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David Walsh piece

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May 15, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
The biggest news is not LA is a doper.

It is that Floyd says Lance paid the UCI to make a positive test go away.
Catching Lance himself - as you pointed out - would not change a whole lot, but showing the sporting authority as complicit and corrupt is.

This will require a massive shakeup of sporting authorities - indeed one on a scale never seen before, and I include CONI in the lat 90's in that observation.

THAT is the story. The apparatus by which known cheats never seem to get caught.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Francois the Postman said:
Yup. It's a great summation of what has gone before, but if he had done all hos won homework, he would have found plenty of informed sources that would have put him straight on the 2001/2002 confusion for starters. It suggests that there was some lazy regurgitation in there, which casts doubt on that what follows.

Kirstin is actively cooperating is something that would be genuine bombshell news if it is true, I haven't seen that stated as a fact anywhere.

If true, it would put the comments by Landis that Kirstin was a witness in a whole new daylight, and with the feds around, a troubling one for Lance. But since Walsh misses the plank on other points, maybe he has also been a bit too quick to jot this one down as fact. If Landis indeed has a second witness, it isn't "my word against against his". So I think we are missing something here.

Maybe Kirstin has said that she won't volunteer info, but if she is ever asked under oath, show won't lie. And that is why Landis is trying to get this to court? I can find no other way to get Kirstin's involvement lined up with the rest of the soldiers that we know about, if she actually is involved.

I am also awaiting conformation of that before I swallow it. Too big a piece in the jig saw.

As I stated earlier - he is halfway up the Himalayas, so I am prepared to cut him some slack over the TdS reference.

But I don't believe he would have mentioned Kik unless he had something concrete to abase it on.
He didn't quite 'jot down' Kristin's involvement as fact - as 'Cal-Joe' noted it appears she is 'co-operating'.

If people are wondering why she may be involved it is because she could substantiate two allegations that Floyd made in the only available email:
I flew on a helicopter with Mr Armstrong from the finish, I believe Grenoble, to San Mauritz Switzerland at which point I was personally handed a box of 2.5 mg patches in front of his wife who witnessed the exchange.

The first EPO I ever used was then handed to me in the
entry way to his building in full view of his then wife. It was Eprex by brand and it came in six pre measured syringes.
 
Jul 8, 2009
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Francois the Postman said:
You know, although we keep circling the wagons around Lance & bruyneel, the thing I hope most, is that this will penetrate the organisations that are supposed to keep the riders in check. This needs to stop where the buck stops, the rotten eggs in the UCI and the national organisations.

With the feds involved we finally have a chance get the watchmen scrutinized. That is our only hope to see a culture change. If Lance will be exposed or not, is guilty or not, is a total sideshow. The danger is that it will become the main act, and seeing a symbol burned would be satisfying to many. But it is the building's core that needs to be rebuild, not just yesterday's shack in the back yard that was about to be replaced anyway.

...the problem is nobody has a problem with the conduct of these "organizations" when their self-interests are served...it's only when these organizations attack riders of considerable stature and popularity that people start pulling the knives out...gotcha journalism ala Walsh has taken due process and the benefit of the doubt out of cycling and riders can be suspended now on little more than innuendo...there are those who relish Walsh's attack on Armstrong but would fight tooth and nail the allegations against Contador whom he has stated "definitely" dopes...

...i have a problem with persons that are so sure of themselves they lose their objectivity and become entranced with their theories, conjectures and hearsay...
 
Oct 29, 2009
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Dr. Maserati said:
As I stated earlier - he is halfway up the Himalayas, so I am prepared to cut him some slack over the TdS reference.

But I don't believe he would have mentioned Kik unless he had something concrete to abase it on.
He didn't quite 'jot down' Kristin's involvement as fact - as 'Cal-Joe' noted it appears she is 'co-operating'.

If people are wondering why she may be involved it is because she could substantiate two allegations that Floyd made in the only available email:

I got that she was mentioned a couple of times, and it is pretty obvious that Landis seems to have picked her as the most likely bit of extra evidence that turn the statistical tie of his word against Lance into a technical KO.

What is surprising to me, is that given where we are now, and if she is co-operating and willing to tell her side, why doesn't she release a statement to the press right now - or have an email leaked? We wouldn't have to do the intricate and speculative tap-dance we are going through.

