Dave Brailsford - cycling genius

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May 26, 2010
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TheSpud said:
thehog said:
TheSpud said:
thehog said:
"I'm a short statement, Sir Bradley Wiggins admitted to taking the grey area substance but was careful to reiterate that it was for medical purposes and not performance enhancement. Wiggins did not name EPO by name but instead referred it to the grey area in his statement to the press, WADA have yet to make a ruling on grey area drugs."

:cool

What ARE you on about?

What a surprise! No one knows what was in the package, along with the Cope trip being "pre-planned" for his speedplay pedals :lol:

IMG_8794.jpg

Cant read the image but if you can show where it says anything in line with the fantasy quote you have above I'll look at it, otherwise its just another news story and irrelevant.

Funny how the Times now irrelevant when it is anti Brailsford. Stop hiding your fanboyism Spud.

The info in that article is all over twitter!
 
Very good article today from Nicole Cooke, we mustn't forget that Cope was women's coach at the time he was couriering drugs for Brailsford/Wiggins with tax payer money....

As the saga developed this year, Cope came up with information entirely new and disturbing to me. In an interview he said that in 2011 he had “been working with Sky a lot and been running training camps with Brad. I spent a month in Mallorca with Brad and the lads motor-pacing.”

Throughout early 2011 I was attempting to get Cope to run a single training camp for the women riders he was meant to be managing. At the world championships in 2010 I had been fourth and lack of teamwork was a factor in not getting a better result. For 2011 I hoped to regain my crown of 2008. Of course we were also looking forward to London 2012, where I would be defending champion.

Eventually I got Cope to agree to a camp to prepare for the world championships in Copenhagen and we both proposed it to Brailsford and Sutton – the same pair who apparently think it fine to fly a courier with a €10 med 1,000 miles across Europe.

I have the email and Sutton’s response turning down the training camp suggestion. Nothing was put in its place, and so the women went to another world championships without having conducted a single team camp. Needless to say our team preparation was insufficient.

On the Wednesday evening prior to the race on Saturday, Cope chaired a team meeting and we agreed one set of tactics. On the Friday night, Shane, who had neither attended the earlier meeting nor watched a race I had ridden all season, convened another team meeting and changed tactics for the finale of the type we had never practiced before. I disagreed with the tactical plan. It was never going to work, given our lack of preparation. Others were less sure of their selection and many had hopes for London 2012 nine months away, therefore I was the single one voicing protest.

Without support, I came fourth again. Lizzie Deignan, the protected rider in the new plan, was delayed by a crash, when positioned in the wrong half of the race in the closing miles. After the post-race drugs test, I came back to the hotel and went to my bedroom. Within seconds, Shane marched in. Behind him the whole team, along with Cope, were ushered round my bed. My room-mate was stunned. Seconds before she had been relaxing on the bed flicking through a magazine, now I had arrived and everyone was in the room to witness Shane berating me in public that it was my fault Lizzie had not won and his recently conceived “masterplan” had not achieved success.

Sutton declined when asked by one of the MPs if he wanted to apologise for his use of inappropriate and discriminatory language to women, as was upheld against him in the recent British Cycling inquiry. Sutton was quick to point out that he had not called a female rider a “***” to her face. He only referred to female riders as “bitches” when talking about them with other men. The MPs could not get an apology from him.

Sutton was acting exactly like he had over a decade before at Welsh Cycling. The bigger question is: who is it that entrusts him with responsibilities his character set is so unsuited to? Earlier this year British Cycling’s then chief executive, Ian Drake, had no idea that Brailsford was paying the wholly publicly funded national cycling coach, Sutton, a significant retainer for his services to Team Sky.


https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2016/dec/29/nicole-cooke-team-sky-british-cycling?CMP=twt_gu
 
