Debating the True Believers *if you must

[Fowsto Cope-E]

So, there is a facebook page called Americans Against the USADA. I've been posting on it in an attempt to bring some sense to the page. All of my comments were deleted, and I was banned from posting there. It's pretty ridiculous as I was making sure that my posts were not belligerent, offensive, or rude in any way; I was simply stating the other side of the arguement.

Well, anyway, two of the posters on there said that 3 of Lance's former teammates tested positive over the last year but were protected. One even went on to say that it was Hincapie, Vande Velde, and Leipheimer. I asked if he could provide a link, and he told me to google it. I did google it and found no such thing. I wanted to ask again to give a link, but I got banned from the page by that point. Have any of you guys heard anyone say that? Is there anny truth to that claim?

 

[Cerberus]

So, there is a facebook page called Americans Against the USADA. I've been posting on it in an attempt to bring some sense to the page. All of my comments were deleted, and I was banned from posting there. It's pretty ridiculous as I was making sure that my posts were not belligerent, offensive, or rude in any way; I was simply stating the other side of the arguement.

Well, anyway, two of the posters on there said that 3 of Lance's former teammates tested positive over the last year but were protected. One even went on to say that it was Hincapie, Vande Velde, and Leipheimer. I asked if he could provide a link, and he told me to google it. I did google it and found no such thing. I wanted to ask again to give a link, but I got banned from the page by that point. Have any of you guys heard anyone say that? Is there anny truth to that claim?

Well if it was covered up well there'd be no evidence of it, so clearly it's practically a fact now.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Well, anyway, two of the posters on there said that 3 of Lance's former teammates tested positive over the last year but were protected. One even went on to say that it was Hincapie, Vande Velde, and Leipheimer. I asked if he could provide a link, and he told me to google it. I did google it and found no such thing. I wanted to ask again to give a link, but I got banned from the page by that point. Have any of you guys heard anyone say that? Is there anny truth to that claim?

The truth is out there, young grasshopper...

It's impossible, VandeVelde rides at the clean team and isn't doing dope!

But, did you really need to search for a claim by those morons?

On the topic:

It is impossible to argue with 'believers' unless USADA confronts us unbelievers with the evidence.

 

[Fowsto Cope-E]

The truth is out there, young grasshopper...

It's impossible, VandeVelde rides at the clean team and isn't doing dope!

But, did you really need to search for a claim by those morons?

On the topic:

It is impossible to argue with 'believers' unless USADA confronts us unbelievers with the evidence.

I basically figured it was BS. It is interesting that they use hearsay to prove that Hincapie, Vande Velde, and Leipheimer are dopers, but then complain that all USADA has is witness testimony.

 

[SpeedWay]

I've noticed that several posters here have expressed frustration in trying to persuade the Armstrong Army that LA deserves to be sanctioned. The simplest way to avoid this frustration, of course, is simply not to engage, but for those who want to, anyway, here are a few suggestions. Maybe others have some more.

Forget about it. You and those of your ilk got "haters remorse" and you'll have it for the rest of your life. Don't try and corrupt the souls of the true believers with your righteous version of poison. They've already moved on, and being waste deep in ice, you'll never catch them. So take comfort in each other until hell freezes over.

 

[iZnoGouD]

The question is why not become public at the time!

 

[ebandit]

?

The question is why not become public at the time!

why not confront the truth...............now

 

[alberto.legstrong]

Trying to talk any sense into some of these people would make about as much sense as talking to a person who is madly in love with the very worst type of person and convincing them they are going to get burned. They are just delusional and unreachable and as they say arguing with a fool only proves there are 2.

Just .....why? They're nuts.

 

[alberto.legstrong]

I basically figured it was BS. It is interesting that they use hearsay to prove that Hincapie, Vande Velde, and Leipheimer are dopers, but then complain that all USADA has is witness testimony.

It may give you some insight as to what Team Strongarm will be doing to the witnesses character at the 'appropriate' time (of their choosing).

 

[Hugh Januss]

Forget about it. You and those of your ilk got "haters remorse" and you'll have it for the rest of your life. Don't try and corrupt the souls of the true believers with your righteous version of poison. They've already moved on, and being waste deep in ice, you'll never catch them. So take comfort in each other until hell freezes over.

Another drive by stupid from our pal Speedway. The farce is strong in this one.

 

[zapata]

So, there is a facebook page called Americans Against the USADA. I've been posting on it in an attempt to bring some sense to the page. All of my comments were deleted, and I was banned from posting there. It's pretty ridiculous as I was making sure that my posts were not belligerent, offensive, or rude in any way; I was simply stating the other side of the arguement.

