Dave Brailsford - cycling genius

[gillan1969]

well another point overlooked is that they perform so well because of the aggregation of marginal gains

however...the unravelling over the years shows us that froome has never had a standard 'fitness' test, they appear not to have weighed him, he had (until rcentely never trained on a TT bike) the coaches don't speak to the doctors and the doctors don't speak to the coaches and DB doesn't know who makes the call on if a medicine is performance enhancing if given as TUE (the MP eventually giving up and presuming he meant the doctor, although may have meant the rider) - list certainly not exhaustive

turns out that kind of leaves us with.....eh pillows and...washing hands

 

[Franklin]

It's all very stupid.

As I said for years, Dave Brailsford has a long record of extremely unlikely stories and even verifiable lies. it's just that the media was having a blast with the hero-story as that sold articles. Now it's unraveled at amusing speed, but anyone with half a brain could see the amazing gaps in DB's stories for years.

Heck, you only need to look at his hiring of Leinders and Sean Yates to have ammo for an epic grilling. And that's just the lowest hanging fruit.

He's comfortable lying.

Exactly.

 

[sniper]

Re:

It's all very stupid.

As I said for years, Dave Brailsford has a long record of extremely unlikely stories and even verifiable lies. it's just that the media was having a blast with the hero-story as that sold articles. Now it's unraveled at amusing speed, but anyone with half a brain could see the amazing gaps in DB's stories for years.

Heck, you only need to look at his hiring of Leinders and Sean Yates to have ammo for an epic grilling. And that's just the lowest hanging fruit.

He's comfortable lying.

Exactly.

Basically since their inception Sky have only hired obvious dopers.

 

[MatParker117]

At the end of the matter if BC and Sky produce documentary evidence saying that it was Flumicil then that's the end and this whole thing while a disaster from a PR standpoint is basically over. However if the person who leaked this has documentary evidence saying otherwise then both Greater Manchester and the Metropolitan Police can start investigating and they have access to a lot more tools than UKAD. Because at that point it's a criminal matter and things such as warrants can be used.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Interesting thread here. Suggestion that British Cycling leak about Simon Yates ADRV might be related to the close ties Brailsford maintains at BC?

https://twitter.com/kenem/status/811648901778325504

Aha ! I posted at the time that S.Yates positive was leaked by BC, but it seemed to go through to the keeper - There was little interest in discussing this at the time.

Agreed, there as a lot of heat on Sutton at that time along with the story kit sales. Then BOOM! The Yates positive leaks and all the attention goes onto him.

 

[gillan1969]

Re:

At the end of the matter if BC and Sky produce documentary evidence saying that it was Flumicil then that's the end and this whole thing while a disaster from a PR standpoint is basically over. However if the person who leaked this has documentary evidence saying otherwise then both Greater Manchester and the Metropolitan Police can start investigating and they have access to a lot more tools than UKAD. Because at that point it's a criminal matter and things such as warrants can be used.

#froomefaxpartdeux

 

[yaco]

Re:

At the end of the matter if BC and Sky produce documentary evidence saying that it was Flumicil then that's the end and this whole thing while a disaster from a PR standpoint is basically over. However if the person who leaked this has documentary evidence saying otherwise then both Greater Manchester and the Metropolitan Police can start investigating and they have access to a lot more tools than UKAD. Because at that point it's a criminal matter and things such as warrants can be used.

Nailed it.

 

[MartinGT]

https://twitter.com/140CharTerror/status/811983623494705152

 

[Bianchi928]

What I find interesting is what the behaviour during stage 17 of the 2012 tour by Sky reveals given the new facts on the record:

We now know that SDB knew that Wiggins was, at the very least, morally questionable and abusing the TUE system. I think it is also widely accepted, that SDB / Sutton / Sky stopped Froome from attacking Wiggins up the Peyresourde and potentially going on to win the 2012 tour ahead of him.

If you follow David Walsh's reasoning that pressure for results finally told, sending a desperate Brailsford / Wiggins / Sutton / Freeman rogue to win at all costs - then why, when you have a 100% clean rider in froome running away with it, would you stop it. At the very least you would have let it play out in hope. It would be a win which would be legitimate / far less risky.

Its hardly the behavior of a strategic genius with a moral compass. Unless you know there would be little moral difference between froome and wiggins - implying wider spread doping. Or you value being commercial over ethics which would result in widespread doping. Or you are an irrational idiot.

