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De Bonis Busted for EPO

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python said:
but as ashenden suggested if the sanction was ‘no start’ when your profile is wacky we’d most likely not see armstrong complete the tour in 2009.

You have to wonder what Amstrong's profile would look like without the advance warning and testing delays.

There have been no verifiable passport results. We have seen a number of lies by the UCI. They attribute every positive to the passport, but there should be a lot of positives purely because of the increased number of tests. The UCI denied that Di Luca had passport problems, and a week later claimed his positive was due to the passport, even though Di Luca was caught by normal tests during the Giro. They cannot keep their lies straight from one week to another. When people lie to me I don't trust them.

The UCI knows exactly which of the riders who have been racing for many years have a history of doping. They have the hematocrits for riders going back to 1997. It would be a simple matter for them to compare the hematocrits riders were racing at in 1999 to the values from 2009.
 
craig1985 said:
Let's see Gianni Savio defend this one.

"This year we signed a rider, Francesco De Bonis, who was later charged by the UCI for an anti-doping offence committed before he was with our team, on the basis of the biological passport. At least with the passport, in future I won't need to waste my time reading a prospective signing's mind. Instead I'll simply ask our doctor to read and interpret all of his past blood and urine tests."


From the latest PC mag. "His" words.

Isn't what we are seeing, second tier riders, trying to make it to the top level, but wages dictating risky doping techniques?
 
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Mellow Velo said:
Isn't what we are seeing, second tier riders, trying to make it to the top level, but wages dictating risky doping techniques?

Tony Rominger already agreed with you in 2007:

[Q]Die beiden berichten über die Epo-Zeit wie folgt: Sie sagen, dass damals Epo für alle erschwinglich gewesen sei und dass es praktisch alle Fahrer genommen hätten. Das Doping sei gewissermassen «demokratisch» gewesen, und die Waffengleichheit sei damals vorhanden gewesen, im Gegensatz zu den letzten Jahren, wo nur reiche Fahrer sich die 30000 oder mehr Euro leisten konnten, die eine «Behandlung» bei Dr. Fuentes kostete.

[TR]Das stimmt.

The two [Antonio Ferretti & Marco Vitali] have reported the following about the 'EPO time': they say that above all EPO was affordable for everyone and that practically all riders took it. Doping was to a certain extent 'democratic' and there was an 'equality of arms' contrary to recent years, where only rich riders can afford a =/>30000E 'treatment' from Dr Fuentes.

That's correct.
 
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dimspace said:
ok.. im not going to turn this into a wiggins thread, you are clearly more bitter than a fermented lemon, but... suspicious performance of the tour, i think his weight loss has been well documented, the fact he always showed the potential but this was his first full season racing purely on the road and not focusing on track, the worlds ITT he had a mechanical and then spoke his mind, and hes got a pointa bout contador (not that he must be doped cos he beat brad, but he must be doped because of his extremely dubious history)... So now he pops up and critises a doper, what do you want him to do, say nothing...

talk about damned if you do, damned if you dont...

You have become very bitter and cynical since your hero was outed.. :(

i actually though brads quote was funny, and very well thought out.... wish i had come up with it...

anyway.. back to de bonis...

Although the quote is quite funny, your statement about wiggins is total bull**** dim, don't be delusional, I remember what your reaction was at paris-nice you talked about how impossible his performance was without dope and contador has won TT before, and now you're claiming that a guy who would go straight out the back of the peloton if the road starts to go up in one year lost some weight and was seconds away from a podium place in the tour, please dim think rationally you already stated contador is doper which I agree, but what's good for the goose is good for the gander, u have to face it wiggins finally crossed over to the dark side. Of course dekker is bitter his favourite rider got busted, if or when that happens to brad or cav you're going to be bitter also.
 
You have become very bitter and cynical since your hero was outed.
No not really, Dekker was not my hero, I was a fan yes, but I wouldn't go so far. I do seem to have a neck for being fan of the wrong riders, Pantani, Jimenez, Ullrich and probably also Boogerd (not proven yet, but very suspicious).

And of other riders I thought were 100% clean, I was dissapointed also, Zabel for instance... And everytime I have hopes a GT winner or revelation is not doped, it turns out everytime he IS doped. Even the, for me, unlikely ones like Astarloza.

It makes you cynical. It makes you believe none of the top riders is clean. I can't help it any longer. Everytime I hope/believe someone is clean, he turns out to be a doper. So tell me, how can you not get cynical after all that has been happening the past 10/15 years?

Just look at the top of the grand tours and ardennes classics, almost all of the top riders of the past 5 years have been caught or at least named in several scandals.
Who are clean then? Only the flandriens and sprinters?
 