Well, anyway, two of the posters on there said that 3 of Lance's former teammates tested positive over the last year but were protected. One even went on to say that it was Hincapie, Vande Velde, and Leipheimer. I asked if he could provide a link, and he told me to google it. I did google it and found no such thing. I wanted to ask again to give a link, but I got banned from the page by that point. Have any of you guys heard anyone say that? Is there anny truth to that claim?

I like the logo. A swastika of yellow ribbons.

 

[Fowsto Cope-E]

I made another facebook page called Americans Against Americans Against the USADA. You don't have to be American to like it. You just have to be against bigotry.

 

[alberto.legstrong]

I made another facebook page called Americans Against Americans Against the USADA. You don't have to be American to like it. You just have to be against bigotry.

I contend that it is not bigotry. It's willful ignorance. Discuss.

 

[rickshaw]

I keep telling myself I'm NOT going to chime in, but then I read all these posts and... I can't hold myself.

To me it is obvious. LA's problem is NOT that he was a doper, or a cheat, or any ONE thing. Lance's problem is that he's a sociopath and in every way imaginable an evil person. Doping, cheating, bullying, bribery, ruining honest peoples' lives, dragging a sport we love into the sewer, hiding behind his "kids and family" and his cancer foundation.... ever read about his exploits in Austin? Lots of folks in Austin who could care less about doping hate his guts.

The challenge is to get people to look beyond the single dimension of LA the Super Cancer Fighter (whatever) and have them see there is so much more to him and it is so terrible.

How about....
"You know the reason Lance had cancer in the first place is because of his long history taking cancer causing drugs? Check it out. He gave himself cancer with drugs, then he spent his whole cycling career getting his team mates, his "friends" to take the same drugs, creating a cycling culture where everybody takes drugs. What, so that everybody gets cancer..... to win a dam bike race? This is not a nice man. This man is death."



He's a slime ball,

 

[Fowsto Cope-E]

I keep telling myself I'm NOT going to chime in, but then I read all these posts and... I can't hold myself.

To me it is obvious. LA's problem is NOT that he was a doper, or a cheat, or any ONE thing. Lance's problem is that he's a sociopath and in every way imaginable an evil person. Doping, cheating, bullying, bribery, ruining honest peoples' lives, dragging a sport we love into the sewer, hiding behind his "kids and family" and his cancer foundation.... ever read about his exploits in Austin? Lots of folks in Austin who could care less about doping hate his guts.

The challenge is to get people to look beyond the single dimension of LA the Super Cancer Fighter (whatever) and have them see there is so much more to him and it is so terrible.

How about....
"You know the reason Lance had cancer in the first place is because of his long history taking cancer causing drugs? Check it out. He gave himself cancer with drugs, then he spent his whole cycling career getting his team mates, his "friends" to take the same drugs, creating a cycling culture where everybody takes drugs. What, so that everybody gets cancer..... to win a dam bike race? This is not a nice man. This man is death."



He's a slime ball,

This descibes so well why it pains me beyond belief when one of my friends says that they like Lance. It is impossible for me to see how anyone could be a fan of this guy, let alone DEFEND him. Nowadays, just hearing his name sickens me.

 

[Turner29]

I keep telling myself I'm NOT going to chime in, but then I read all these posts and... I can't hold myself.

To me it is obvious. LA's problem is NOT that he was a doper, or a cheat, or any ONE thing. Lance's problem is that he's a sociopath and in every way imaginable an evil person. Doping, cheating, bullying, bribery, ruining honest peoples' lives, dragging a sport we love into the sewer, hiding behind his "kids and family" and his cancer foundation.... ever read about his exploits in Austin? Lots of folks in Austin who could care less about doping hate his guts.

The challenge is to get people to look beyond the single dimension of LA the Super Cancer Fighter (whatever) and have them see there is so much more to him and it is so terrible.

How about....
"You know the reason Lance had cancer in the first place is because of his long history taking cancer causing drugs? Check it out. He gave himself cancer with drugs, then he spent his whole cycling career getting his team mates, his "friends" to take the same drugs, creating a cycling culture where everybody takes drugs. What, so that everybody gets cancer..... to win a dam bike race? This is not a nice man. This man is death."



He's a slime ball,

Very well stated. I think about two years ago, when I really started to learn about sociopaths I realized Armstrong was one. He really is an evil person.

 

[Merckx index]

OMG, Bala Verde posted this in the U.S. Politics thread. I wouldn’t even try to argue with people like this. But maybe Scott could.

Even The Onion couldn't make stuff like this up.