We are all waiting for one extra person. Everyone involved faces consequences that have complications for them too. But if she is on board and collaborating, what is stopping her from doing now what she would be doing in a few weeks/months/a year anyway? Come clean.

"I did see that" would be cathartic in an epic way, and flip the entire case around. We are not getting it. Why? If she is involved, what is the obstacle that apparently is in the way? Why is Landis still alone "my word against his" if she is collaborating? Right now I need more convincing than "trust Walsh". I'm missing a bit that I need to make sense of the public silence by her.

Not saying that bit ain't there. But the lack of public statement is curious, given the flack that Landis faces as it is his word alone right now. If she is on board, it is a bizarre way to help.
 
Apr 27, 2010
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it could be a long time before another american rider stands on a podium in France...

that's cool, I'd rather know the sport was clean and have a Slovakian on the podium, than to see a doped up American beating everyone.
 

Dr. Maserati

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vrusimov said:
...the problem is nobody has a problem with the conduct of these "organizations" when their self-interests are served...it's only when these organizations attack riders of considerable stature and popularity that people start pulling the knives out...gotcha journalism ala Walsh has taken due process and the benefit of the doubt out of cycling and riders can be suspended now on little more than innuendo...there are those who relish Walsh's attack on Armstrong but would fight tooth and nail the allegations against Contador whom he has stated "definitely" dopes...

...i have a problem with persons that are so sure of themselves they lose their objectivity and become entranced with their theories, conjectures and hearsay...

No - the problem is you are a fan of Lance, it is easier to shoot the messenger than swallow the bitter pill.

You said in an earlier post - that you were fearful of the future of the sport in the US. Yet you have never participated in any thread on the likes of Zirbel, Papp, Levi..........or even Floyd.

As long as bikes a re made people will ride them - and people will race them. Yes, cycling in the States and even further may take a hit - which is why there needs to be full disclosure, not a cover-up or a weak shot at the few journalists that deserve that title.

If nothing changes and those who doped or facilitated doping are not held accountable - Pro Cycling will never restore its credibility.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Francois the Postman said:
What is surprising to me, is that given where we are now, and if she is co-operating and willing to tell her side, why doesn't she release a statement to the press right now - or have an email leaked? We wouldn't have to do the intricate and speculative tap-dance we are going through.

.
I doubt Kristin is talking but I think the fact that Floyd has clammed up may mean that the Feds are on the case. Leaks may come but the seriousness of the investigation probably means what is going on behind closed doors has a better chance of staying there. If you are being questioned in relation to this matter it doesn't benefit you to be talking about it in public.
 
Oct 29, 2009
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santacruz said:
that's cool, I'd rather know the sport was clean and have a Slovakian on the podium, than to see a doped up American beating everyone.

Not because I disagree with that sentiment, but just to remind you that the doped up American was beating other dopers.

There are reasons why I think Lance is a special case that warrants special attention, and a witch hunt is sometimes justified even if the witch is not alone.

But the one thing that stands out to me is that most riders that are involved are probably "normal" people, and not cheaters by nature. Folk who would probably prefer to ride clean if they had the option, but found themselves faced with a reality that made that nigh impossible without mayor consequences for what they would get out of the sport.

I think they have a real opportunity to change their own workplace here. I hope some of them are smart enough to take it, and lead the rest.

I think I would prefer a sort of "amnesty" or "truth & reconciliation" option for all riders. Speak now and in full, and it will be without consequences, if you keep a clean sheet from here on in. Lie or omit, or keep cheating, and if uncovered later, it will be result in a permanent ban from the sport plus other consequences.

It would trigger a change in the entire way pro-cycling is run. It would result in a loss of a certain audience in the short run, but it would also allow cycling to brand itself as a new clean ship, and enough fans would stick with it to get it through the dark days. Maybe even more so. Yes, it would hurt. But soft doctors make for poor cures, and this baby is sick (although already a heck of lot less than it was a few years back, it seems).
 
Feb 14, 2010
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Francois the Postman said:
You know, although we keep circling the wagons around Lance & bruyneel, the thing I hope most, is that this will penetrate the organisations that are supposed to keep the riders in check. This needs to stop where the buck stops, the rotten eggs in the UCI and the national organisations.