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BroDeal said:
The UCI knows exactly which of the riders who have been racing for many years have a history of doping. They have the hematocrits for riders going back to 1997. It would be a simple matter for them to compare the hematocrits riders were racing at in 1999 to the values from 2009.

You mean like Armstrong's haematocrit in 1999 being constantly just below 50 and ten years later constantly being in the 39-42 range?
 
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BroDeal said:
The UCI knows exactly which of the riders who have been racing for many years have a history of doping. They have the hematocrits for riders going back to 1997. It would be a simple matter for them to compare the hematocrits riders were racing at in 1999 to the values from 2009.

You mean like Armstrong's haematocrit in 1999 being constantly just below 50 and ten years later constantly being in the 39-42 range?

I'd love to hear the epileptic trees the mouth-breathers can come up with to explain that one
 
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franciep10 said:
Although the quote is quite funny, your statement about wiggins is total bull**** dim, don't be delusional, I remember what your reaction was at paris-nice you talked about how impossible his performance was without dope and contador has won TT before, and now you're claiming that a guy who would go straight out the back of the peloton if the road starts to go up in one year lost some weight and was seconds away from a podium place in the tour, please dim think rationally you already stated contador is doper which I agree, but what's good for the goose is good for the gander, u have to face it wiggins finally crossed over to the dark side. Of course dekker is bitter his favourite rider got busted, if or when that happens to brad or cav you're going to be bitter also.

ok.. wether or not wiggins is doping i dont have a clue, i hope not, but would i be surprised if he was.. nothing surprises me.. what annoys me a litlte is that his 4th place is put solely down to doping by a lot of people.. you dont finish 4th just by doping (especially if you beleive the theory that everyone is doping)... there are a lot of reasons why brad has improved this year, doping may or may not be one of them...

but anyway.. who was this di donis fellow...?
 
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dimspace said:
ok.. wether or not wiggins is doping i dont have a clue, i hope not, but would i be surprised if he was.. nothing surprises me.. what annoys me a litlte is that his 4th place is put solely down to doping by a lot of people.. you dont finish 4th just by doping (especially if you beleive the theory that everyone is doping)... there are a lot of reasons why brad has improved this year, doping may or may not be one of them...

You're in Stage 2 -denial, but complicated by grade 2 hero worship. I've been there myself, I got through it. Good luck brother it's rocky road.
 
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cromagnon said:
You're in Stage 2 -denial, but complicated by grade 2 hero worship. I've been there myself, I got through it. Good luck brother it's rocky road.

got nothing to do with denial.. as stated, i dont know if he is or not, and if he isnt i wont be surprised, if he is i wont be surprised.. nothing to do with denial, all to do with not knowing...

But, as previously said, you do not go to 4th PURELY AND SOLELY as a result of doping.. there are many many other factors..

yawn...

in other news canavaro has just been done for cortisone.. :D
 
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dimspace said:
ok.. wether or not wiggins is doping i dont have a clue, i hope not, but would i be surprised if he was.. nothing surprises me.. what annoys me a litlte is that his 4th place is put solely down to doping by a lot of people.. you dont finish 4th just by doping (especially if you beleive the theory that everyone is doping)... there are a lot of reasons why brad has improved this year, doping may or may not be one of them...

but anyway.. who was this di donis fellow...?

Wiggins rode a good tactical race, but usually when somebody improves this much over such a short time something is usually up. Anyway the only thing I remember about de bonis was him winning a stage in the 08 tour of romandie. So again another below average rider is caught.
 
issoisso said:
You mean like Armstrong's haematocrit in 1999 being constantly just below 50 and ten years later constantly being in the 39-42 range?

I'd love to hear the epileptic trees the mouth-breathers can come up with to explain that one
Altitude training in the Everest can do that. And those gradients are harder than the ones found in France.:D
 
issoisso said:
You mean like Armstrong's haematocrit in 1999 being constantly just below 50 and ten years later constantly being in the 39-42 range?

I'd love to hear the epileptic trees the mouth-breathers can come up with to explain that one

Yup. With a tiny amount of looking the UCI could tell which riders were racing five or six years ago with hematocrits of 48 and are now racing at 41. They know which riders are dopers. I don't know what they could do with the information, but they know which riders are dirty.

Release all the riders' hematocrits over the years and we would see who the dopers are.
 
BroDeal said:
Yup. With a tiny amount of looking the UCI could tell which riders were racing five or six years ago with hematocrits of 48 and are now racing at 41. They know which riders are dopers. I don't know what they could do with the information, but they know which riders are dirty.

Release all the riders' hematocrits over the years and we would see who the dopers are.
The UCI thinks that "The public can not handle the truth".
 