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

At the end of the matter if BC and Sky produce documentary evidence saying that it was Flumicil then that's the end and this whole thing while a disaster from a PR standpoint is basically over. However if the person who leaked this has documentary evidence saying otherwise then both Greater Manchester and the Metropolitan Police can start investigating and they have access to a lot more tools than UKAD. Because at that point it's a criminal matter and things such as warrants can be used.

Nailed it.

c'mon guys...it makes it worse if anything...

an innocuous substance with a paper trail....better try and cover that up then

BTW I have this opportunity...how are your finances currently? I can get written testimonies.....

 

[red_flanders]

Re:

What I find interesting is what the behaviour during stage 17 of the 2012 tour by Sky reveals given the new facts on the record:

We now know that SDB knew that Wiggins was, at the very least, morally questionable and abusing the TUE system. I think it is also widely accepted, that SDB / Sutton / Sky stopped Froome from attacking Wiggins up the Peyresourde and potentially going on to win the 2012 tour ahead of him.

If you follow David Walsh's reasoning that pressure for results finally told, sending a desperate Brailsford / Wiggins / Sutton / Freeman rogue to win at all costs - then why, when you have a 100% clean rider in froome running away with it, would you stop it. At the very least you would have let it play out in hope. It would be a win which would be legitimate / far less risky.

Its hardly the behavior of a strategic genius with a moral compass. Unless you know there would be little moral difference between froome and wiggins - implying wider spread doping. Or you value being commercial over ethics which would result in widespread doping. Or you are an irrational idiot.

Interesting post, but I don't think it had much to do with doping. It had everything to do with who was the anointed, the team leader, the person Sky wanted to win the tour for all the marketing benefit it had. Maybe even some "not sure how well Froome will hold up to the pressure" but I kind of doubt even that. The Olympic year fix was in from waaaay back. Wiggins would be the one. Whatever it took.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

What I find interesting is what the behaviour during stage 17 of the 2012 tour by Sky reveals given the new facts on the record:

We now know that SDB knew that Wiggins was, at the very least, morally questionable and abusing the TUE system. I think it is also widely accepted, that SDB / Sutton / Sky stopped Froome from attacking Wiggins up the Peyresourde and potentially going on to win the 2012 tour ahead of him.

If you follow David Walsh's reasoning that pressure for results finally told, sending a desperate Brailsford / Wiggins / Sutton / Freeman rogue to win at all costs - then why, when you have a 100% clean rider in froome running away with it, would you stop it. At the very least you would have let it play out in hope. It would be a win which would be legitimate / far less risky.

Its hardly the behavior of a strategic genius with a moral compass. Unless you know there would be little moral difference between froome and wiggins - implying wider spread doping. Or you value being commercial over ethics which would result in widespread doping. Or you are an irrational idiot.

Interesting post, but I don't think it had much to do with doping. It had everything to do with who was the anointed, the team leader, the person Sky wanted to win the tour for all the marketing benefit it had. Maybe even some "not sure how well Froome will hold up to the pressure" but I kind of doubt even that. The Olympic year fix was in from waaaay back. Wiggins would be the one. Whatever it took.

Fully agree. It was Wiggins and only Wiggins, whatever it took. Which was a lot of training, performance enhancing drugs and a rigged flattened route.

 

[B_Ugli]

The other thing I found interesting after watching DB's performance at the enquiry is this.

When Team Sky first started they went out of their way to say how they would do things different and not follow the conventional way of doing things in Pro Cycling. However despite what we know about cross border trafficking of medicine by Willy Voet & Motoman this is simply not on his radar of thinking.

Its a matter of perception, anyone in their right mind (and knowing the history of cycling) would say:

Hang on if this ever became public it would look really bad so although it is a bit more of a hassle to procure this medication from a local pharmacy in France, that hassle far outweighs the potential reputational damage and connotations compared to getting it flown out by a member of team personnel.

The other thing that irks me about this whole thing is DB's attempt to normalise unacceptable bordering on illegal behaviour.

Any person going through an airport is asked if they packed their own baggage, and at the checking desk is a list of substances and things you need to declare. The idea that Simon Cope would just take a jiffy bag no questions asked onto a plane in this day and age without asking "okay whats in it in case I get stopped" is unthinkable. I thought if you were taking medicine through an airport you had to prove it was for you or your child?? What if there was a gun or class A drugs in that bag??

