Denis Menchov v Cadel Evans

[auscyclefan94]

That's exactly what people are saying. It's not about him not winning. It's about him not being able to win. He's simply not as strong as Menchov.
That's what the entire topic is about

Not exactly saying that but I don't think he has been strong enough as the winner to win in some of those GT's though I do think he should have at least 2 GT's with circumstances being in his favour.

 

[BroDeal]

Yes but in a lot of those head-to-heads Menchov gave up really soon.

So he is not only less talented than Evans, he is also a quitter.

 

[blaxland]

Probably the equivalent of bashing my head up against a rock, but here goes. Menchov will finish his career with at least three Grand Tour wins (admittedly his first was by default), and so far Evans has none, but does this mean Menchov is a better rider then Evans, or just been more luckier (or had a better program)? I don't really see a great deal between the two. Both are strong TT riders, and both are not explosive climbers like Contador, so if they both tried riding in a similar fashion, it would not work for them, and only lose time. Evans is certainly a better one day rider though and has bike handling skills that Menchov could only dream about.

I don't want this to turn into a ACF v Dutch/Rabobank fans, but we can have a solid discussion.

Vote in the poll.

For me there is no comparison,even though i like D.Menchoz....And yes he has won 3 gts.Cadel is miles above Menchov in terms of victories,i mean i would rather be a World Champion then win The Giro or Vuelta..Ok if Menchov can win the tour its another story but,he wont..so for me to come second in the biggest bike race in the world(Twice)is a better overall result than winning the Giro/Vuelta...

 

[blaxland]

When has Menchov ever beat Evans in a GT??

When has Menchoz beaten Evans at the TDF??

 

[luckyboy]

At the end of the day, people remember who wins.

Cadel will have won the WC, a classic, a few smaller stage races and podiumed some GT's. Astarloa with GT's
Menchov will have won 3 GT's and some stage races.

I don't think either of them will add the Tour to their respective palmares btw.

Though maybe if Cadel gets a few more 2nd places in the Tour, people will fondly remember him as Poulidor mk.II

 

[jaylew]

It's a tough one. It really comes down to your definition of 'better' rider.

 

[deboat]

The question is "Who is better"
Don't forget Evans won WC MTB!
So not only can he ride on road, he can do it in the dirt too!!

 

[rxgqgxnyfz]

Evans is fun.

He's fun to discuss how he fails and fun to discuss when he succeeds.

He's fun to look at all year, cause he wins one day classics (including world championship) and tries his hardest at GTs.

It's fun to look at his antics on youtube.

It's fun to discuss his childish voice.

It's fun to troll his fans.

Menchov? Not so much.

There isn't that much of a personality coming through that professional self-enclosed armour. The only case of him really showing himself was that animal growl right after his dramatic finish at the end of his victorious Giro (that was great, though).

Menchov wins GTs by being good enough at TTs and mountains.

Evans loses GTs by showing off superb form at TTs and mountains.

But it all comes down to who is more fun and more interesting. And it's Cadel no competition.
________
Lovely Wendie99

 

[mowie133]

2007 Vuelta. Menchov won and Evans finished 4th.

Menchov is better because he has won more. Like someone has said above, the biggest stage race win Evans has to his name is the Tour de Romandie, Menchov has two Vuelta and a Giro, and a win in the Basque Country. I'd say that's pretty decisive in terms of results.

think most of you mupperts forget he took up road raceing real late...so is about 3 or 4 big races down cose of that...evans is miles above menchov..evans has had to ride his bum off with no team help at all...

 

[luckyboy]

think most of you mupperts forget he took up road raceing real late...so is about 3 or 4 big races down cose of that...evans is miles above menchov..evans has had to ride his bum off with no team help at all...

That's nobody else's fault though, is it?

 

[klmorgan]

Evans is fun.

He's fun to discuss how he fails and fun to discuss when he succeeds.

He's fun to look at all year, cause he wins one day classics (including world championship) and tries his hardest at GTs.

It's fun to look at his antics on youtube.

It's fun to discuss his childish voice.

It's fun to troll his fans.

Menchov? Not so much.

There isn't that much of a personality coming through that professional self-enclosed armour. The only case of him really showing himself was that animal growl right after his dramatic finish at the end of his victorious Giro (that was great, though).

Menchov wins GTs by being good enough at TTs and mountains.

Evans loses GTs by showing off superb form at TTs and mountains.

But it all comes down to who is more fun and more interesting. And it's Cadel no competition.

+1

those of us around today, will be able to compare the two via observation of their actual performances (whether they win or not), and you would have to say Evans clearly above Menchov, however those in the future will look at the record books and say Menchov.

by the way, I don't think Menchov will perform at the TdF - he never shows the grit and determination needed to succeed. Evans has this in spades, but will loose out as of the Giro. He should, however finish ahead of Menchov!

 

[Ripper]

I think Menchov is perhaps the only one who can threaten Contador in a GT. That is, if Menchov is as strong as he was last year in the Giro, the parcours is suited for Menchov and he doesn't fall off his bike. A long shot, I know, especially that last bit. Still, Menchov is a really strong rider, stronger than Evans imo. Evans is weaker in the GT's but much stronger in pretty much all other races.