One can only hope that everything like is brought to the table in more public hearings. And that they find evidence against more staff like Portal and Cioni (everybody remember his stunning performance when Brad was asked about PEDs by the Belgian TV in "Vive le Vélo", where he immediately ended the interview and left the interviewer with an open mouth).
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Mr.38% said:
One can only hope that everything like is brought to the table in more public hearings. And that they find evidence against more staff like Portal and Cioni (everybody remember his stunning performance when Brad was asked about PEDs by the Belgian TV in "Vive le Vélo", where he immediately ended the interview and left the interviewer with an open mouth).
word on Twitter is Cioni doped already as a junior mtb-er.
His 2004 escapades (htc violation; banned from the worlds; Zorzoli to the rescue with a backdated Exemption) and subsequent demise in 2005 (not performing in his new role as teamleader) are worth recalling too.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Norks74 said:
S.Sutton does seem to be an absolute wan*er of a man.
I like how Cooke describes the incompetence and gender issues without using many words, just two or three most enlightening examples.

Who the hell holds a team meeting in a girls' bedroom?

The rejection of funding for a womens training camp in 2011 when meanwhile Cope is flying around with that jiffy bag is absolutely cringewhorthy.
 
Re: Re:

sniper said:
Norks74 said:
S.Sutton does seem to be an absolute wan*er of a man.
I like how Cooke describes the incompetence and gender issues without using many words, just two or three most enlightening examples.

Who the hell holds a team meeting in a girls' bedroom?

The rejection of funding for a womens training camp in 2011 when meanwhile Cope is flying around with that jiffy bag is absolutely cringewhorthy.

Agreed. Add in there Cookson was Cope's manager at the time and didn't care that he was ferrying drugs for Brailsford rather than coaching the women's team.

Also interesting Lizzie was the "chosen one", clearly she was on the program thus became the rider of choice above all else. Her three missed evidence she was doping.
 
Nicole was never, ever, never in a million years going to be "the chosen one" for British Cycling. She had had to achieve far too much of her career without them directing everything, she could never be trusted to stay "on message". Pooley likewise. Now, ironically, Lizzie can be pretty outspoken herself, and has had plenty to say about British Cycling in the last 18 months that is far from positive, but certainly everything I've seen from British Cycling in the last five years has said to me that Lizzie is the one BC want to lead the road women, and has been all along, regardless of whether that's Lizzie's goal or not. Therefore, this latest detail from Nicole is neither surprising nor really a revelation, but it does fill in some of the blanks for sure. The way they've tried to airbrush Nicole from history is patronising at best and malicious at worst. When a BC spokesperson described Armitstead's rainbow jersey victory in Richmond as "a breakthrough moment for women's cycling in the UK", it made me pretty angry, and I can absolutely understand if Nicole's blood boiled just a bit upon hearing that, considering only six years earlier, and not even before the start of the whole cycling revolution in the UK, Nicole had won the Olympic AND World Championships road races the same season, then seen her team fold saying (almost in these exact words) "mission accomplished", and devoting their funding instead to the much more pressing issue of making sure Rob Hayles got to start the domestic crit circuit.

Of course, when the current hydra-headed behemoth that is British Cycling and its offshoots (including Sky) became the centrepiece of the Olympic revolution, Lizzie was just starting out (going with Cervélo in 2009, where she showed her best stage racing credentials of her entire career, winning the maglia bianca at the Giro Donne), and was clearly groomed to be the next star. This is evidenced to this very day in the way that the commentators with an "in" at British Cycling make absolutely certain to refer to her at all times as a "lovable, hard-working Yorkshire lass". Always "lass", never "girl", never "woman". It's affectionate, it's colloquial. Makes her easier to identify with, supposedly. But the presentation of Lizzie that BC favours is not always in alignment with the presentation Lizzie herself has wanted to present, and it sure as hell isn't in line with the perception of a lot of people who follow women's cycling - and clearly, as we found out when we discovered her overturned ban for the missed tests, a lot of the péloton too - and I can certainly understand if that rubbed Cooke up the wrong way too. When Pooley announced her intention to return for Rio, the first thing Sutton said - the very first thing - was that she would "add another strong engine to support Lizzie". There was never, not for a second, any consideration of a flexible strategy, of any consideration of who would be strongest on the day, who the course suited, etc.. Just "oh good, some more legs to help Armitstead".