Either way DB firstly not recognising the historical connotations of transporting medicine in this way and then attempting to 'normalise' what is bizarre behaviour by Simon Cope just shows what they are all on.

 

[kingjr]

I have to take medicine with me everytime I fly somewhere, I never had to declare anything.

 

[sniper]

Maybe.
But ugly Bs point still stands.
Absolutely no way on earth that Cope didn't know what he was transporting.
It's another insult to the brain that makes the USPS days seem bright.

 

[Armchair cyclist]

Did Cope not say at some stage that he thought it was pedals that he was carrying? How similar can medicines be to pedals in the way they feel in the hand? Or maybe be just meant that he was peddling. Or maybe the -al suffix was a hurried afterthought.

 

[thehog]

Re:

Did Cope not say at some stage that he thought it was pedals that he was carrying? How similar can medicines be to pedals in the way they feel in the hand? Or maybe be just meant that he was peddling. Or maybe the -al suffix was a hurried afterthought.

Cope said it might have been speedplay pedals, not reconciling that Sky & Wiggins use Shimano pedals. Terrible liar in other words, with an equally poor memory!

 

[thehog]

The other thing I found interesting after watching DB's performance at the enquiry is this.

When Team Sky first started they went out of their way to say how they would do things different and not follow the conventional way of doing things in Pro Cycling. However despite what we know about cross border trafficking of medicine by Willy Voet & Motoman this is simply not on his radar of thinking.

Its a matter of perception, anyone in their right mind (and knowing the history of cycling) would say:

Hang on if this ever became public it would look really bad so although it is a bit more of a hassle to procure this medication from a local pharmacy in France, that hassle far outweighs the potential reputational damage and connotations compared to getting it flown out by a member of team personnel.

The other thing that irks me about this whole thing is DB's attempt to normalise unacceptable bordering on illegal behaviour.

Any person going through an airport is asked if they packed their own baggage, and at the checking desk is a list of substances and things you need to declare. The idea that Simon Cope would just take a jiffy bag no questions asked onto a plane in this day and age without asking "okay whats in it in case I get stopped" is unthinkable. I thought if you were taking medicine through an airport you had to prove it was for you or your child?? What if there was a gun or class A drugs in that bag??

Either way DB firstly not recognising the historical connotations of transporting medicine in this way and then attempting to 'normalise' what is bizarre behaviour by Simon Cope just shows what they are all on.

Brailsford never tried to do it the right way, he just had to learn how to pull it off when your athletes are not based in one location. Having a track team in Manchester it's very easy to dope the riders and dispose of the evidence with no one finding out, like footballers. The minute you have to start transporting drugs through Europe is when you get yourself into problems and requires more than a doctor, coach and cyclist.

That took one season and Leinders was clearly a consultant for this. He was there to provide the knowledge, know how, experience and connections for a doping program. Leinders has no need to get his hands dirty again, he was an advisor.

 

[doperhopper]

The other thing I found interesting after watching DB's performance at the enquiry is this.

When Team Sky first started they went out of their way to say how they would do things different and not follow the conventional way of doing things in Pro Cycling. However despite what we know about cross border trafficking of medicine by Willy Voet & Motoman this is simply not on his radar of thinking.

Its a matter of perception, anyone in their right mind (and knowing the history of cycling) would say:

Hang on if this ever became public it would look really bad so although it is a bit more of a hassle to procure this medication from a local pharmacy in France, that hassle far outweighs the potential reputational damage and connotations compared to getting it flown out by a member of team personnel.

The other thing that irks me about this whole thing is DB's attempt to normalise unacceptable bordering on illegal behaviour.

Any person going through an airport is asked if they packed their own baggage, and at the checking desk is a list of substances and things you need to declare. The idea that Simon Cope would just take a jiffy bag no questions asked onto a plane in this day and age without asking "okay whats in it in case I get stopped" is unthinkable. I thought if you were taking medicine through an airport you had to prove it was for you or your child?? What if there was a gun or class A drugs in that bag??

Either way DB firstly not recognising the historical connotations of transporting medicine in this way and then attempting to 'normalise' what is bizarre behaviour by Simon Cope just shows what they are all on.

Brailsford never tried to do it the right way, he just had to learn how to pull it off when your athletes are not based in one location. Having a track team in Manchester it's very easy to dope the riders and dispose of the evidence with no one finding out, like footballers. The minute you have to start transporting drugs through Europe is when you get yourself into problems and requires more than a doctor, coach and cyclist.