And btw, BMC does look pretty good for this Tour. If Evans would have focused completely on the Tour he would have had a great team supporting him, not necessarily weaker than Astana for instance.

W ... T ... F ?

 

[richo36]

Is Menchov riding the Vuelta this year??? if so ill make a little prediction...

Menchov will come 40something or wont finish the tour then go on and win the vuelta which will have little to no compitetion as all the big names are riding the tour and will be riding there guts out to win. Someone like sastre will come second in the Vuelta to menchov and everyone will say he had big names competiting but really they are not at there peak.

The biggest race in cycling is the TDF. And Menchov is one of the biggest names in the sport but he never has ever rode the TDF seriously. WHY is this????? Because Menchov knows he is not good enough to win with the best riders in the sport, Thererfore he sets his main aims at the secondary races such as the vuelta where the competition isnt as strong as the tour. Cadel however rides the tour every year, which has the best riders at there peaks of there training.

I believe they are similar, The main in difference is that Menchov is smarter to relise he isnt good enough to win the tour. In saying that i dont know if evans thinks he is good enough to win the tour but knowing that it is the peak of the sport his competitveness is what drives him to ride it every year considering his chances are much greater if he rode the vulta as his primary GT.

 

[issoisso]

The biggest race in cycling is the TDF. And Menchov is one of the biggest names in the sport but he never has ever rode the TDF seriously.

Yes, you're right.....other than 2003, 2006 and 2008. In other words, you're wrong

WHY is this????? Because Menchov knows he is not good enough to win with the best riders in the sport, Thererfore he sets his main aims at the secondary races such as the vuelta where the competition isnt as strong as the tour. Cadel however rides the tour every year, which has the best riders at there peaks of there training.


I believe they are similar
The main in difference is that Menchov is smarter to relise he isnt good enough to win the tour. In saying that i dont know if evans thinks he is good enough to win the tour but knowing that it is the peak of the sport his competitveness is what drives him to ride it every year considering his chances are much greater if he rode the vulta as his primary GT.

Name one year when Menchov didn't ride the Tour

 

[mowie133]

That's nobody else's fault though, is it?

is if you use it as a reason to say hee isn't as good...if you add those years to his over all results he would of more then likely of won the tour de france twice...

 

[hrotha]

+1

those of us around today, will be able to compare the two via observation of their actual performances (whether they win or not), and you would have to say Evans clearly above Menchov, however those in the future will look at the record books and say Menchov.

by the way, I don't think Menchov will perform at the TdF - he never shows the grit and determination needed to succeed. Evans has this in spades, but will loose out as of the Giro. He should, however finish ahead of Menchov!

Huh? I'd still say Menchov at his best is a better climber and a similar time trialer than Evans at his best. You may disagree, but to say Evans is "clearly" above Menchov seems a bit hasty to me.

 

[Inner Peace]

Evans is a better Tour de France rider than Menchov

Menchov has better results in Giro/Vuelta

Menchov has won his two Vuelta's after a dismal fail at the race he prepared for.

Evans tried this same thing in 2009, and lost a GT by a puncture.

Evans was beaten by a better rider in the Giro, and by better riders in the Tour's he's podiumed.

Basically, I think head to head, Evans is a better all-round rider.

The reason he hasn't had the GT wins Menchov has is because Evans has targeted the hardest GT to win (note I said 'win' - The Giro is by far the hardest Giro to finish) against the hardest opposition.

Menchov has beaten lesser riders in his GT wins than Evans has lost to. Menchov could never have beaten Contador at the 2008 Giro and 2008 Vuelta if he chose to race those, nor could he have beaten Evans in the TDFs they have competed together (05-09, Evans is always above Menchov)

The only time I can think Menchov has beaten Evans in a GT was 2007, when Evans had come just 23 seconds off Contador (the best we've seen from this era) and Menchov quit the race to prepare for Spain.

Whilst Evans would love a GT win, he has to be satisfied that he fought out his 'losses' with integrity and honesty, which for some people, is more important than winning at all

 

[M Sport]

I think Menchov is perhaps the only one who can threaten Contador in a GT. That is, if Menchov is as strong as he was last year in the Giro, the parcours is suited for Menchov and he doesn't fall off his bike.

Funniest post of the thread lol

And like most others have said, Evans better, Menchov has more results ... arguably. I mean really, does the Vuelta really count much more than any other lower level stage race?

 

[klmorgan]

Huh? I'd still say Menchov at his best is a better climber and a similar time trialer than Evans at his best. You may disagree, but to say Evans is "clearly" above Menchov seems a bit hasty to me.

Opinions are opinions, and my statement is as an overall package as a rider, including the personalities that make the fans want to support him. Evans, has it all, Menchov does not. He has the skills, like Evans, but as a complete package he is not near Evans.

Personally, despite being and Australian and hoping for an Australian winner of a GT, I believe that neither rider is anywhere near Contador and the Shlecks, with Contador being a step above as a complete rider.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Evans tried this same thing in 2009, and lost a GT by a puncture.