So the 2011 tactics story doesn't surprise me at all. Even if you could say - and certainly wouldn't be unjustified in doing so - that the parcours at København meant that Cooke likely couldn't have done any better than she did and that Lizzie's capability from a partly reduced sprint would have made her the better option to begin with. But while I accept that Nicole did certainly play a role in why BC thought her hard to work with, and could be selfish and bolshy, if they'd actually dealt with the tactics beforehand and made it clear what the plan was, rather than leaving the women to it, then changing the plan at the last minute then insulting them for not pulling off the win, maybe she wouldn't have been in such a position. Ironic, then, that Lizzie has been pretty scathing in her opinions regards Shane Sutton in light of the last few months, and has been far from supportive of the system that, on the face of it, you would have thought had benefited her in prioritising her ahead of Cooke and Pooley who, at least at the time, were more proven commodities.

What this really brings to a head, however, is the scale of just how much the women were marginalized, and just how much of the funding that came - albeit indirectly - from public money for the national sporting organ that is British Cycling, was being siphoned off and redirected towards a men's team that already benefits from a much bigger budget than all but one other commercially-sponsored team. And the implication that Cookson, in his role at the time, would have been complicit in this is pretty damning, especially when he happily glosses over such things as there being nothing to see (and especially at the same time as the national race of the country he brought the Worlds to, that he described as an "emerging market" for the sport to cover for inadequate medical provisions, riders passing out and vomiting due to heat, dour racing and no fans, is cancelled due to lack of support). So what exactly did Cope do to justify the money he was paid as a women's coach? It sure as hell doesn't sound like he did any coaching of the women. He supposedly took his role so seriously that, if you take his statements at face value (which we clearly shouldn't) he had no idea where his star riders would be (meeting Emma Pooley in the French Alps when she was racing in the Basque Country), or even what races they would be entering (meeting Nicole Cooke at Liège-Bastogne-Liège, which doesn't even have a women's race). I've been willing to buy the latter as poor communication as it's between Flèche Wallonne and the GP Elsy Jacobs so Cooke may have been in the vicinity for training purposes, but nevertheless, he's admitted to ferrying stuff for Team Sky at LBL, so Nicole may be able to fill us in a bit more on that one too.

If Cooke is to be taken at face value - and we do know that since British Cycling have screwed her over time and again, we do have to accept that this may colour her standpoint - Cope was paid to coach the women, but ignored the two most prominent women in British Cycling time and again to instead spend a whole month doing motorpacing training - on BC's dime - for Wiggins, and on at least two occasions to ferret substances - whether suspect or not is almost irrelevant at this point - around Europe for a professional men's team that's supposed to be funded commercially. At this point, we're seeing a very clear, very bright image of the culture at BC and where the road women fit into their masterplan, which is to say as nothing more than an opportunity to pilfer some funds from and get some more complicit staff on the payroll without ringing too many alarm bells or increasing the Sky budget.

Oh, and as if to top it off, the internal enquiry into sexism at British Cycling didn't even bother contacting Emma Pooley for her opinion... so how are we meant to take its conclusions any more seriously than the other internal enquiry, into what Cope was doing with the now infamous package, that didn't bother to consult anybody capable of reading a race calendar?
 
Feb 16, 2011
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Robert5091 said:
Thanks for the good post Libertine Seguros - this whole jiify bag/sexism/funding shenanigans saga is like watching the Titanic going slowly, slowly down.

+1

Agree, LS always on the money in her considered posts; thanks also to Snipe and Hoggy.

I think anyone with half-a-brain always knew this was happening with Sky/BC/Cookson et al. Their spin was transparent and patronising. UK Postal always stank up the place with their zeroes to heroes. Wiggins thinking he was the new Lance (in every way) - remember his admonishment during that interview post-USADA? Wiggins thought he was smart enough not to get caught out the same way but his explosive anger when anyone brought up PEDs was an obvious tell. Better not take up poker as a new career, Sir Sideburns, you dill.

Will be glad to see the truth come out and reputations ignobly gained shattered.

EDIT: Anyone ever involved with Shane Sutton knows what a grimey, nasty POS the guy is: all that weed never mellowed him out. Brother and World Champ, Gary, on the other hand, is a wonderful fellow.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Cheers Stingray. And yes, good post from Libertine.

