Dan Martin - "Now I know you can win clean"

[yespatterns]

I would again point out the inherent unfairness of assuming rider Z is a doper because rider A through Y doped.

Obviously it depends on the specific race context, but a rider on bread and water is probably not going to win against a epo fuelled rider who is a decent responder (of which there are/were many). So yes, i think it's okay to have a raised eyebrow at certain results.

 

[the sceptic]

I would again point out the inherent unfairness of assuming rider Z is a doper because rider A through Y doped.

I am struggling to understand how this is supposed to be unfair. Can you explain?

It appears to me that if a sample of 25 riders are 100% doping, then it would be fair to assume rider Z is doping too.

 

[robertmooreheadlane]

I would again point out the inherent unfairness of assuming rider Z is a doper because rider A through Y doped.

So rider Z is living on his own in a hut away from every doctor, soigneur, race director and sports physiologist associated with cycling, but still manages to compete and be in a team.


Good luck to him, must be one hell of a weird existence

 

[Benotti69]

My post said nothing wrt Dan Martin.

Excuse me for continuing to discuss Dan Martin in the Dan Martin thread!

It gave examples of clean riders beating doped riders and supposedly totally clean guys beating riders on EPO. This after all is what you are claiming is impossible. I named the two guys who had a clean rep, there might have been more, I don't know.

you dont know and in an age where we have information that would help us know the team refuses! That in my mind = doping. But then i have watched the sport and seen doper after doper win races.

It also highlighted the sometimes random nature of one day races, when logic and supposed advantages go out the window. Of course, you ignored all this and went on another one of your rants.

I hate the lies, hypocrisy and doping the sport continues to produce. If Dan Martin wants people like me to believe he is clean, he needs to bend over more than backwards to convince me! He didn't make the sport the well known infamous cesspit that it is, but he is now a part of it and as i said if he wants me to belive he can beat dopers over 254kms he better be giving me more than his srm numbers.

You are whining about Garmin not releasing data but as I pointed out before, Kwiatowski released his data for the Worlds which shows nothing suspicious. Does this mean Kwiatowski is clean to you? If not then what relevance does releasing data have anyway? Are Omega Pharma suddenly the most transparent team out there and dope free?

I dont give a fig about OPQS. They dope. Everyone knows it. Kwiatowski is a doper. I dont see many talk about how great a clean world champion he is.

Garmin have released a number of profiles before, none of which were considered suspicious by the experts, yet in here every one of them has been interperted as proof of those Garmin riders doping. I think JV has said he has learned his lesson about releasing data. Don't do it, because it will change nobodys mind and people will make what they want from it.

Yeah the 2 important GT profiles (09 & 12) they released pointed to doping with JV making the convenient excuse of machine calibration error. Now if I was running a clean team I would want the machine tested and the tests redone to get the correct numbers for my riders. It would be important to know if my riders were doping on the side. But nah JV waves it away as is the usual in this sport with the lame excuse and does no more.

When the sport shows some real change then we can look to performances and give them the benefit of the doubt, but until then, until the riders go the extra mile and show us how they achieve these wins, I wont be giving anyone the benefit, especially not a team with so much knowledge of doping and how to avoid getting caught with a rigorous internal testing regime that results are not published. JV could give all the team data to a credible independent specialist and ask him to report back to a credible publication about his findings. JV says lots, thinks Tinkoff is '...Brother from another Mother'...take JV at his word or at his spin.

The expression, "one born every minute" could have been coined for cycling fans

 

[Benotti69]

I would again point out the inherent unfairness of assuming rider Z is a doper because rider A through Y doped.

No one is doing that, so your obfuscation fails.

When A through Y are doping how does Z beat them and their doped teams?

That is what is being discussed.

 

[the sceptic]

So rider Z is living on his own in a hut away from every doctor, soigneur, race director and sports physiologist associated with cycling, but still manages to compete and be in a team.


Good luck to him, must be one hell of a weird existence

He lives in the magical land of unicorns with team sky.

 

[Benotti69]

He lives in the magical land of unicorns with team sky.

AKA Girona..........

 

[vavafroome]

No one is doing that, so your obfuscation fails.

When A through Y are doping how does Z beat them and their doped teams?

That is what is being discussed.

good post

im fairly new to cycling was very naive to the doping side, how 2months browsing here can open your eyes, good discussion.

 

[TailWindHome]

I am struggling to understand how this is supposed to be unfair. Can you explain?

It appears to me that if a sample of 25 riders are 100% doping, then it would be fair to assume rider Z is doping too.

Look it from the perspective of rider Z.