Quote:
OBAMA ADMINISTRATION STRIPS LANCE ARMSTRONG OF ALL TOUR-DE-FRANCE TITLES, OLYMPIC MEDAL IN “UNCONSTITUTIONAL WITCH HUNT”

http://patdollard.com/2012/08/obama-...al-witch-hunt/ (Edit: link doesn't work now)

and comments on breitbart indicate imminent meltdown. To the bunkers!

GOTHAM1883
Let's ban the usada. They are just another political party. We still have faith Lance.

BOFB
NEWSBREAK: USADA awards vacated Tour de France titles to President Barack Obama. When asked for comment, President Obama said, "Lance couldn't have won all of these titles on his own. He had some help."

SEEKING_JUSTICE
He didn't build that bicycle. He couldn't have gone so fast if it weren't for smooth government roads to pedal on. I am so sick of this social justice being used at any instance, but especially when it is clearly aimed at those who have surpassed great odds and expectations and people are simply jealous.

RENOHIGHTOWER
The NCAA (another quasi-governing body) has done the same thing in the past: we can't produce any evidence you're guilty, but we think you are guilty, therefore you're guilty. Gives us all a view of life in the former Kremlin

RDMAN_VIETVET
Yeah, and you missed my truth and reason... rumors, allegations, insinuations are not the basis to ruin a man's life's achievements.

The allegations against Clemens were tossed out of court. And so will the allegations against Lance. All of this crap is little more than Nazi gestapo tactics... period.

RDMAN_VIETVET
How many doping tests did Lance undergo during is racing career and the labs came up with Zip, Zero, Nada!!

In the USA, it used to be... Innocent until proven Guilty!!!


RDMAN_VIETVET
What's your problem???? Are you from France or some other socialist gulag.

In all the sophisticated tests and procedures conducted, they found NOTHING!!!

... really is "possible" he's guilty... that allegation would be thrown out on its face in a sane world!! You don't ruin a man's career on "possible!" Where's your proof or evidence???

GLENN47
Yeah and over 500 clean tests mean nothing. He was proven to have the heart and lungs like Secretariat did. He was also one of the hardest trainers ever made.

VALUEENGRING
Really, you jaggons that support the Feds without question are the reason it is the insane all-consuming leviathan of oppression and ex post facto persecution it is, please move to Cuba or Venezuela where you belong.

RON2WIN2
A corrupt government and its agencies can find all the witnesses it needs ,if it wants to get you.The usada has all the ear marks of a smug ,arrogant bureaucratic government worker trying to justify his miserable existence. They have all the time and resources they need to harass you to your grave.As soon as Lance says he's done .The worthless government agent immediately claims victory and trashs Lance . A sure sign that Tygart has been on a vendetta since 1996.No physical evidence in sixteen years of investigating ,just witnesses who have an agenda .He's proclaimed guilty through wispers and innuendo.Americans stand with you Lance ,even if your government dosen't !

MAXPAYNE
The entire sport of world class professional cycling is dishonest and corrupt. Events like the tour de france have become a complete joke. It started in the 60's and has gotten progressively worse. Although Lance has passed every drug test he has ever taken they have kept chipping away at him with accusations. Now they have the witnesses from his former team mates to do him in. Taking away his 7 wins based on accusations of wrong doing is totally wrong especially when he passed all the drug testing at the time. I'm sure all the french and german bicycling fans are celebrating since they have shown no mercy in their hatred of this man. Personally the french can take their stinking bicycle race and put it where the sun don't shine.

1GRIEVOUSANGEL
yeah right...he left needles laying around?? junkie drug addicts hide their stash but we are to believe he left them laying around? I think its a witch hunt....if they had real proof theyd have used it YEARS AGO.. not now..I dont blame him, I'd tell them to #### off in a much less nicer way

GLENN47
Exactly, and if you were going to do it, would you do it in front of of your team?

CHISTEN
Our Government cannot tolerate anyone who can excel on their own. It goes against the rules of socialism. Therefore Lance could not win all those Tour de France, without help. Since it wasn't the Government that helped him, it must be steroids. The USADA has to destroy him, or they must admit that people can be successful on their own abilities! Another hero bites the dust! Look to see any super successful sports athlete, be destroyed the same way! Remember Rollerball?

And another Pulitizer Prize winner who can't be bothered to get his facts straight before writing about LA:

Beginning in 2004, you paid a dollar. The dollar went to cancer research. The research would get that much closer to a cure.