However, I'm lost as to why Libertine would simply "accept that Nicole did certainly play a role in why BC thought her hard to work with, and could be selfish and bolshy".
Libertine, at the risk of nitpicking, I have to ask you: unless you know Nicole personally, why would you just "accept" the characterization of Nicole that British Cycling (Sutton, Brailsford, Lizzie) have put out there?

Look, I "accept" that Sutton is a ***, but that's because everything he says and does points in that direction.

Wrt Nicole, on the other hand, to "accept" that she's selfish, that doesn't match with anything I've heard about her -- except through the mouths of Sutton, Brailsford and Lizzie.

Small example: her attempt at organizing a women's training camp was not selfish. Many of the other women would have benefited from it. Also, from people who do know her personally I've heard she's the exact opposite from selfish.

Sure, you could argue those people may be biased in her favor.
But the point is: while it's of course subjective, and while I realize there are always two sides to the story, I don't see any reason to just "accept" BC's characterization about Nicole. They had a reason to characterize her that way, and it would be kind of ironic if we - whilst acknowledging the rotten deceptive culture that rules within BC - we'd just take their word for it.
 
Dec 13, 2010
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Libertine Seguros said:
Nicole was never, ever, never in a million years going to be "the chosen one" for British Cycling. She had had to achieve far too much of her career without them directing everything, she could never be trusted to stay "on imessage". Pooley likewise. Now, ironically, Lizzie can be pretty outspoken herself, and has had plenty to say about British Cycling in the last 18 months that is far from positive, but certainly everything I've seen from British Cycling in the last five years has said to me that Lizzie is the one BC want to lead the road women, and has been all along, regardless of whether that's Lizzie's goal or not. Therefore, this latest detail from Nicole is neither surprising nor really a revelation, but it does fill in some of the blanks for sure. The way they've tried to airbrush Nicole from history is patronising at best and malicious at worst. When a BC spokesperson described Armitstead's rainbow jersey victory in Richmond as "a breakthrough moment for women's cycling in the UK", it made me pretty angry, and I can absolutely understand if Nicole's blood boiled just a bit upon hearing that, considering only six years earlier, and not even before the start of the whole cycling revolution in the UK, Nicole had won the Olympic AND World Championships road races the same season, then seen her team fold saying (almost in these exact words) "mission accomplished", and devoting their funding instead to the much more pressing issue of making sure Rob Hayles got to start the domestic crit circuit.

Of course, when the current hydra-headed behemoth that is British Cycling and its offshoots (including Sky) became the centrepiece of the Olympic revolution, Lizzie was just starting out (going with Cervélo in 2009, where she showed her best stage racing credentials of her entire career, winning the maglia bianca at the Giro Donne), and was clearly groomed to be the next star. This is evidenced to this very day in the way that the commentators with an "in" at British Cycling make absolutely certain to refer to her at all times as a "lovable, hard-working Yorkshire lass". Always "lass", never "girl", never "woman". It's affectionate, it's colloquial. Makes her easier to identify with, supposedly. But the presentation of Lizzie that BC favours is not always in alignment with the presentation Lizzie herself has wanted to present, and it sure as hell isn't in line with the perception of a lot of people who follow women's cycling - and clearly, as we found out when we discovered her overturned ban for the missed tests, a lot of the péloton too - and I can certainly understand if that rubbed Cooke up the wrong way too. When Pooley announced her intention to return for Rio, the first thing Sutton said - the very first thing - was that she would "add another strong engine to support Lizzie". There was never, not for a second, any consideration of a flexible strategy, of any consideration of who would be strongest on the day, who the course suited, etc.. Just "oh good, some more legs to help Armitstead".