That took one season and Leinders was clearly a consultant for this. He was there to provide the knowledge, know how, experience and connections for a doping program. Leinders has no need to get his hands dirty again, he was an advisor.

true story - already TeamUniballer knew how important it is to master these marginal motoman gains

 

[arthurvandelay]

Re: Re:

Did Cope not say at some stage that he thought it was pedals that he was carrying? How similar can medicines be to pedals in the way they feel in the hand? Or maybe be just meant that he was peddling. Or maybe the -al suffix was a hurried afterthought.

Cope said it might have been speedplay pedals, not reconciling that Sky & Wiggins use Shimano pedals. Terrible liar in other words, with an equally poor memory!

The Fluimicil you see was part of the whole "marginal gains" ethos: this drug is an excellent pedal cleat lubricant, allowing Sir Wiggins to use any pedal he damn well pleases on a given day.

It's easy to weave a plausible excuse if you have flexible thinking!!!

 

[thehog]

The other thing I found interesting after watching DB's performance at the enquiry is this.

When Team Sky first started they went out of their way to say how they would do things different and not follow the conventional way of doing things in Pro Cycling. However despite what we know about cross border trafficking of medicine by Willy Voet & Motoman this is simply not on his radar of thinking.

Its a matter of perception, anyone in their right mind (and knowing the history of cycling) would say:

Hang on if this ever became public it would look really bad so although it is a bit more of a hassle to procure this medication from a local pharmacy in France, that hassle far outweighs the potential reputational damage and connotations compared to getting it flown out by a member of team personnel.

The other thing that irks me about this whole thing is DB's attempt to normalise unacceptable bordering on illegal behaviour.

Any person going through an airport is asked if they packed their own baggage, and at the checking desk is a list of substances and things you need to declare. The idea that Simon Cope would just take a jiffy bag no questions asked onto a plane in this day and age without asking "okay whats in it in case I get stopped" is unthinkable. I thought if you were taking medicine through an airport you had to prove it was for you or your child?? What if there was a gun or class A drugs in that bag??

Either way DB firstly not recognising the historical connotations of transporting medicine in this way and then attempting to 'normalise' what is bizarre behaviour by Simon Cope just shows what they are all on.

Brailsford never tried to do it the right way, he just had to learn how to pull it off when your athletes are not based in one location. Having a track team in Manchester it's very easy to dope the riders and dispose of the evidence with no one finding out, like footballers. The minute you have to start transporting drugs through Europe is when you get yourself into problems and requires more than a doctor, coach and cyclist.

That took one season and Leinders was clearly a consultant for this. He was there to provide the knowledge, know how, experience and connections for a doping program. Leinders has no need to get his hands dirty again, he was an advisor.

true story - already TeamUniballer knew how important it is to master these marginal motoman gains

I said this a long time ago, hiring Leinders was 100% what you had to do if you were a new team racing in Europe needing a program to go undetected. Brailsford of course couldn't pay Leinders under the table so he came up with the "consultation" path of X days per year paid by Sky officially. All Leinders had to do was advise Sir Dave and speak with Zorzoli and have Leinders weigh a rider or two. Job done.

 

[sniper]

The other thing I found interesting after watching DB's performance at the enquiry is this.

When Team Sky first started they went out of their way to say how they would do things different and not follow the conventional way of doing things in Pro Cycling. However despite what we know about cross border trafficking of medicine by Willy Voet & Motoman this is simply not on his radar of thinking.

Its a matter of perception, anyone in their right mind (and knowing the history of cycling) would say:

Hang on if this ever became public it would look really bad so although it is a bit more of a hassle to procure this medication from a local pharmacy in France, that hassle far outweighs the potential reputational damage and connotations compared to getting it flown out by a member of team personnel.

The other thing that irks me about this whole thing is DB's attempt to normalise unacceptable bordering on illegal behaviour.

Any person going through an airport is asked if they packed their own baggage, and at the checking desk is a list of substances and things you need to declare. The idea that Simon Cope would just take a jiffy bag no questions asked onto a plane in this day and age without asking "okay whats in it in case I get stopped" is unthinkable. I thought if you were taking medicine through an airport you had to prove it was for you or your child?? What if there was a gun or class A drugs in that bag??

Either way DB firstly not recognising the historical connotations of transporting medicine in this way and then attempting to 'normalise' what is bizarre behaviour by Simon Cope just shows what they are all on.