 

[pmcg76]

Excuse me for continuing to discuss Dan Martin in the Dan Martin thread!



you dont know and in an age where we have information that would help us know the team refuses! That in my mind = doping. But then i have watched the sport and seen doper after doper win races.



I hate the lies, hypocrisy and doping the sport continues to produce. If Dan Martin wants people like me to believe he is clean, he needs to bend over more than backwards to convince me! He didn't make the sport the well known infamous cesspit that it is, but he is now a part of it and as i said if he wants me to belive he can beat dopers over 254kms he better be giving me more than his srm numbers.



I dont give a fig about OPQS. They dope. Everyone knows it. Kwiatowski is a doper. I dont see many talk about how great a clean world champion he is.



Yeah the 2 important GT profiles (09 & 12) they released pointed to doping with JV making the convenient excuse of machine calibration error. Now if I was running a clean team I would want the machine tested and the tests redone to get the correct numbers for my riders. It would be important to know if my riders were doping on the side. But nah JV waves it away as is the usual in this sport with the lame excuse and does no more.

When the sport shows some real change then we can look to performances and give them the benefit of the doubt, but until then, until the riders go the extra mile and show us how they achieve these wins, I wont be giving anyone the benefit, especially not a team with so much knowledge of doping and how to avoid getting caught with a rigorous internal testing regime that results are not published. JV could give all the team data to a credible independent specialist and ask him to report back to a credible publication about his findings. JV says lots, thinks Tinkoff is '...Brother from another Mother'...take JV at his word or at his spin.

The expression, "one born every minute" could have been coined for cycling fans

How can a cyclist bend over backward if you are not willing to believe the data provided or consider it irrelevant. Cos you have just said that Kwiatowski provided data but is still a doper. Seriously, whats the point?

As for giving the info to an independent tester, who would be the independent tester and who would pay for the testing? I am pretty sure it would have to be Garmin which then opens up the whole question of impartiablity.

Also, you are not an expert on the Bio-Passport or a physiology expert so I don't know how you can claim that the profiles released showed doping. I don't really weigh in on blood profiles as I simply don't have the required knowledge to do so. Unlike others, I leave that to the experts. The one thing I do know is that the human body does not behave in a robotic or linear manner and I would imagine that is the reason why there is a bit ot leeway in the Bio-Pasport.

And of course you have once again failed to explain how totally clean riders beat guys on EPO in the examples I listed. Amazing how you ramble and ramble but when presented with straightforward examples, you just completely ignore them.

Also you love doing your lists of winners to demonstrate how pervasive doping is, try doing it for the Tour for the last 30 years and see what you come up with.

 

[Benotti69]

How can a cyclist bend over backward if you are not willing to believe the data provided or consider it irrelevant. Cos you have just said that Kwiatowski provided data but is still a doper. Seriously, whats the point?

try reading. Kwiatowski is a doper, rides for a doping team and a doping doctor. Now you want to defend Kwiatowski go do that on the OPQS thread not here.

Martin has not released any data. He has ridden for Garmin for a good few years and JV claims to have done internal testing at a cost of half a million $ a year so that should provide enough for someone credible.

As for giving the info to an independent tester, who would be the independent tester and who would pay for the testing? I am pretty sure it would have to be Garmin which then opens up the whole question of impartiablity.

Why does it have to be Garmin who pays? These things are doable and can be done right if there is the motivation to do it. JV who claims to pay big bucks to make sure he presents a clean team to the sport for sponsors and fans a like has not done much in the manner of showing the world how it is done. When i think of how much good publicity it would generate for the team and the sport, but he has not done it. Wonder why.........

Also, you are not an expert on the Bio-Passport or a physiology expert so I don't know how you can claim that the profiles released showed doping. I don't really weigh in on blood profiles as I simply don't have the required knowledge to do so. Unlike others, I leave that to the experts. The one thing I do know is that the human body does not behave in a robotic or linear manner and I would imagine that is the reason why there is a bit ot leeway in the Bio-Pasport.

Stupid point as i never claimed to be. But when JV was asked about them he put it down to machine calibration error. You obviously accept that even though JV has studied business and not blood science. I dont. I want him as the so called clean team to get it checked, verified and double checked. Because if he does well then it throws the sport into a whole new light doesn't it, but as he didn't we are still left with excuses when anomalies reach the public as we have always been. I think there is a thread on here with a the sad lame excuses. This machine calibration is in there.

And of course you have once again failed to explain how totally clean riders beat guys on EPO in the examples I listed. Amazing how you ramble and ramble but when presented with straightforward examples, you just completely ignore them.

I dont have too. Now i am not ranting and whining but rambling? Play the ball not the man and do make your mind up.

