• The Cycling News forum is looking to add some volunteer moderators with Red Rick's recent retirement. If you're interested in helping keep our discussions on track, send a direct message to @SHaines here on the forum, or use the Contact Us form to message the Community Team.

    In the meanwhile, please use the Report option if you see a post that doesn't fit within the forum rules.

    Thanks!

Deja vu? (the Pechstein affaire)

May 13, 2009
3,093
3
0
Visit site
I read that and got a bad case of deja vu.

Here's the highlights:

Blood passport
Reticulocytes
Problems with bar codes of samples.
Two labs analyzing the same sample getting different results.
Appeal to CAS
Incompetent Union.

And, no, for once it's not cycling and the UCI, it's skating and the ISU.
 
Mar 10, 2009
7,268
1
0
Visit site
Cobblestones said:
I read that and got a bad case of deja vu.

Here's the highlights:

Blood passport
Reticulocytes
Problems with bar codes of samples.
Two labs analyzing the same sample getting different results.
Appeal to CAS
Incompetent Union.

And, no, for once it's not cycling and the UCI, it's skating and the ISU.

I think I read in the SZ a couple of days ago that someone, self-identified as 'Claudia's boyfriend', tried to gain access to important data in a lab in Denmark or Sweden...
 
May 13, 2009
3,093
3
0
Visit site
Bala Verde said:
I think I read in the SZ a couple of days ago that someone, self-identified as 'Claudia's boyfriend', tried to gain access to important data in a lab in Denmark or Sweden...

Do you think there'll be a Pechstein fairness fund? Maybe a claim that drinking beer or a shot of single malt might influence the result?
 
Floyd Landis was clearly not doped.

He didn't have a high testosterone level at all. He only had a low epitestosterone level, and thus the test was positive.

..and he ate lots of soy beans, that's why his own testosterone appeared as the artificially produced compound in the test. Oh yes, and did I mention the lab screwed up?
 
Jul 19, 2009
949
0
0
Visit site
Arnout said:
Floyd Landis was clearly not doped.

He didn't have a high testosterone level at all. He only had a low epitestosterone level, and thus the test was positive.

It's not the conclusion of 3 differents entities. Probably you have got more informations than all of them.

BTW the ratio epi/testos is such a screening test to avoid the expensive depense of the IGC/IRMS test, the only which can show the real amount of testosterone.
 
Mar 10, 2009
7,268
1
0
Visit site
Pechstein took her suspension to CAS and soon they will come to a verdict. She is/was fighting on the grounds of:

- suffering from a rare blood disease
- reliability/accuracy of the lab equipment
- plausibility of establishing doping through use of the blood passport

The outcome can be very interesting for the further use of the blood passport.

If CAS comes to a 'positive' conclusion, it appears they will accept the premise that blood profiles (compiled of > 4 samples) by themselves are conclusive evidence of malpractice.
 
Oct 6, 2009
5,270
2
0
Visit site
Bala Verde said:
Pechstein took her suspension to CAS and soon they will come to a verdict. She is/was fighting on the grounds of:

- suffering from a rare blood disease
- reliability/accuracy of the lab equipment
- plausibility of establishing doping through use of the blood passport

The outcome can be very interesting for the further use of the blood passport.

If CAS comes to a 'positive' conclusion, it appears they will accept the premise that blood profiles (compiled of > 4 samples) by themselves are conclusive evidence of malpractice.

And all he!! will break open between AFLD, UCI, WADA, etc.
 
'a wrong cooling of the sample'

That sounds like something LA would say. Is it possible that keeping the samples at slightly higher/cooler temps than normal would change the level of reticulocytes?

Anyway, what kind of dope would cause high levels? I know anaemia can raise levels 'above normal'.
A doped athlete usually has low levels of retics, no?


blood profiles (compiled of > 4 samples)

Less than 4 samples?! That really doesn't sound enough. At a rough guess, how many results would make up the profile an average pro cyclist?
 
luckyboy said:
'a wrong cooling of the sample'

That sounds like something LA would say. Is it possible that keeping the samples at slightly higher/cooler temps than normal would change the level of reticulocytes?

Anyway, what kind of dope would cause high levels? I know anaemia can raise levels 'above normal'.
A doped athlete usually has low levels of retics, no?