Brailsford never tried to do it the right way, he just had to learn how to pull it off when your athletes are not based in one location. Having a track team in Manchester it's very easy to dope the riders and dispose of the evidence with no one finding out, like footballers. The minute you have to start transporting drugs through Europe is when you get yourself into problems and requires more than a doctor, coach and cyclist.

That took one season and Leinders was clearly a consultant for this. He was there to provide the knowledge, know how, experience and connections for a doping program. Leinders has no need to get his hands dirty again, he was an advisor.

true story - already TeamUniballer knew how important it is to master these marginal motoman gains

I said this a long time ago, hiring Leinders was 100% what you had to do if you were a new team racing in Europe needing a program to go undetected. Brailsford of course couldn't pay Leinders under the table so he came up with the "consultation" path of X days per year paid by Sky officially. All Leinders had to do was advise Sir Dave and speak with Zorzoli and have Leinders weigh a rider or two. Job done.

Plus, he was present at quite a number of high profile races, including all of the stage races won by Wiggins in 2012 (without exception I think).
My guess is he was pretty good at his job and an expert in keeping riders from glowing up like christmas trees.
It was funny to see the number of Team Sky riders pulling from races due to illnesses skyrocket in 2013 and 14 following the unfortunate departure of Leinders at the end of the 2012 season.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Its a matter of perception, anyone in their right mind (and knowing the history of cycling) would say:

Hang on if this ever became public it would look really bad so although it is a bit more of a hassle to procure this medication from a local pharmacy in France, that hassle far outweighs the potential reputational damage and connotations compared to getting it flown out by a member of team personnel.

Slight correction: Cope was not a member of team personnel. He was, officially, part of the (publicly funded) BC women's team, so for him to be rendering services on BC's dime for the benefit of the (privately funded) Sky professional men's team opens up another level of potential corruption or difficulty.

I've said all the way back to the beginning that the tangled web between the professional Team Sky and the public British Cycling will be problematic if anything starts to unravel because tendrils are everywhere, as there's too much connection between the two to be able to satisfactorily separate them in the public perception. Brailsford is the figurehead of both. Sky already have a much higher budget than the majority of the other pro teams, before they start siphoning off the funds from the publicly-funded BC in the name of national interest vis-à-vis success of British athletes within Team Sky and at the Olympics/Worlds on track and road. Cope has been happy to admit that though his official title was women's team coach he had no real role, so ran errands for the Sky pro team. So in effect he is a Sky employee on top of their enormous funding advantage, paid from the funding of BC, while the BC women's team goes without support, and Cooke and Pooley have to pay their own travel and are seen as of no use to the team other than as a poorly-thought-out cover story for Cope's travel.

This is, in and of itself, something that needs a satisfactory explanation - the difference between the people Cope was working for and the people Cope was supposed to be working for, and the potential siphoning off of funds for a team which is not supposed to be funded in such a fashion.

 

[TheSpud]

Re: Re:

Did Cope not say at some stage that he thought it was pedals that he was carrying? How similar can medicines be to pedals in the way they feel in the hand? Or maybe be just meant that he was peddling. Or maybe the -al suffix was a hurried afterthought.

Cope said it might have been speedplay pedals, not reconciling that Sky & Wiggins use Shimano pedals. Terrible liar in other words, with an equally poor memory!

http://www.velonews.com/2011/07/tour-de-france/tour-pro-bike-bradley-wiggins-pinarello-dogma_183763

Scroll to third picture at the bottom of the page - those don't look like Shimano pedals to me ...

 

[Ironhead Slim]

Re: Re:

Did Cope not say at some stage that he thought it was pedals that he was carrying? How similar can medicines be to pedals in the way they feel in the hand? Or maybe be just meant that he was peddling. Or maybe the -al suffix was a hurried afterthought.

Cope said it might have been speedplay pedals, not reconciling that Sky & Wiggins use Shimano pedals. Terrible liar in other words, with an equally poor memory!

http://www.velonews.com/2011/07/tour-de-france/tour-pro-bike-bradley-wiggins-pinarello-dogma_183763

Scroll to third picture at the bottom of the page - those don't look like Shimano pedals to me ...

Scroll further...
According to the notes, Sir Wiggans (any Sky rider) needs a medical excuse not to use sponsors equipment. Ha, Ha, an internal TUE for his pedals!