You tell me how clean rider Martin can beat dopers? He aint no Mottet, but you compared him to Mottet. He aint no Delion either, Delion having won the young rider classification in '90TdF. So how does Dan Martin who aint as good as Mottet or Delion win 2 (nearly 3 ) monuments against dopers? Dan Martin the hayfever sufferer.....

Also you love doing your lists of winners to demonstrate how pervasive doping is, try doing it for the Tour for the last 30 years and see what you come up with.

I did a list and now i am a lover of lists. Spot the vitriol....

So you found 2 guys who could be considered clean out of 40 who won the GdL in the last 40 years and you think that proves Martin is clean? How?

I repeat, Martin rides for a team with a known doping history from its founder to many of its riders. Only 1 rider on that team tested positive( retoractively and lied about it many times), the rest beat the testers.

Martin was there at the thick end of the action after 254kms (261 2013 LBL)of monuments and beating dopers.

You tell me how he does that on bread and water? Time for those in sport to do everything in their power to show their wins are achievable and credible without doping if they wished to be viewed as clean. The days of innocent until proven guilty has long passed.

 

[the sceptic]

Look it from the perspective of rider Z.

sorry, still dont understand your point.

 

[IzzyStradlin]

You tell me how he does that on bread and water? Time for those in sport to do everything in their power to show their wins are achievable and credible without doping if they wished to be viewed as clean. The days of innocent until proven guilty has long passed.

He hangs onto the front group for dear life and then tries to surprise them at the end. If someone chases, he loses. If they sit there and look at each other, he wins.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

He hangs onto the front group for dear life and then tries to surprise them at the end. If someone chases, he loses. If they sit there and look at each other, he wins.

It sounds so simple, kinda makes you wonder why noone else does it.

 

[Big Doopie]

Not sure Bassons would have kept silent about it like Dan Martin.

you doooooo know that bassons sat silent while his own doper teammates stole his spot on the tour team, don't you? you doooo know at least that, don't you?

holy crap the complete cycling ignorance...

omerta has strange bedfellows, my friend.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

It sounds so simple, kinda makes you wonder why noone else does it.

People try it all the time. It's just not the case that no one chases on every occasion.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

let's first agree that the burden of proof lies on Garmin. They've been screaming cleanliness off the rooftops, so they should expect extra scrutiny and deliver extra transparency. However, they aren't delivering that. On the contrary, they are instead mocking the doubters (see e.g. Talansky's comments on Di Luca or Vaughters' constant ridiculizing of anybody who dares to question Garmin).
So that, for starters, is very unconvincing.

Fair point. They could def. do more.

that would be a yes.
He's come in 7th in the Vuelta.

He finished +10:38 down on the winner.

There are specialists who claim you couldn't even finish a 3-week stage race without doping. Perhaps I wouldn't go that extreme

But you did anyway...

but any doctor/physiologist without a vested interest in cycling will be able to tell you that 7th in the Vuelta is not achieved on bread and water.

And you can cite some of these doctors/physiologists?

he rides for Garmin, so yes.

So who has he been linked to?

He's won mountain stages in the Vuelta and TdF, he's come second in the Waalse Pijl, he's won Catalunya, Tour of Poland and had other very decent results.
If you look at other winners of the races he's won, all you see is dopers and riders linked with doping.

So he has had some decent results and that is really all you have, no? My actual question was other than results what do you have. Not a lot by the looks of things. I can't exactly remember his GT stage wins so someone else might be able to jump in here. Was there anything really suspect about them?

Out of curiosity, do you have any arguments to assume he's clean?
All I've heard thus far is - he has good genes.
I remember a certain Coyle writing about Lance Armstrong's fabulous genes.

I would say in his favour that

His results show a consistent progression.
In the GTs I do not remember any climbs were he was posting absurd power numbers.
Performance seem to drop over GTs.
I have not heard any stories linking him to doctors or doping.

 

[ralphbert]

you doooooo know that bassons sat silent while his own doper teammates stole his spot on the tour team, don't you? you doooo know at least that, don't you?

holy crap the complete cycling ignorance...

omerta has strange bedfellows, my friend.

Just finished Bassons book. A great read and a refreshingly different outlook on things. Didn't realise he was so tight with Vayer

 

[sniper]

Fair point. They could def. do more.

let's say it's not just a fair point, it's a crucial point.

He finished +10:38 down on the winner.

And you can cite some of these doctors/physiologists?