With the feds involved we finally have a chance get the watchmen scrutinized. That is our only hope to see a culture change. If Lance will be exposed or not, is guilty or not, is a total sideshow. The danger is that it will become the main act, and seeing a symbol burned would be satisfying to many. But it is the building's core that needs to be rebuild, not just yesterday's shack in the back yard that was about to be replaced anyway.

Yep. I'm not as familiar with what the USADA has done in the past. But the UCI will be under the microscope for the next few months. The WADA/AMA is going to be there for every test the UCI does during the Tour & make corrections as necessary.

Then a couple of weeks ago, the WADA clarified their code and said that the AFLD could request the UCI allow them to do additional tests before and during the Tour. With all of the doping stories that will be in the news the next couple of weeks, and especially if people like Kristin Armstrong step up to corroborate, no amount of bluster would convince people that turning down additional tests is a good idea. Even then, since the WADA made the clarification at a meeting with this in mind, it's likely that they'll give the AFLD approval 21 days prior.Then we can see who gets the results. I thought it was interesting that when the AFLD went rogue in March and conducted six controls without approval, it resulted in a positive and a raid that implicated two people in trafficking. The UCI just suspended the rider.

Then there's the possibility that there have been bribes and cover-ups. It's going to be a long, hot summer.
The French anti-doping agency AFLD can be in conflict with the World Federation UCI and will not give in view of the Tour de France a request to make the implementation of its own doping controls."We are a national agency, so we are not entitled to carry out checks at international races. But we must make an application to take additional samples," said AFLD president Pierre Bordry

Accordingly, the AFLD 35 days before the Tour start in Rotterdam on 3 July, a request to the UCI make. Should this be denied, she has to turn up to 21 days before the race the way the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA).

http://www.focus.de/sport/mehrsport...dopingkontrollen-bei-der-tour_aid_507730.html
 

Dr. Maserati

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Francois the Postman said:
I got that she was mentioned a couple of times, and it is pretty obvious that Landis seems to have picked her as the most likely bit of extra evidence that turn the statistical tie of his word against Lance into a technical KO.

What is surprising to me, is that given where we are now, and if she is co-operating and willing to tell her side, why doesn't she release a statement to the press right now - or have an email leaked? We wouldn't have to do the intricate and speculative tap-dance we are going through.

We are all waiting for one extra person. Everyone involved faces consequences that have complications for them too. But if she is on board and collaborating, what is stopping her from doing now what she would be doing in a few weeks/months/a year anyway? Come clean.

"I did see that" would be cathartic in an epic way, and flip the entire case around. We are not getting it. Why? If she is involved, what is the obstacle that apparently is in the way? Why is Landis still alone "my word against his" if she is collaborating? Right now I need more convincing than "trust Walsh". I'm missing a bit that I need to make sense of the public silence by her.

Not saying that bit ain't there. But the lack of public statement is curious, given the flack that Landis faces as it is his word alone right now. If she is on board, it is a bizarre way to help.
I never said to 'trust Walsh' - but I don't see why he would bring her name in unless he had good information to do so.

Again I think you need to use 'Cal-Joes' observation of the word co-operating, ie she hasn't slammed the door shut and refused to talk however that does not mean she has made any statement either.

I also think the word "Feds" is getting over played here - which Feds are involved and what is their role? So far I see USADA involved and that Novitzky has been appointed, we don't yet know what involvement (or powers) he has in this matter, except that he is an investigator.
 
May 15, 2010
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santacruz said:
that's cool, I'd rather know the sport was clean and have a Slovakian on the podium, than to see a doped up American beating everyone.

I'll have what he's smoking.
 
Oct 29, 2009
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Epicycle said:
I doubt Kristin is talking but I think the fact that Floyd has clammed up may mean that the Feds are on the case. Leaks may come but the seriousness of the investigation probably means what is going on behind closed doors has a better chance of staying there. If you are being questioned in relation to this matter it doesn't benefit you to be talking about it in public.

In other words, you suggest that Kirstin is not co-operating with Landis. Which was my point. A journalist is writing that she is. I can't add that up with letting Landis hang out to dry on his own right now, when all it needs to explode the lot in a oner is for her to say "I did see that".

I can see how Landis has involved Kirstin in such a way that she will end up or is co-operating with the feds. With her consent, but even more so without.

