data but as I pointed out before, Kwiatowski released his data for the Worlds which shows nothing suspicious. Does this mean Kwiatowski is clean to you? If not then what relevance does releasing data have anyway? Are Omega Pharma suddenly the most transparent team out there and dope free?

Garmin have released a number of profiles before, none of which were considered suspicious by the experts, yet in here every one of them has been interperted as proof of those Garmin riders doping. I think JV has said he has learned his lesson about releasing data. Don't do it, because it will change nobodys mind and people will make what they want from it.

 

[TailWindHome]

I would again point out the inherent unfairness of assuming rider Z is a doper because rider A through Y doped.

 

[BradCantona]

I would again point out the inherent unfairness of assuming rider Z is a doper because rider A through Y doped.

Poor Z, finishing last but still having its reputation stained eh!

A must be on the good stuff