So the 2011 tactics story doesn't surprise me at all. Even if you could say - and certainly wouldn't be unjustified in doing so - that the parcours at København meant that Cooke likely couldn't have done any better than she did and that Lizzie's capability from a partly reduced sprint would have made her the better option to begin with. But while I accept that Nicole did certainly play a role in why BC thought her hard to work with, and could be selfish and bolshy, if they'd actually dealt with the tactics beforehand and made it clear what the plan was, rather than leaving the women to it, then changing the plan at the last minute then insulting them for not pulling off the win, maybe she wouldn't have been in such a position. Ironic, then, that Lizzie has been pretty scathing in her opinions regards Shane Sutton in light of the last few months, and has been far from supportive of the system that, on the face of it, you would have thought had benefited her in prioritising her ahead of Cooke and Pooley who, at least at the time, were more proven commodities.

What this really brings to a head, however, is the scale of just how much the women were marginalized, and just how much of the funding that came - albeit indirectly - from public money for the national sporting organ that is British Cycling, was being siphoned off and redirected towards a men's team that already benefits from a much bigger budget than all but one other commercially-sponsored team. And the implication that Cookson, in his role at the time, would have been complicit in this is pretty damning, especially when he happily glosses over such things as there being nothing to see (and especially at the same time as the national race of the country he brought the Worlds to, that he described as an "emerging market" for the sport to cover for inadequate medical provisions, riders passing out and vomiting due to heat, dour racing and no fans, is cancelled due to lack of support). So what exactly did Cope do to justify the money he was paid as a women's coach? It sure as hell doesn't sound like he did any coaching of the women. He supposedly took his role so seriously that, if you take his statements at face value (which we clearly shouldn't) he had no idea where his star riders would be (meeting Emma Pooley in the French Alps when she was racing in the Basque Country), or even what races they would be entering (meeting Nicole Cooke at Liège-Bastogne-Liège, which doesn't even have a women's race). I've been willing to buy the latter as poor communication as it's between Flèche Wallonne and the GP Elsy Jacobs so Cooke may have been in the vicinity for training purposes, but nevertheless, he's admitted to ferrying stuff for Team Sky at LBL, so Nicole may be able to fill us in a bit more on that one too.

If Cooke is to be taken at face value - and we do know that since British Cycling have screwed her over time and again, we do have to accept that this may colour her standpoint - Cope was paid to coach the women, but ignored the two most prominent women in British Cycling time and again to instead spend a whole month doing motorpacing training - on BC's dime - for Wiggins, and on at least two occasions to ferret substances - whether suspect or not is almost irrelevant at this point - around Europe for a professional men's team that's supposed to be funded commercially. At this point, we're seeing a very clear, very bright image of the culture at BC and where the road women fit into their masterplan, which is to say as nothing more than an opportunity to pilfer some funds from and get some more complicit staff on the payroll without ringing too many alarm bells or increasing the Sky budget.

Oh, and as if to top it off, the internal enquiry into sexism at British Cycling didn't even bother contacting Emma Pooley for her opinion... so how are we meant to take its conclusions any more seriously than the other internal enquiry, into what Cope was doing with the now infamous package, that didn't bother to consult anybody capable of reading a race calendar?
LS as erudite as ever and a very interesting read.Its a shame we could not get you involved in the parliamentary enquiry.
For me it also provides an answer to how Nicole suddenly disappeared from women's cycling in the public eye. I remember at one stage she seemed to be in the press and TV quite a lot and then nothing.
Indeed she was a latter Beryl Burton and held in high esteem by cycle racing enthusiasts.
I just wish that Nicole could find
the courage to express her opinions more publically which would make those who think cycle racing as been cleaned up realise that it is not the case.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Why would she start screaming on twitter and throwing around accusations?
It would only open her up to libel (worst case) and to counter-accusations of being "bitter with an axe to grind" (accusations which, surprise surprise, came in immediately on twitter in response to her Guardian piece).
In addition, it would negatively affect her credibility wrt issues such as the ones we just read about in that Guardian piece.
Bad idea.
I think Nicole is doing it the right way.
She's saying as much as she can say in her position and is letting others read between the lines.
Don't forget pieces like this go through extensive legal reading.
It's not unthinkable that her original piece (as submitted to the Guardian) was (much) more confronting still, and that she was subsequently asked to water it down.
 
Matt Lawton was interviewed on Australian Radio today about the mystery package - Lawton clearly stated ' he knows the name of the alleged substance but for legal reasons is unable to publically release the information.' You don't have to be a rocket scientist to determine it was an illegal product or the name would have been published by Lawton.

