Dave Brailsford - cycling genius

[Ramon Koran]

Re: Re:

this year it appears that team sky tactics............had improved as much as

........da dawgs descending..........................

Mark L

+1

But since when did the Clinic ever care about tactics or skill?

FWIW, I think this years victory was incredibly close, if Porte hadn't recovered enough to help Froome on the Alpe, he'd have lost.......what would the clinic get upset about then

You do realise that only 15 riders finished within 1 hour of Froome. 4 of them GT winners. Last time only 15 riders could finish under an hour down on the winner, 1997.

But since when skyfans ever look past what Sky tell them.

That indicates not more but less doping, in the epo era racing was much closer compared to the 60's, 70's, 80's. We now have gaps similar to the 60's-80's era, seems positive to me.

Reads 1997. Interprets as 60s-80s.

Light goes on.

So even if Brailsford doesn't tell them what to think, they will think it anyway.

Amazeballs.

My point is that big gaps are more common in pre blood doping than during the blood doping era. We can therefore confidently say that the epo era is over. Doping might still be going on but not with huge effect on the racing.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

EPO era ain't over if it's still being used.

This is non-negotiable.

It's still being used.

 

[gazr99]

Re:

EPO era ain't over if it's still being used.

This is non-negotiable.

It's still being used.

Say hypothetically that only 2% of the peloton are using EPO, would you still consider it the EPO era?

 

[Ramon Koran]

Re:

EPO era ain't over if it's still being used.

This is non-negotiable.

It's still being used.

I don't believe Froome or Contador would be so weak in the 3rd week if they were using epo.

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

EPO era ain't over if it's still being used.

This is non-negotiable.

It's still being used.

I don't believe Froome or Contador would be so weak in the 3rd week if they were using epo.

that makes no sense. Froome was likely on EPO when he did a 45 minute ascent of Alpe d huez (he was on a team that was using it).

But without it he will be able to go 5 mins faster?

Your logic seems like kerrison's.

 

[Ramon Koran]

Re: Re:

EPO era ain't over if it's still being used.

This is non-negotiable.

It's still being used.

I don't believe Froome or Contador would be so weak in the 3rd week if they were using epo.

that makes no sense. Froome was likely on EPO when he did a 45 minute ascent of Alpe d huez (he was on a team that was using it).

But without it he will be able to go 5 mins faster?

Your logic seems like kerrison's.

I don't understand your logic, Froome had lower numbers on the alps than on la Pierre, indicating a reduced hermocratic level=no epo. Had Froome been on epo his level would have been constant throughout the Tour.

 

[Lyon]

Smaller gaps are a consequence of the bio passport etc. This in turn means that the days of Edita Rumsas and Motoman is over and that teams/groups of riders have to become more sofisticated in how they go about transporting/using drugs, which is a matter of money. This, of course, is what Brailsford mean by 'marginal gains' and what Vaughters mean when he says Sky can buy the best riders in the world.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

this year it appears that team sky tactics............had improved as much as

........da dawgs descending..........................

Mark L

+1

But since when did the Clinic ever care about tactics or skill?

FWIW, I think this years victory was incredibly close, if Porte hadn't recovered enough to help Froome on the Alpe, he'd have lost.......what would the clinic get upset about then

You do realise that only 15 riders finished within 1 hour of Froome. 4 of them GT winners. Last time only 15 riders could finish under an hour down on the winner, 1997.

But since when skyfans ever look past what Sky tell them.

That indicates not more but less doping, in the epo era racing was much closer compared to the 60's, 70's, 80's. We now have gaps similar to the 60's-80's era, seems positive to me.

Hang on 2015 is comparable to 1997, not the 60s, 70s and 80s. Way to obfuscate and troll.

 

[Saint Unix]

Re: Re:

That indicates not less but more doping, in the EPO era racing was much faster compared to the 60's, 70's, 80's. We now have times similar to the 90's-00's era, seems negative to me.

Add a bit of twisting words, and now it's about climbing times. Interesting...

 

[del1962]

Re: Re:

I dont think anyone has an aim to cause harm. I think folks just resent the fantasies, and offer to rebut them with the truth. folks get indignant when people talk about marginal gains and SKY. I was empathetic to Wiggins and his life story, but for heavens sake, if people want to throw it in their face, and deny the history and doping in the sport, and say they are riding without dope. I would be happy for Froome and Sky, as long as they do not say they are clean and it is their marginal gains BS

Folks are just jealous, bitter haters because they couldn't get in to Gordonstoun. You know it's true.