Aside from some suspiciously overlooked positive urine samples, there was no physical proof that Armstrong doped.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id...nder-lance-armstrong-was-never-really-cycling

Some great stuff over at Velorooms. Interview with Bassons:

It's right on time, since I'm organising a debate in November on the role of the media in doping activities. Until now, nobody has given any additional proof of Armstrong's doping. The media reversal depends on this simple decision of his. Journalists are the prisoners of judicial proceedings. Even if some of them wanted to talk about it, they can't get started with anything other than the facts we have so far. Sometimes that's a responsible attitude to have, but all these journalists and these former riders who have jumped on the bandwagon since Friday, all of them already knew about these sorts of doping methods. I think we're far from what the media's role ought to be in the prevention of doping. When we value winners and gold medals above all, how can we be surprised if a sportsperson finds no shame in cheating?

I was riding my first Tour de France in the colours of FDJ. The year before, my previous team Festina had been thrown out of the race due to the scandal we all know about. Up to then, I had never been in line for selection, given my refusal to dope. I was writing a column for Le Parisien in which I would describe my first Tour. I was already known by then as the peloton's "Mr Clean". Very quickly, I realised that we were going a lot faster. Guys would do 200 kilometres without letting up, they were in better shape after eight or nine days' racing than at the start. This is why I say that, not only can you not win the Tour without doping, you can't even really put the hammer down on everyone during a stage. Very quickly, I was sidelined by my DS, Marc Madiot, my teammates. Then Armstrong won a really hard stage to Sestrières. The next day, the peloton decrees that we ride steadily for 100km before disputing the victory in the last 80km to Alpe d'Huez. Being blacklisted, I didn't know any of this, and I ended up hearing about it from a mechanic in my team. So I decided as a provocation to attack from the gun. Lance Armstrong got his team to ride and my own team helped him. I was caught quickly and the American grabbed me by the shoulder, told me I had no place here and finished with the famous "flip you". I just smiled. Two days later, I abandoned the race, worn out by the pressure I'd put up with for the last two weeks. Then I put up with six months of depression.

What do you say to those who defend Armstrong by saying that all riders are doped and therefore he was still a great champion who was better than the rest?

I speak from personal experience. At Festina in winter, I used to drop Virenque on the hills, I tested better than Zülle (world time-trial champion, twice runner up in the Tour). Then, as soon as the programme got underway, I slipped down the hierarchy of the team. You can't hide from that: a rider on EPO gives himself the advantage of a turbo. I think that, between a clean guy who finishes in the top 80 in Paris and the winner who shoots up, there's no difference. If you put them on an equal footing, the 80th guy could perhaps beat the yellow jersey.

http://velorooms.com/the-doping-section/the-official-lance-armstrong-thread/780/

 

[rickshaw]

OMG, Bala Verde posted this in the U.S. Politics thread. I wouldn’t even try to argue with people like this. But maybe Scott could.

Even The Onion couldn't make stuff like this up.

Quote:
OBAMA ADMINISTRATION STRIPS LANCE ARMSTRONG OF ALL TOUR-DE-FRANCE TITLES, OLYMPIC MEDAL IN “UNCONSTITUTIONAL WITCH HUNT”

http://patdollard.com/2012/08/obama-...al-witch-hunt/ (Edit: link doesn't work now)
and comments on breitbart indicate imminent meltdown. To the bunkers!
And another Pulitizer Prize winner who can't be bothered to get his facts straight before writing about LA:
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id...nder-lance-armstrong-was-never-really-cycling
Some great stuff over at Velorooms. Interview with Bassons:
http://velorooms.com/the-doping-section/the-official-lance-armstrong-thread/780/

And they call US "Haters"?

In point of fact, The early Americans had a long and successful history of hunting witches. Furthermore, I have read the Constitution and there is nothing against hunting witches, who in their day, were considered paranormal sociopaths.

 

[lostintime]

SO much for "punishment" .... lol.

Boy, the USADA really cleaned up their sport taking down Armstrong ... NOT !

yeah yeah ... it's in the process of being "cleaned up"

well .. I could say you guys are drinking the same toxic kool-aid as the Armstrong "supporters" .

Since when does "punishment" stop things that have already happened ? Hey ... we kill people legally if we deem them as to kill another . Yet ... people still kill each other every day . Howz that workin' ?

Crime and drugs are as rampant as ever ... despite more punishment than ever. Punishers seek to punish because they themselves have been punished and try to hide from their own guilt for being punished. So the whole charade of guilt and punishment goes on indefinitely.

Punishment doesn't change anything ... except drive the guilt-pain-punishment cycle even further. Punishment punishes ... and that's all it does. I hear so many punishing comments in this forum even. Please .. it's not "just words" ... as the energy behind the words is self hatred. You can't hate anybody or anything without hating yourself first. Trying to take it out on another only makes drives your own guilt for hating yourself even further. So when does the cycle end ? It ends within each of us. It can't be legislated. .. . . or forced or coherced. Oh ... but we try .... oh yes we do ... and trying equals more trying experiences but never gets to the root of the problem.