Less than 4 samples?! That really doesn't sound enough. At a rough guess, how many results would make up the profile an average pro cyclist?

I haven't read the whole story, but if what they found was high retics without any sort of rEPO evidence then some sort of blood problem would not seem out of the question.
 
Sep 25, 2009
7,527
1
0
Visit site
does any one have a descriptive link, preferably in english to the pechstein case?

i found none in this topic.

if what i gathered in the thread is true, cas will dismiss the case. without a validated formal statistical model ISU has no case proving doping. even the uci's passport model would not be good enough. that's why they chose to indict lowly 5 (?) riders already busted with the direct epo test or those who'd have no means to defend themselves in cas.
 
Mar 10, 2009
7,268
1
0
Visit site
luckyboy said:
Less than 4 samples?! That really doesn't sound enough. At a rough guess, how many results would make up the profile an average pro cyclist?

sorry, wanted to say 4 or greater.

The other thing is that some experts assume CAS is going to uphold the ban. Their reasoning is that if the German Association didn't have strong enough evidence of doping, they would not have dared to suspend her.

for general info in German: Spiegel ; Sueddeutsche Z; Sueddeutsche Z (latest)
 
Sep 25, 2009
7,527
1
0
Visit site
this case is far from clear. i did some searching and found the following interesting details:

(i)the ISU decision was based on a far greater number of tests than just four. in fact they collected 95 pechstein's blood tests over almost a decade.
(ii)the weakness of the isucase against pechstein is that they did not use WADA accredited labs. UCI uses only wada labs for the blood passport
(iii) testing the same sample a laboratory in lausanne reported 1.32% Ret whereas a german laboratory in kreischa reported 2.4%”.
(iiii) the isu rulling was based only on examination of a single blood parameter. the uci blood passport panel uses 7 parameters.
(iiiii) isu did not use a standardized blood collecting procedure recommended by wada.
(vi) the substantive standard of proof used by the ISU does not fit cuurent swiss law used by cas.

i don't think cas will rubber stamp the isu decision.
 
Mar 10, 2009
7,268
1
0
Visit site
python said:
this case is far from clear. i did some searching and found the following interesting details:

(i)the ISU decision was based on a far greater number of tests than just four. in fact they collected 95 pechstein's blood tests over almost a decade.
(ii)the weakness of the isucase against pechstein is that they did not use WADA accredited labs. UCI uses only wada labs for the blood passport
(iii) testing the same sample a laboratory in lausanne reported 1.32% Ret whereas a german laboratory in kreischa reported 2.4%”.
(iiii) the isu rulling was based only on examination of a single blood parameter. the uci blood passport panel uses 7 parameters.
(iiiii) isu did not use a standardized blood collecting procedure recommended by wada.
(vi) the substantive standard of proof used by the ISU does not fit cuurent swiss law used by cas.

i don't think cas will rubber stamp the isu decision.

Re: (I) The 4 samples (or even 3?) are a minimum to establish any blood profile, that's why I mentioned it. They have collected many samples over the years, because I believe they introduced the blood passport earlier in speed skating.

Re (III) According to the newspaper there is always a variation in outcome based on the machines they use to establish values. Every machine has its own standards and limiting values, so it's comparing apples (2.9%) to oranges (1.4%). The prof states it's about the relative variation while using a single testing method.

Experten wie Professor Fritz Sörgel winken da ab. Der Nürnberger Pharmakologe sagt, jeder bessere Laborant wisse, dass Advia höhere Werte messe als Sysmex, weshalb jedes Geräte eigene Normalbereiche habe. Das sagen auch die Dopingfahnder in Köln und Kreischa: Für jeden Gerätetypus brauche es eigene Grenzwerte.

Another thing is, why has she consistently posted 'abnormal' values.

It's certainly not going to be rubber stamped, because it's an entirely new issue, using a blood profile alone to come to a conviction. That's why the outcome could be so important.

I think it's actually today?
 
Sep 25, 2009
7,527
1
0
Visit site
@bala verde

several quick comments.