Though it's still a case of 'he said, she said' situation - Reckon there are some similarities with the EFC 34 case from earlier this year - Blackcat can shed some further light on the similarity.
 
Dec 25, 2016
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sniper said:
Cheers Stingray. And yes, good post from Libertine.

However, I'm lost as to why Libertine would simply "accept that Nicole did certainly play a role in why BC thought her hard to work with, and could be selfish and bolshy".
Libertine, at the risk of nitpicking, I have to ask you: unless you know Nicole personally, why would you just "accept" the characterization of Nicole that British Cycling (Sutton, Brailsford, Lizzie) have put out there?

Look, I "accept" that Sutton is a ***, but that's because everything he says and does points in that direction.

Wrt Nicole, on the other hand, to "accept" that she's selfish, that doesn't match with anything I've heard about her -- except through the mouths of Sutton, Brailsford and Lizzie.

Small example: her attempt at organizing a women's training camp was not selfish. Many of the other women would have benefited from it. Also, from people who do know her personally I've heard she's the exact opposite from selfish.

Sure, you could argue those people may be biased in her favor.
But the point is: while it's of course subjective, and while I realize there are always two sides to the story, I don't see any reason to just "accept" BC's characterization about Nicole. They had a reason to characterize her that way, and it would be kind of ironic if we - whilst acknowledging the rotten deceptive culture that rules within BC - we'd just take their word for it.

I agree with this and would also love a further explanation if possible.
 
Re:

yaco said:
Matt Lawton was interviewed on Australian Radio today about the mystery package - Lawton clearly stated ' he knows the name of the alleged substance but for legal reasons is unable to publically release the information.' You don't have to be a rocket scientist to determine it was an illegal product or the name would have been published by Lawton.

Though it's still a case of 'he said, she said' situation - Reckon there are some similarities with the EFC 34 case from earlier this year - Blackcat can shed some further light on the similarity.

You don't happen to have a link to that interview do you mate?

Would love to hear it. Lawton is a legend, I think he's pulling an absolute blinder here. I imagine him smirking to himself when he recalls BW calling him a c u next tuesday in the Ghent Six press conference.
 
Re:

Frankenstorm said:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cycling/2016/12/29/british-cycling-warned-issues-dual-team-sky-roles-2011/
Interesting, this is something I've brought up for years - the blurred lines and distinctions between who works for British Cycling and who works for Sky, and that for several years the figureheads were the same, meant any scandal is going to drag everybody in.
 
Re: Re:

Libertine Seguros said:
Frankenstorm said:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cycling/2016/12/29/british-cycling-warned-issues-dual-team-sky-roles-2011/
Interesting, this is something I've brought up for years - the blurred lines and distinctions between who works for British Cycling and who works for Sky, and that for several years the figureheads were the same, meant any scandal is going to drag everybody in.


Likewise, I was bringing up that Deloitte report for years on this board. It's interesting that the very same thing that tripped up USPS will be the downfall of Sky. Once you start messing about with public money you open the door for heavier scrutiny. Even more interesting is Cookson; not only was he Cope's manager at the time but he set up Team Sky. At the moment he has disappeared off the face earth. At some point he'll be dragged into this saga.
 
Re: Re:

budegan said:
yaco said:
Matt Lawton was interviewed on Australian Radio today about the mystery package - Lawton clearly stated ' he knows the name of the alleged substance but for legal reasons is unable to publically release the information.' You don't have to be a rocket scientist to determine it was an illegal product or the name would have been published by Lawton.

Though it's still a case of 'he said, she said' situation - Reckon there are some similarities with the EFC 34 case from earlier this year - Blackcat can shed some further light on the similarity.

You don't happen to have a link to that interview do you mate?

Would love to hear it. Lawton is a legend, I think he's pulling an absolute blinder here. I imagine him smirking to himself when he recalls BW calling him a c u next tuesday in the Ghent Six press conference.

Go to rsn.net.au and tab down to audio for the day.

Edit; For some unknown reason the Matt Lawton interview is not on the list - Grggh !