But as written by Walsh, it suggest that there is a degree of collusion or collaboration between Kirstin and Landis. I can't square that circle unless Kirsten is bound by something, or has put a condition in place that needs to be met before she really comes clean.

Assuming Landis isn't making it all up, and Kirstin is collaborating with him as claimed, keeping stumm is a weird way to help if it was premeditated and the aim is to say things anyway at a later point. This is the time to turn tables. One whiter sheep needs to walk over the **** and join Landis. If this is keen or determined or friendly collaboration, someone needs PR advise.

If the feds are now involved and that is what keeping her quiet, she is co-operating with them, not with Landis as such.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Francois the Postman said:
Not because I disagree with that sentiment, but just to remind you that the doped up American was beating other dopers.

There are reasons why I think Lance is a special case that warrants special attention, and a witch hunt is sometimes justified even if the witch is not alone.

But the one thing that stands out to me is that most riders that are involved are probably "normal" people, and cheaters by nature. Folk who would probably prefer to ride clean if they had the option, but found themselves faced with a reality that made that nigh impossible without mayor consequences for what they would get out of the sport.

I think they have a real opportunity to change their own workplace here. I hope some of them are smart enough to take it, and lead the rest.

I think I would prefer a sort of "amnesty" or "truth & reconciliation" option for all riders. Speak now and in full, and it will be without consequences, if you keep a clean sheet from here on in. Lie or omit, or keep cheating, and if uncovered later, it will be result in a permanent ban from the sport plus other consequences.

It would trigger a change in the entire way pro-cycling is run. It would result in a loss of a certain audience in the short run, but it would also allow cycling to brand itself as a new clean ship, and enough fans would stick with it to get it through the dark days. Maybe even more so. Yes, it would hurt. But soft doctors make for poor cures, and this baby is sick (although already a heck of lot less than it was a few years back, it seems).

Excellent post -

Although I am not yet convinced of an amnesty - have to think on that one.

The only small point I would add to your post is that the system needs to radically change- a new administration and the anti-doping taken out of the hands of sports authority's.
 
Feb 14, 2010
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Francois the Postman said:
What is surprising to me, is that given where we are now, and if she is co-operating and willing to tell her side, why doesn't she release a statement to the press right now - or have an email leaked? We wouldn't have to do the intricate and speculative tap-dance we are going through.

We are all waiting for one extra person. Everyone involved faces consequences that have complications for them too. But if she is on board and collaborating, what is stopping her from doing now what she would be doing in a few weeks/months/a year anyway? Come clean.

I think probably so they can build the case without tipping their hand. I recall from one of the books that she went with him for his European training at least one year. And before Sheryl Crowe went to the apartment for the first time, Lance called his assistant to de-Kik the place. You'd think she'd notice if she went to the fridge for milk for her cereal and saw blood bags hanging. :eek: But seriously, she could have overheard things, or stumbled across things when he was out, or maybe she's willing to testify about the conversation in the hospital. I'd be happy just knowing for sure that she's talking, without the dark side being able to do damage control. They have way too many sources of info as it is.
 
Oct 29, 2009
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Dr. Maserati said:
Again I think you need to use 'Cal-Joes' observation of the word co-operating, ie she hasn't slammed the door shut and refused to talk however that does not mean she has made any statement either.

Yes I read that and I disagree. "Not slamming a door shut" is not the same as co-operation. "Not walking in the opposite direction" or "standing still" is not the same as walking together.

And co-operating with Landis is not the same as co-operating with the authorities.
 
May 15, 2010
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Francois the Postman said:
Not because I disagree with that sentiment, but just to remind you that the doped up American was beating other dopers.

There are reasons why I think Lance is a special case that warrants special attention, and a witch hunt is sometimes justified even if the witch is not alone.

But the one thing that stands out to me is that most riders that are involved are probably "normal" people, and cheaters by nature. Folk who would probably prefer to ride clean if they had the option, but found themselves faced with a reality that made that nigh impossible without mayor consequences for what they would get out of the sport.

I think they have a real opportunity to change their own workplace here. I hope some of them are smart enough to take it, and lead the rest.