(i) the variation in %ret between the two labs is very significant. yes it's the relative variation of pechstein's profile that's important (iow a longitudinal study of 14 abnormal out of 95) but she was officially charged with exceeding the isu cutof for %rets -2.4%. that's the main charge from the 15 page isu dc hearing that a read (sorry i don't read german and anyway i don't trust paper journos to properly convey the technical details). when a wada accredited lab finds the %rets half as high as isu i wonder what cas will say about the isu subvendor methods. actually it's a separate technical discussion and things aren't that simple.
(ii) pechstein's is not the first case of the official doping charge on the basis of bio profiling - it's third perhaps. it sure will be the first to go to cas.
(iii) pechstein's biggest weakness is in the fact that she has failed the opportunity to prove that she has an abnormal blood naturally. she was offered it by the hearing panel. she only started to talk about after the verdict i guess as a pr strategy. all in all it looks like she doped but the novelty of the issue and the immaturity of the legal-scientific standards will likely let her skate (pun intended):)

agree the outcome will be ground breaking.
 
Sep 25, 2009
7,527
1
0
Visit site
according to german media cas will publish the groundbreaking decision in two weeks.

pechstein's acquittal will set back the uci biopassport perhaps irreparably.

i think the odds are in her favor.
 
Jul 14, 2009
2,498
0
0
Visit site
Susan Westemeyer said:
And this has what to do with the Claudia Pechstein case or the bio-passport program?

If you are just bragging about your drinking, we aren't interested.

Susan

Landis and Dr. Baker and 2 unnamed employees of the LNDD, all said that possible overuse of cortisone and heavy drinking could have thrown the test results. A passport is a great tool but exceptions can be created in the lab including the drinking variable. WADA should have one lab, chain of custody almost saved Landis.
 
Jul 14, 2009
2,498
0
0
Visit site
Susan Westemeyer said:
Sorry, but there is still no relevance to Pechstein's case. She never failed a test. She was suspended solely on "abnormal blood values".

Susan
I don't dispute that you may no lots more data about the case. I was just making reference to her saying she may have a blood disorder and that her boyfriend has been accused in a fast and loose style, that he tried to gain computer access and view her data. The fact that she didn't come up positive should be the biggest issue. She has said that 8 of 20 of her last tests have some kind of error involved with them. I find the accusation of hacking their data base and the mislabeling and handling of samples a very close parallel to Landis. Additionally I find when one tester is so feeble and unable to get a test (Lance example) and yet another tester acts as a human pit bull and needles a guy while he is out to dinner..all the same issue, lack of a clear plan. Pro skaters should be tested one way, am, skaters another. Pro cyclings involvement in non pro pursuits in my opinion is the biggest component of failure( Olympics), There are only a few 1000 pro cyclists world wide, why they can't be tested 4,6 times a year and randomly at races is still stumping me, how much could the test cost? 200-300 euros? The pro cycling union could earmark these funds in a wink(@1 million otta do). After Katrina I saw Red Cross portable trailers used for blood drives, these could easily be pulled to pro cycling events and test every athlete. Do it old school German/ Belgian style, you get your license back when they get their sample. Lumping in 37 year old female speed skaters is where pro cycling dropped it, the 2 SHOULD have nothing to do with one another.
 
Nov 9, 2009
3
0
0
Visit site
Hello,
Good timing because it happened just this past weekend. It was like deja vus x3 or 4. It was weird enough that I had to stop and think about it. My tone of voice even changed causing other people to notice it.

Whether it means something largely depends on what you make of it. I believe that we as humans occasionally get insight into things our brain doesn't completely understand. I also think that sometimes it seems like our brain is moving at two different speeds and that 'speed bump' when they meet can cause it too.
 
fatandfast said:
yet another tester acts as a human pit bull and needles a guy while he is out to dinner..all the same issue, lack of a clear plan.

That doesn't make much sense to me. The testing is not announced in advance and can happen at any time, so you can't blame the tester for interrupting dinner. The tester offered to go to a hotel, but the rider refused. So the sample was 'provided' onsite and the rider could continue eating dinner. Sounds reasonable to me.

There are only a few 1000 pro cyclists world wide, why they can't be tested 4,6 times a year and randomly at races is still stumping me, how much could the test cost? 200-300 euros?

The independent testing by ACE of Garmin cost almost 200 euro's per test. This was done at specific times, taking samples from many riders at once, so the costs were undoubtably much lower for collecting the samples. The testing and interpretation don't have to stand up in court, so this was probably a lot cheaper too. Nevertheless, ACE went bankrupt.

I expect that testing riders costs something like 400-500 euro's per test.
 

TRENDING THREADS