It was common discussion in the nineties after Festina. Many observers noticed that at the prolevel it's unhealthy to try and finish the TdF without doping, and that in order to fight doping the first thing to do should be to make the parcours less tough. Did the parcours of GTs get any less tough since then? I don't think so. At present, calls from medical people to legalize doping are borne out of the same consideration: without doping GTs are simply too tough.
Btw, I can cite one doctor who challenges the claim that it is impossible to finish the TdF without doping Harm Kuipers.
A minor footnote is that the same doctor also thinks doping doesn't make you stronger, and that the USADA file doesn't prove Armstrong used EPO.
Iow, he believes in unicorns. Do you?

And you can cite some of these doctors/physiologists?

If JV, Johnny Weltz, Allen Lim, Matt White and Girona (home of dodgy docs) aren't dodgy enough for you, consider Carlos Gonzalez Haro, a former Real Madrid phlebotomist.
On a side, if connections to dodgy doctors is anything to go by, you should be really worried about Hesjedal, who is working with an ex-USPS doctor who runs an HGH clinic on Hawaii.

The things you say in his favor could also be said in favor of the Iglinsky bro's.
Relatively meaningless parameters one way or the other.

 

[Benotti69]

He hangs onto the front group for dear life and then tries to surprise them at the end. If someone chases, he loses. If they sit there and look at each other, he wins.

yeah of course he does, if only the other lazy nutella eating, stopping at cafés for coffee on training rides riders thought of that!!!

 

[Benotti69]

you doooooo know that bassons sat silent while his own doper teammates stole his spot on the tour team, don't you? you doooo know at least that, don't you?

holy crap the complete cycling ignorance...

omerta has strange bedfellows, my friend.

You dooooo know that this is the Dan Martin thread dont you?

Bassons is human, unlike Martin who can apparently whoop dopers after hanging on for dear life while clean......

 

[Big Doopie]

You dooooo know that this is the Dan Martin thread dont you?

Bassons is human, unlike Martin who can apparently whoop dopers after hanging on for dear life while clean......

You doooooooo know that you were the one who tried to make a false comparison with bassoons in the first place, don't you?

You doooooooo know that you failed to address the fact that my post completely destroys your false comparison, and thus your entire argument?

However -- and sooooooooo surprisingly! (LOL) -- you choose to ignore that element and hide behind misdirection. nicely played.

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

You doooooooo know that you were the one who tried to make a false comparison with bassoons in the first place, don't you?

You doooooooo know that you failed to address the fact that my post completely destroys your false comparison, and thus your entire argument?

However -- and sooooooooo surprisingly! (LOL) -- you choose to ignore that element and hide behind misdirection. nicely played.

Meet Benotti69.

 

[Benotti69]

FAO BENOTTI

This is a serious question, id just like to know something? You have stated on numerous ocasions that it is impossible to win clean in the pro peleton against dopers. Could you clarify something for me? Was Bassons doping in the 1999 Dauphine when he won stage 8 or was everyone else during that race also clean?

You doooooooo know that you were the one who tried to make a false comparison with bassoons in the first place, don't you?

You doooooooo know that you failed to address the fact that my post completely destroys your false comparison, and thus your entire argument?

However -- and sooooooooo surprisingly! (LOL) -- you choose to ignore that element and hide behind misdirection. nicely played.

Ooooooooooooooooooooothers introduced Bassons as a clean winner beating dopers. But you have woooooooooooood for me obviously.

Meet Benotti69.

Troll much

 

[pmcg76]

Martin was there at the thick end of the action after 254kms (261 2013 LBL)of monuments and beating dopers.

You tell me how he does that on bread and water? Time for those in sport to do everything in their power to show their wins are achievable and credible without doping if they wished to be viewed as clean. The days of innocent until proven guilty has long passed.

Firstly how would anyone have any idea of Martin's talent level in relation to Mottet or Delion. It is you that is arguing everyone is blood doping so comparing a rider from this era to Mottet or Delion is pure folly in terms of comparing ability. Looking at their respective results, Martin would not be far of either rider in terms of talent at age 24.

Also LeMond suffered from hayfever and Mottet also suffered from the same or sinuses or something, don't remember which. Willy Voet mentioned that when Mottet had his aliments treated, he would be on fire. So another one of your points out the window.

This is very simple, you claim it is not possible for a clean rider to beat a blood doped/EPO rider. I am saying I believe it is possible on occassion, particularly in a one day race or a given stage of a GT. I have provided examples of this happening and to throw another one in there, Mottet beating Bugno on the Pordoi Pass stage in the 1990 Giro, the toughest stage of that edition. I have backed up my postion with several examples now. I don't need to explain how Martin beat dopers in a one day race on bread and water because I have already provided prior evidence of this happening.

This is a bit like someone claiming something never happened, being provided with evidence that it did in fact happen but still claiming it didn't happen.

It is up to you to explain how these results happened when you claim it is impossible. My bet is you can't or won't.