This is a fallacy. The amount of time lost due to the puncture is more than the time he subsequently gained on Valverde. Even after the puncture, he joined the Samuel Sánchez group (who had also been dropped) and Sánchez subsequently dropped Evans and came in before him, and put in a better final time trial. If not for the puncture, then Valverde may still have won the Vuelta, and if he didn't, it would have been Sánchez that picked up the pieces, not Evans. Evans lost 1'18" to Valverde on that stage (1'26" with the 3rd place bonus seconds), and lost out by 1'32" on the GC overall. However, he lost a minute to Sammy Sánchez, who finished 37" ahead of him on the overall GC, and that was after Sánchez dropped him. Sánchez gained 4 seconds on him in the ITT.

Also, Evans spent all of week 3 sulking and didn't attack at any point, and also lost 20 more seconds to La Pandera.

Now, he might have been more motivated or put in a better showing elsewise had he not punctured, but ultimately, Sánchez proved stronger than him, limiting his losses to Sierra Nevada far better and coming in with Valverde on La Pandera.

 

[auscyclefan94]

This is a fallacy. The amount of time lost due to the puncture is more than the time he subsequently gained on Valverde. Even after the puncture, he joined the Samuel Sánchez group (who had also been dropped) and Sánchez subsequently dropped Evans and came in before him, and put in a better final time trial. If not for the puncture, then Valverde may still have won the Vuelta, and if he didn't, it would have been Sánchez that picked up the pieces, not Evans. Evans lost 1'18" to Valverde on that stage (1'26" with the 3rd place bonus seconds), and lost out by 1'32" on the GC overall. However, he lost a minute to Sammy Sánchez, who finished 37" ahead of him on the overall GC, and that was after Sánchez dropped him. Sánchez gained 4 seconds on him in the ITT.

Also, Evans spent all of week 3 sulking and didn't attack at any point, and also lost 20 more seconds to La Pandera.

Now, he might have been more motivated or put in a better showing elsewise had he not punctured, but ultimately, Sánchez proved stronger than him, limiting his losses to Sierra Nevada far better and coming in with Valverde on La Pandera.

At last year's vuelta, he was definetly 2nd and possibly 1st without the puncture.

Sanchez never proved to be stronger than him. He hardly sulked at all. yes sammy was stronger on two stages but you could pick out other stages where evans was stronger. Fact is, if evans did not puncture he would of finished ahead of Sammy. Valverde was going to struggle to get a gap on that stage except in the sprint because the climb is not overly steep.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

At last year's vuelta, he was definetly 2nd and possibly 1st without the puncture.

Sanchez never proved to be stronger than him. He hardly sulked at all. yes sammy was stronger on two stages but you could pick out other stages where evans was stronger. Fact is, if evans did not puncture he would of finished ahead of Sammy. Valverde was going to struggle to get a gap on that stage except in the sprint because the climb is not overly steep.

But Evans was in the Sánchez group and lost a minute to the Asturian by the end of the stage. The following day he lost 18" to Sánchez. And Sánchez out-TTed him in both of the decent length TTs. And despite the new-found 'attacking Evans' that has won over critics and cynics in the last year or so surfacing in the Dauphiné, the only Evans attack in that entire Vuelta was on Xorret del Catí (when he was stronger than Sánchez, and where Sánchez lost the Vuelta). After the puncture? Evans never so much as feinted to have a dart.

The strongest climbers in that Vuelta were Robert Gesink and Ezequiel Mosquera, but crashes derailed their challenges. Even if we assume Evans came in with the Valverde group on Sierra Nevada (a big assumption) had he not punctured, he still didn't gain as much time as the gap between Sánchez and him on the GC.

There is a chance that, with the energy not spent on Sierra Nevada after the puncture, Evans could have won the Vuelta, but it is a pure fallacy to state that he lost the Vuelta because of that, because even without that there could have been any one of three winners (Valverde, Sánchez and Evans).

 

[issoisso]

Evans lost 29s with the puncture (I clocked it), and finished over a minute and a half behind the winner.

How on earth does that equate to him either being the strongest or winning?
It's completely illogical to suggest so. He was beaten on the climbs and he was beaten in the time trials.

 

[Angliru]

think most of you mupperts forget he took up road raceing real late...so is about 3 or 4 big races down cose of that...evans is miles above menchov..evans has had to ride his bum off with no team help at all...

I'm sure the riders that protected him from the wind on the flats and fetched bottles for him would beg to differ. Ultimately he chose the teams he rode for so it's a mess of his own making.

 

[Angliru]

+1

those of us around today, will be able to compare the two via observation of their actual performances (whether they win or not), and you would have to say Evans clearly above Menchov, however those in the future will look at the record books and say Menchov.

by the way, I don't think Menchov will perform at the TdF - he never shows the grit and determination needed to succeed. Evans has this in spades, but will loose out as of the Giro. He should, however finish ahead of Menchov!

...so Menchov won the Giro without "grit and determination"? What race were you watching?