Teams & Riders Derek Gee is the new G

[Berniece]

It influences football way more than you think (plenty of footballers who threaten to break their contract or do other weird stuff to get of a club so that the club can't do anything else than to cooperate with them), and the consequences aren't fully known yet.

Football transfer system is horrible in many ways, I find it kinda hilarious that someone would want to copy it. But besides that, this discussion is one of the worst I've had on here. I respect you as a poster here, but just ignoring the facts and keep suggesting that the UCI should do something they know is illegal and would risk a lawsuit they would lose, is annoying. I wish they could block it, to put all these greedy riders in their place, but they can't. It's that simple, and a transfer system is not changing that (if anything it would make it worse). A team or the UCI wouldn't have a leg to stand on, in most countries at least (cause obviously the international character of this sport makes it even more complicated).

Well in that case riders can just do whatever they want. It’s a free for all, and the more riders take a similar approach like Gee, the more will do the same until it’s normal.

I’m just an advocate for a better system. Not saying I know what that solution is.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Well in that case riders can just do whatever they want. It’s a free for all, and the more riders take a similar approach like Gee, the more will do the same until it’s normal.

I’m just an advocate for a better system. Not saying I know what that solution is.

But you seem to be suggesting that the football system is far better than what we have and pushing hard for it as a better system than what we have now, and people are pointing out the drawbacks of a football system and why these tentative moves towards that system are unwelcome to them. You admit yourself that it would massively exacerbate the current problem of top-heaviness where all the best riders are concentrated into 3-4 teams and everybody else is an also-ran. Nearly every football league in Europe has a power structure where a small handful of teams holds all the power and can destabilise any threat to their group by unsettling star players, like we're seeing with Ademola Lookman in Italy and Alexander Isak in England at the moment. But in cycling, you don't have the option of just watching a different match at that level, because those teams who are buying out the competition and dominating left right and centre will be there at every race at that level, resulting in a dull, predictable spectacle.

Only a football-style system will only lead to that becoming worse because we'll be all too aware that if anybody shows any sign of upsetting the apple cart, they'll be tapped up and signed into the same system - just like how that Ajax team (AJAX!) were dismantled completely after making the CL semi-finals a few years ago with big La Liga and EPL teams picking them clean, or the Leicester City team being gutted of all bar a couple of the men that carried them to an EPL title. That's a situation we're already seeing developing, and a future many cycling fans would not welcome, because the cast of thousands element of the sport is something to celebrate, and a closed shop at the top is only really thereby workable if you have a US Sports style parity system with draft rights and salary caps - two things that would be hard to enforce across the multiple borders and legal systems of a largely EU-based sport.

 

[Red Rick]

Ineos are definitely getting him to replace Onana.

 

[Red Rick]

Only a football-style system will only lead to that becoming worse because we'll be all too aware that if anybody shows any sign of upsetting the apple cart, they'll be tapped up and signed into the same system - just like how that Ajax team (AJAX!) were dismantled completely after making the CL semi-finals a few years ago with big La Liga and EPL teams picking them clean, or the Leicester City team being gutted of all bar a couple of the men that carried them to an EPL title.

Ajax got a metric shitload of money for all these players, and they nearly all flopped at big clubs. Ajax' entire financial model was heavily based on having a heavily positive transfer balance.

To me it simply seems that of the shitty options, rider buy outs are less shitty than riders just ditching their contract whenever they want, because that favors the big teams even more.

 

[Berniece]

But you seem to be suggesting that the football system is far better than what we have and pushing hard for it as a better system than what we have now, and people are pointing out the drawbacks of a football system and why these tentative moves towards that system are unwelcome to them. You admit yourself that it would massively exacerbate the current problem of top-heaviness where all the best riders are concentrated into 3-4 teams and everybody else is an also-ran. Nearly every football league in Europe has a power structure where a small handful of teams holds all the power and can destabilise any threat to their group by unsettling star players, like we're seeing with Ademola Lookman in Italy and Alexander Isak in England at the moment. But in cycling, you don't have the option of just watching a different match at that level, because those teams who are buying out the competition and dominating left right and centre will be there at every race at that level, resulting in a dull, predictable spectacle.

Only a football-style system will only lead to that becoming worse because we'll be all too aware that if anybody shows any sign of upsetting the apple cart, they'll be tapped up and signed into the same system - just like how that Ajax team (AJAX!) were dismantled completely after making the CL semi-finals a few years ago with big La Liga and EPL teams picking them clean, or the Leicester City team being gutted of all bar a couple of the men that carried them to an EPL title. That's a situation we're already seeing developing, and a future many cycling fans would not welcome, because the cast of thousands element of the sport is something to celebrate, and a closed shop at the top is only really thereby workable if you have a US Sports style parity system with draft rights and salary caps - two things that would be hard to enforce across the multiple borders and legal systems of a largely EU-based sport.

Maybe football isn’t the best comparison, but I feel like cycling’s transfer system should evolve into more of a marketplace. Teams should be able to buy and sell riders more openly, as long as the riders themselves actually want to move. What I don’t want is an “American-style” setup where athletes are treated like property and have no say in their own transfers.