I think I would prefer a sort of "amnesty" or "truth & reconciliation" option for all riders. Speak now and in full, and it will be without consequences, if you keep a clean sheet from here on in. Lie or omit, or keep cheating, and if uncovered later, it will be result in a permanent ban from the sport plus other consequences.

It would trigger a change in the entire way pro-cycling is run. It would result in a loss of a certain audience in the short run, but it would also allow cycling to brand itself as a new clean ship, and enough fans would stick with it to get it through the dark days. Maybe even more so. Yes, it would hurt. But soft doctors make for poor cures, and this baby is sick (although already a heck of lot less than it was a few years back, it seems).


Meh....Agree that the Kristin angle at this point is just a rumor and a lot of hopeful people are running with it as fact. It would be nice, but guys are getting too carried away at this point. For all we know, Walsh floated her name just to throw another log on the fire. Rumor can go around the world before the truth gets out of bed.

I'll bet you $5 that 2 years, 5 years, 10 years from now, not much has changed, new faces, new Alphabet soup doping agencies, new drugs, new ways to beat the system.

There's probably a lot of guys who would be terrified, especially at the top of the food chain, to give up the dope. The fastest clean guy is probably someone we've never heard of and is probably never in the tdf because his team won't allow a clean guy to try and recover as fast as doped guys in a 3 week stage race.
 
Dr. Maserati said:
The only small point I would add to your post is that the system needs to radically change- a new administration and the anti-doping taken out of the hands of sports authority's.

I agree, but is this what will change it? Certainly, if this thing doesn't fizzle out or fall apart, then there will never be anything else that has the same potential to instigate that kind of change..
 
Mar 13, 2009
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I think Kirsten owes alot of folks. She gets her face in the media alot, and is big on "Christian values", but frankly, I have yet to see any evidence of her standing up to StrongArm's bully boy tactics, and just taking a rich divorce settlement instead.

One of these types that will not practice what she preaches.
 

Dr. Maserati

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theswordsman said:
I think probably so they can build the case without tipping their hand. I recall from one of the books that she went with him for his European training at least one year. And before Sheryl Crowe went to the apartment for the first time, Lance called his assistant to de-Kik the place. You'd think she'd notice if she went to the fridge for milk for her cereal and saw blood bags hanging. :eek: But seriously, she could have overheard things, or stumbled across things when he was out, or maybe she's willing to testify about the conversation in the hospital. I'd be happy just knowing for sure that she's talking, without the dark side being able to do damage control. They have way too many sources of info as it is.

In her deposition in the Trek case Tim Herman who is Lances lawyer - was representing Kik, she had memory loss for a lot of her deposition and whenKristin was asked
whether or not you ever observed your husband, your ex-husband, using any banned substances during the time he was racing on the professional cycling circuit?”
Before Armstrong could answer, Herman said he was instructing her not to and asked to take a 5-minute break. After the break, DiBoise resumed asking Armstrong about other subjects.

Also Lance did not meet Kik until after the Hospital confession, he was dating another lady then.
 
Jul 8, 2009
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Dr. Maserati said:
No - the problem is you are a fan of Lance, it is easier to shoot the messenger than swallow the bitter pill.

You said in an earlier post - that you were fearful of the future of the sport in the US. Yet you have never participated in any thread on the likes of Zirbel, Papp, Levi..........or even Floyd.

As long as bikes a re made people will ride them - and people will race them. Yes, cycling in the States and even further may take a hit - which is why there needs to be full disclosure, not a cover-up or a weak shot at the few journalists that deserve that title.

If nothing changes and those who doped or facilitated doping are not held accountable - Pro Cycling will never restore its credibility.



...slow your roll my friend...i could care less if they all doped...Armstrong, Landis, LeMond anyone of them...i ride for me and not for them...journalists who deserve that title?...and of course you decide that right?...please, journalists are journalists, not saints...it's easy to make a living off the suffering, exposure and scandal of others under the guise of altruism and/or the bitterness of having not achieving something yourself...your opinion is like anyone else's...doping has been going on long before even LeMond straddled a bicycle...

...you think i'm gonna slit my wrists or put my neck in a noose if Armstrong is proven a cheat and a liar?...please dude, i'm a fan of the man, not a zealot...and my lot in life is not making sure i meet your standard of prerequisite posting in threads you deem important or relevant...i'm merely stating my opinion so don't let the "i'm a fan of Lance" send your needle off north buddy...as long as people race bikes there'll be those who'll deem themselves entitled to the notoriety and acclaim that winning brings even if it comes at the expense of their own health...good day to you sir...
 