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dimspace said:
got nothing to do with denial.. as stated, i dont know if he is or not, and if he isnt i wont be surprised, if he is i wont be surprised.. nothing to do with denial, all to do with not knowing...

But, as previously said, you do not go to 4th PURELY AND SOLELY as a result of doping.. there are many many other factors..

yawn...

in other news canavaro has just been done for cortisone.. :D

He play's for Juventus (for those playing at home, this is the football/soccer team everybody loves to hate), nothing will happen to him. I mean they went to trial over using EPO on their players and got away with it scot-free.
 
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issoisso said:
You mean like Armstrong's haematocrit in 1999 being constantly just below 50 and ten years later constantly being in the 39-42 range?

I'd love to hear the epileptic trees the mouth-breathers can come up with to explain that one

He spent a lot of time on his jet without pressurizing the cabin, on the rollers, eight hours a day.

But times have changed. Those techniques left too large of a carbon footprint. LA has gone green now, except for his water consumption.
 
Dekker_Tifosi said:
Funny coincedance, De Bonis won a mountain stage in Romandie 08 at the same time Dekker mysteriously quitted the race as number 2 in the general classification.

By the way, Wiggins is kind of an *** himself. First half-accusing Contador of doping after the prologue in Paris Nice because it's impossible to believe for him that someone is stronger. And then he himself sets the most unbelievable and suspicious performance of 2009 in the Tour, by being a top climber out of nowhere, and still bad mouthing others. And finally, his disrespectfull behaviour in the ENECO Tour (quitting the final tt after a good split) and the Worlds ITT also don't make him look good.

Not saying Wiggins is doped, before half UK wants me dead, I'm just saying he is a total ***

I agree with Dekker's take on this one. At the beginning of the season I thought Wiggins was pretty cool, at the Tour I was amazed by his performance and willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but his actions and words since then have been terrible and my opinion of him is that he's a total douche at this point.
 
Dekker_Tifosi said:
No not really, Dekker was not my hero, I was a fan yes, but I wouldn't go so far. I do seem to have a neck for being fan of the wrong riders, Pantani, Jimenez, Ullrich and probably also Boogerd (not proven yet, but very suspicious).

And of other riders I thought were 100% clean, I was dissapointed also, Zabel for instance... And everytime I have hopes a GT winner or revelation is not doped, it turns out everytime he IS doped. Even the, for me, unlikely ones like Astarloza.

It makes you cynical. It makes you believe none of the top riders is clean. I can't help it any longer. Everytime I hope/believe someone is clean, he turns out to be a doper. So tell me, how can you not get cynical after all that has been happening the past 10/15 years?

Just look at the top of the grand tours and ardennes classics, almost all of the top riders of the past 5 years have been caught or at least named in several scandals.
Who are clean then? Only the flandriens and sprinters?

Well since we're on the topic of "who we were once a fan of that got busted" I'll share: I was first a huge fan of Armstrong (10 years ago), then Basso, and also Zabel all along. Also Vino. So that's why I'm so cynical; I don't have a problem admitting I'm cynical, and if anyone calls me cycnical on this forum then I'll call you a noob fan that doesn't know anything about cycling.
 
dimspace said:
But, as previously said, you do not go to 4th PURELY AND SOLELY as a result of doping.. there are many many other factors..

Well that's true Dim, but my take on the matter is that the doping itself invalidates all of the other hard work the athlete has done in regards to the legitimacy factor of the performance.
 
Forgot Basso in my list as well.
But then again, his Giro performance was so out of this world that I started doubting at that point. I liked him better when he was always at his limit (and the only one following armstrong uphill).

The limitless Basso was quite scary.
 
cromagnon said:
Now we will see how informed the posters are here...

Fabio Cannavaro, probably Italys best defender over the last decade, a star at Parma, Juventus, Real Madrid and Juventus again. World player of the year in 2006 I think and captain of the World Cup winning team, they do not come much bigger.

Now, I may be wrong on this but a few years ago, an Italian player was making a home video at a team hotel and there was a player shown on camera taking an intravenous drip, the player made a joke about the lengths that footballers had to now resort to, I think that player was Cannavaro. There was no evidence that the drip was anything illegal but it didnt look good.
 
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pmcg76 said:
Now, I may be wrong on this but a few years ago, an Italian player was making a home video at a team hotel and there was a player shown on camera taking an intravenous drip, the player made a joke about the lengths that footballers had to now resort to, I think that player was Cannavaro. There was no evidence that the drip was anything illegal but it didnt look good.

wtf, the video was linked to in the post you quoted :confused:
 
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wish i could speak italian... anyone translate what they are saying...