What's the problem with cycling ? It's not the dope. Not the sport. Not the culture. It's each person within themselves. Everyone is their own problem . . . yet ironically ... they are also their own solution. So what we have before us that appears so messy .... really isn't to me. Ultimately ... everyone is just fine ... but it's one choice to believe this or not.

People only dope or cheat and manipulate to start with because they are in a state of fear and thus believe they are lacking in something. So they'll do anything to try to compensate. Compromise who they truly are ... for who they they think they "should" or "need" to be. Yet no fame or success or drug or external power can ever give them their own sense of identity and well-being. That's inherent to us all and is ever present. It's a matter of .. ... are we listening to ourselves ?

Punishment is like trying to fix your wounds with a band-aid ... it cures nothing. When you get a cut ... does the band-aid heal you ? No .. the healing comes from within the person themselves. A doctor can cut you open and repair leaks and breaks and stitch you back up.... but the real healing comes from within. It is invited from the one who wanted to heal.


Patient ... heal thyself .
or not
it's all a matter of choice

 

[ebandit]

time

time will allow healing

for now the myth still appeals to many...........remember that this myth was carefully constructed over many years

a myth that appealled to ideas of caring hope and endeavour...........traits which people hold dear

the truth will be accepted...............in time

 

[blutto]

And they call US "Haters"?

In point of fact, The early Americans had a long and successful history of hunting witches. Furthermore, I have read the Constitution and there is nothing against hunting witches, who in their day, were considered paranormal sociopaths.

....brilliant, absolutely brilliant....definitely the post of the month...nahhh make that post of the year....

...congrats...

Cheers

blutto

 

[131313]

The Backfire Effect

Good luck with this, but at this point if someone is stupid enough to still believe Armstrong didn't dope, pointing out facts is only going to intensity that belief. Because at the end of the day, you really can't fix stupid:

http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/06/10/the-backfire-effect/

 

[Benotti69]

SO .
.
.
.

it's all a matter of choice

Some people with a certain level of intelligence concerned with the matter of whether Armstrong doped or not might do some research.

Then they would be been better informed and can argue the points and reasons for Armstrong being stripped of his results since 1998 or they would realise they have been led to believe different by those in influential positions who sided with Armstrong to continue to perpetuate the myth.

 

[krebs303]

Involved with a commenter with the usual waste of taxpayer money and USADA is unfair because they have a 95% conviction rate. I told it sounded like they only brought charges if they had strong evidence. And then inquired would the monies be better spent if only had a 50% sanction rate.

 

[Fowsto Cope-E]

Here's a short little essay I wrote on the topic of due process in USADA. I learned a fair bit myself on the process.


The Fifth Amendment of the Constitution says that no person shall “be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.” Lance Armstrong has claimed that USADA has violated his Fifth Amendment right to due process. However, the US District Judge Sam Sparks stated that “the USADA arbitration rules, which largely follow those of the American Arbitration Association, are sufficientl
y robust to satisfy the requirements of due process” (washingtonpost.com).

However, people have dismissed this as just one man’s decision. So, let’s delve into the arbitration process to make our own opinion on the matter. Had Lance chose to contest the charge, he and USADA would have been brought before a American Arbitration Association (AAA) and North American Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) arbitrator, or a 3-person panel of arbitrators if demanded by one of the parties (usatf.org). Similar to choosing a jury in a court case, “the AAA works with the parties to identify and select arbitrators from its roster of neutrals” (adr.org). Only once both parties agree to the arbitrator or panel, the arbitration may proceed (adr.org). Included in the process is a preliminary hearing, a preparation period, and then the actual hearing (adr.org). Afterwards, if the arbitrator(s) agree(s) to it, both parties may submit some final documentation (adr.org). Once the post-hearing documents are sent in, the arbitrator or panel of arbitrators issue its decision (adr.org).

Finally, if WADA, the UCI, or the athlete pleases, they may appeal the AAA decision to the international CAS within 10 days after the decision is announced (usatf.org). The decision of the CAS, however, is final (usatf.org).

http://www.usatf.org/about/​legal/antidoping/​usadaprotocol.asp

http://www.washingtonpost.com/​spor...ae46e-eae1-11e1-866f-60a00f6​04425_story.html

http://www.adr.org/aaa/faces/​servi...frW​indowMode=0&_adf.ctrl-stat​e=1190fvfsky_4