If you go to Gordonstoun you never ride a bike, you ride a horse, are chauffeured in a Rolls-Royce and play rugger (but not RL like Brad's kid), well except Boris, but he only rides a bike for votes

yes I know Boris went to Eton

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

this year it appears that team sky tactics............had improved as much as

........da dawgs descending..........................

Mark L

+1

But since when did the Clinic ever care about tactics or skill?

FWIW, I think this years victory was incredibly close, if Porte hadn't recovered enough to help Froome on the Alpe, he'd have lost.......what would the clinic get upset about then

What has changed in Sky tactics this year?

Everyone who has watched the sport of cycling right from its creation in 1999, knows that the greatest, most skilful tactic is to have all 9 riders at the front for as long as possible. Then there's no need to dope

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

this year it appears that team sky tactics............had improved as much as

........da dawgs descending..........................

Mark L

+1

But since when did the Clinic ever care about tactics or skill?

FWIW, I think this years victory was incredibly close, if Porte hadn't recovered enough to help Froome on the Alpe, he'd have lost.......what would the clinic get upset about then

Lance also had the best tactics? as did Indurai?

I bet you don't know half as much about tactics as the average clinic poster. Certainly not LS. so its a bit rich of you to claim advantage on that issue.

 

[Saint Unix]

To be fair, the 'every rider in front' tactic is a fantastic tactic is a fantastic tactic if you have the strongest riders in the race.

But how do you get the strongest riders in the race? Exactly.

 

[del1962]

Re:

To be fair, the 'every rider in front' tactic is a fantastic tactic is a fantastic tactic if you have the strongest riders in the race.

But how do you get the strongest riders in the race? Exactly.

Just looking at stage 20 in isolation Sky put riders on the front at start of first climb to control the pace (not too fast) then other teams not happy with the slow pace took over AG2R first, Astana (I think later), so in this case it does not necessarily mean the strongest riders

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

If you go to Gordonstoun you never ride a bike, you ride a horse, are chauffeured in a Rolls-Royce and play rugger (but not RL like Brad's kid), well except Boris, but he only rides a bike for votes
yes I know Boris went to Eton

but he did classics at oxford and Barclays sponsored them, the bikes this is

 

[hulkgogan]

Alexi Grewal said that you could get away with race tactics in the States but in Europe tactics were overrated; they just relentlessly pummelled everyone over the head until only the strongest guys were left at the end.

 

[coinneach]

Re: Re:

this year it appears that team sky tactics............had improved as much as

........da dawgs descending..........................

Mark L

+1

But since when did the Clinic ever care about tactics or skill?

FWIW, I think this years victory was incredibly close, if Porte hadn't recovered enough to help Froome on the Alpe, he'd have lost.......what would the clinic get upset about then

Lance also had the best tactics? as did Indurai?

I bet you don't know half as much about tactics as the average clinic poster. Certainly not LS. so its a bit rich of you to claim advantage on that issue.

I wouldn't claim to know more about tactics than LS, I hope if I have ANY tactical awareness advantage over some other clinic posters, it'd be in open mindedness. I often saw other teams like Moviestar Tinkoff and Astana putting the hammer down, while Sky rode defensively to protect the yellow jersey.
Sky's tactics in the giro didn't work, whereas in this tour, they did, just.
It certainly helped not having a home nation sprinter to look after as well as a GC rider.
I saw Roche as a better road captain than Eisel; maybe he was just luckier, or suffered less bad luck.
As this is the Brailsford thread, I wouldn't give him much credit for the tactics in this race, though he might claim otherwise.

 

[simoni]

Re: Re:

this year it appears that team sky tactics............had improved as much as

........da dawgs descending..........................

Mark L

+1

But since when did the Clinic ever care about tactics or skill?

FWIW, I think this years victory was incredibly close, if Porte hadn't recovered enough to help Froome on the Alpe, he'd have lost.......what would the clinic get upset about then

You do realise that only 15 riders finished within 1 hour of Froome. 4 of them GT winners. Last time only 15 riders could finish under an hour down on the winner, 1997.

But since when skyfans ever look past what Sky tell them.

What does this stat mean? Why?