I know rider transfers already exist, but it doesn’t really seem embedded in the culture of cycling yet. Most riders just complete their contracts and then look for a new team, rather than teams actively thinking about acquiring talent, developing riders, and potentially selling them on for profit.

Of course, this isn’t easy. Different countries have different laws, and there’s always the risk that the wealthiest teams simply scoop up all the best riders. Still, there might be lessons to learn from the NFL. They enforce a hard salary cap and use a draft system to support weaker teams, though obviously the draft idea wouldn’t translate directly to cycling.

At the end of the day, I just think the system needs change and I'm spitballing about what that might be. These are only rough ideas, and I might be wrong about parts of it, but it’s worth discussing how cycling could fix the current model.

 

[Ripper]

Ineos are definitely getting him to replace Onana.

Do you think so or did you hear more?

 

[Red Rick]

Do you think so or did you hear more?

That was me trying to make a funny out of Manchester United losing to team from the 4th tier primarily because of Onana's lack of goalkeeping abilities.

 

[Ripper]

That was me trying to make a funny out of Manchester United losing to team from the 4th tier primarily because of Onana's lack of goalkeeping abilities.

As you can tell from my ignorance, I am totally out of the loop when it comes to football

 

[Unchained]

Maybe football isn’t the best comparison, but I feel like cycling’s transfer system should evolve into more of a marketplace. Teams should be able to buy and sell riders more openly, as long as the riders themselves actually want to move. What I don’t want is an “American-style” setup where athletes are treated like property and have no say in their own transfers.

I know rider transfers already exist, but it doesn’t really seem embedded in the culture of cycling yet. Most riders just complete their contracts and then look for a new team, rather than teams actively thinking about acquiring talent, developing riders, and potentially selling them on for profit.

Of course, this isn’t easy. Different countries have different laws, and there’s always the risk that the wealthiest teams simply scoop up all the best riders. Still, there might be lessons to learn from the NFL. They enforce a hard salary cap and use a draft system to support weaker teams, though obviously the draft idea wouldn’t translate directly to cycling.

At the end of the day, I just think the system needs change and I'm spitballing about what that might be. These are only rough ideas, and I might be wrong about parts of it, but it’s worth discussing how cycling could fix the current model.

This Gee situation is different than other sports because of ownership, UCI, riders union system.. These last years will certainly have a chilling effect on sponsorship. If you put a bunch of money and marketing, exposure expectations behind someone like Ayuso, Remco, Gee, Froome, Cian, ect and the rider that attracted your money and attention is allowed to leave via contract collapse, you should be given your money back at a minimum, possibly pay damages.
UCI has to take more responsibility for the product. Can't have slow moving train wreck like Remco, with his father blabbing early because he mistook how close, how sure a deal was..
If UCI makes rider contracts equal to toilet paper, sponsors will take notice.. UCI can't even tell sponsors how much money other sponsors are putting into cycling teams because of lack of accurate reporting and transparency. And numbers are crazy variations.. Can't tell if a team is getting money, from who, how much.
You can't really tell if pay to play resentment is widespread from casual fans. Are average people really that angry, aware of teams like UAE and Visma having disproportionate results via increase in spending. Here and other cycling specific forums you see some level of anger, disappointment that some teams can buy results, or that's how it appears. Reading on another popular site, Israel manager says some scary stuff, riders really rattled about dangerous conditions, personal safety, fan negative reactions, including verbal, physical, including spitting on them screaming things like " murderer ". That itself is hard for some cycling fans, myself included. But what really strikes me are all the comments wishing team will immediately cease operations and all riders and staff all losing their jobs. That is widespread also.

 

[pastronef]

well, it looks like Derek Gee chose the right moment to try to leave his team. I like Derek, I hope he succeeds in freeing up

 

[aruipksni]

well, it looks like Derek Gee chose the right moment to try to leave his team. I like Derek, I hope he succeeds in freeing up

Well, you make him look like a rat leaving a sinking ship. Anyway, now that Ayuso, who is a bigger and fresher fish, is free, INEOS doesn’t need him anymore, so he might find himself empty-handed on both counts

 

[Potomac]

Maybe Gee is scared of being on IPT? Fearing for his safety?

 

[pastronef]

Well, you make him look like a rat leaving a sinking ship. Anyway, now that Ayuso, who is a bigger and fresher fish, is free, INEOS doesn’t need him anymore, so he might find himself empty-handed on both counts

do I? no, I said he did the right choice even before israel's situation became unstable
Ayuso will go to Lidl-Trek

 

[hayneplane]

Well, you make him look like a rat leaving a sinking ship. Anyway, now that Ayuso, who is a bigger and fresher fish, is free, INEOS doesn’t need him anymore, so he might find himself empty-handed on both counts

[content deleted]

As a a side note I wonder what premier tech think of the whole situation given that they are a Canadian company and are about to lose the only current elite or semi elite professional male rider in the sport from their team. What is the tipping point that makes them question their ongoing involvement in the team.