Dr. Maserati

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vrusimov said:
...slow your roll my friend...i could care less if they all doped...Armstrong, Landis, LeMond anyone of them...i ride for me and not for them...journalists who deserve that title?...and of course you decide that right?...please, journalists are journalists, not saints...it's easy to make a living off the suffering, exposure and scandal of others under the guise of altruism and/or the bitterness of having not achieving something yourself...your opinion is like anyone else's...doping has been going on long before even LeMond straddled a bicycle...

...you think i'm gonna slit my wrists or put my neck in a noose if Armstrong is proven a cheat and a liar?...please dude, i'm a fan of the man, not a zealot...and my lot in life is not making sure i meet your standard of prerequisite posting in threads you deem important or relevant...i'm merely stating my opinion so don't let the "i'm a fan of Lance" send your needle off north buddy...as long as people race bikes there'll be those who'll deem themselves entitled to the notoriety and acclaim that winning brings even if it comes at the expense of their own health...good day to you sir...

No - I think you want to bury your head in the sand and hope it all blows over.

Guess what that will change..........
 
Jul 2, 2009
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Ginkgo said:
floyd's strategy seems to be 'i couldn't get away with doping - after trying my hardest to do so - so nobody else should be allowed to'.

very unsightly.


I believe this is not Floyd's strategy. I think the Feds have taken over the orchestra.
 
May 15, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
No - I think you want to bury your head in the sand and hope it all blows over.

Guess what that will change..........

(I know you are posting to someone else and not me.)

I certainly do not HOPE it will all blow over. I'd love nothing more than to see Lance get his comeuppance, but how many times has he been accused and walked away? He has a lot going for him, Floyd is already a villain and a liar (and believe me, I LOVE Floyd and don't see any difference between what he did to recover than the next 3 riders on GC were most assuredly doing.) and now the liar changes his story, so Lance has that total lack of credibility going for him. Lance knows how to push people around, intimidate them, and when necessary, buy them off. And he is 'The Hero' (not my hero, but the media can only manage to characterize people in the most simple of brush strokes). So, most likely, it IS going to blow over. If he retires and I only have to suffer through his Michelob commercials and endless media appearances and insufferable blow-hardery, then I guess I'll call that a win.

But really, I don't see much of a change occurring as a result. There will be some new faces, some new final-word-in-doping-control will emerge and may even be more corrupt than what we have now.

Cheating in sports has been around since sports began and won't stop until they end. Some posters on these LA threads make it seem like he invented cheating. Wrong! But he has managed to make the most out of being a fraud of anyone I have ever seen.

Hate to kill the buzz, those of us who despise him will likely find little satisfaction at the conclusion of this. I know he is despicable. That's enough for me.
 
May 15, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
No - I think you want to bury your head in the sand and hope it all blows over.

Guess what that will change..........

(I know you are posting to someone else and not me.)

I certainly do not HOPE it will all blow over. I'd love nothing more than to see Lance get his comeuppance, but how many times has he been accused and walked away? He has a lot going for him, Floyd is already a villain and a liar (and believe me, I LOVE Floyd and don't see any difference between what he did to recover than what the next 3 riders on GC were most assuredly doing.) and now the liar changes his story, so Lance has that total lack of credibility going for him. Lance knows how to push people around, intimidate them, and when necessary, buy them off. And he is 'The Hero' (not my hero, but the media can only manage to characterize people in the most simple of brush strokes). So, most likely, it IS going to blow over. If he retires and I only have to suffer through his Michelob commercials and endless media appearances and insufferable blow-hardery, then I guess I'll call that a win.

But really, I don't see much of a change occurring as a result. There will be some new faces, some new final-word-in-doping-control will emerge and may even be more corrupt than what we have now.

Cheating in sports has been around since sports began and won't stop until they end. Some posters on these LA threads make it seem like he invented cheating. Wrong! But he has managed to make the most out of being a fraud of anyone I have ever seen.

Hate to kill the buzz, those of us who despise him will likely find little satisfaction at the conclusion of this. I know he is despicable. That's enough for me.