 

[ebandit]

this stat sounds good...............but like climbing times is meaningless unless all factors/

variables are considered.......................

Mark L

 

[The Carrot]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/33675029

42 seconds into this footage of team Sky celebrating on the team bus, Sir Dave makes a toast to: "An unbelievable victory"! Seriously.

At last, he says something many of us agree with.

 

[doperhopper]

Re:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/33675029

42 seconds into this footage of team Sky celebrating on the team bus, Sir Dave makes a toast to: "An unbelievable victory"! Seriously.

At last, he says something many of us agree with.

Translation: still can't believe we escaped these new tests traps... (and there are already a few, see e.g. the "post-epo era" thread)... as if som overlord protected us

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

this year it appears that team sky tactics............had improved as much as

........da dawgs descending..........................

Mark L

+1

But since when did the Clinic ever care about tactics or skill?

FWIW, I think this years victory was incredibly close, if Porte hadn't recovered enough to help Froome on the Alpe, he'd have lost.......what would the clinic get upset about then

You do realise that only 15 riders finished within 1 hour of Froome. 4 of them GT winners. Last time only 15 riders could finish under an hour down on the winner, 1997.

But since when skyfans ever look past what Sky tell them.

What does this stat mean? Why?

The guys at the pointy end of the race were light years ahead of the rest? Have a look at the final GC standings and time gaps for 1997, it might open eyes.

 

[simoni]

Re: Re:

this year it appears that team sky tactics............had improved as much as

........da dawgs descending..........................

Mark L

+1

But since when did the Clinic ever care about tactics or skill?

FWIW, I think this years victory was incredibly close, if Porte hadn't recovered enough to help Froome on the Alpe, he'd have lost.......what would the clinic get upset about then

You do realise that only 15 riders finished within 1 hour of Froome. 4 of them GT winners. Last time only 15 riders could finish under an hour down on the winner, 1997.

But since when skyfans ever look past what Sky tell them.

What does this stat mean? Why?

The guys at the pointy end of the race were light years ahead of the rest? Have a look at the final GC standings and time gaps for 1997, it might open eyes.

I presume that because 1997 was a doped tour that means 2014 is too?

So OK then, I imagine 1996 is considered as doped as 1997. In 1996 26 riders finished within an hour of the winner.

OK, so part of a big mountain stage that year was snowed off so what about 1995 - 23 within an hour. 1994? whooooaaahhhh - 29 within an hour.

Still don't get what the inference and conclusion here is? It tells us absolutely nothing other than it doesn't happen very often. To draw a link between this stat and doping is hokum.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

+1

But since when did the Clinic ever care about tactics or skill?

FWIW, I think this years victory was incredibly close, if Porte hadn't recovered enough to help Froome on the Alpe, he'd have lost.......what would the clinic get upset about then

You do realise that only 15 riders finished within 1 hour of Froome. 4 of them GT winners. Last time only 15 riders could finish under an hour down on the winner, 1997.

But since when skyfans ever look past what Sky tell them.

What does this stat mean? Why?

The guys at the pointy end of the race were light years ahead of the rest? Have a look at the final GC standings and time gaps for 1997, it might open eyes.

I presume that because 1997 was a doped tour that means 2014 is too?

So OK then, I imagine 1996 is considered as doped as 1997. In 1996 26 riders finished within an hour of the winner.

OK, so part of a big mountain stage that year was snowed off so what about 1995 - 23 within an hour. 1994? whooooaaahhhh - 29 within an hour.

Still don't get what the inference and conclusion here is? It tells us absolutely nothing other than it doesn't happen very often. To draw a link between this stat and doping is hokum.

hokum?

It would be hokum if the sport had cleaned up, but it hasn't.

It would be hokum if those is in the sport rejected former dopers, doping doctors, doping soigneurs, etc but they dont, they are embraced.

It is all hokum in your eyes because you want it to be, but that dont make it.

 

[simoni]

Re: Re:

[quote="

hokum?

It would be hokum if the sport had cleaned up, but it hasn't.

It would be hokum if those is in the sport rejected former dopers, doping doctors, doping soigneurs, etc but they dont, they are embraced.

It is all hokum in your eyes because you want it to be, but that dont make it.

You didnt read a word I wrote did you?

Its almost funny. You've done exactly what you accuse me of but in reverse.