Dertie Contador's allergies and his TUEs

[Mrs John Murphy]

Do you have such high standards of proof for every rider or just some? I mean the next time someone is accusing Menchov, Vino or Basso of being dirty will you be there demanding evidence?

Was it innuendo for CN to draw attention to the fact that Vino had been in Tenerife where Fuentes lives? Is that worse than pointing out that in 2004 EPO was considered to have played a role in Contador's fall/stroke? or that epilepsy medicine was one of the medicines that the French authorities found in the Astana bin and highlighted in the press later?

 

[alberto.legstrong]

Do you have such high standards of proof for every rider or just some? I mean the next time someone is accusing Menchov, Vino or Basso of being dirty will you be there demanding evidence?

Was it innuendo for CN to draw attention to the fact that Vino had been in Tenerife where Fuentes lives? Is that worse than pointing out that in 2004 EPO was considered to have played a role in Contador's fall/stroke? or that epilepsy medicine was one of the medicines that the French authorities found in the Astana bin and highlighted in the press later?

If we all stipulate to the fact that he is PROBABLY/CERTAINLY doping, then after that, what in the world is your point? That his incessant winning irritates you? The pistolero salute? That people who don't have any agenda meet him and come away pleased by his personality?

If he got completely whipped in this year's tdf, would that provide you some measure of solace?

Step out from behind your mask and reveal your agenda. Or can you not afford to do that?

 

[Publicus]

Do you have such high standards of proof for every rider or just some? I mean the next time someone is accusing Menchov, Vino or Basso of being dirty will you be there demanding evidence?

Was it innuendo for CN to draw attention to the fact that Vino had been in Tenerife where Fuentes lives? Is that worse than pointing out that in 2004 EPO was considered to have played a role in Contador's fall/stroke? or that epilepsy medicine was one of the medicines that the French authorities found in the Astana bin and highlighted in the press later?

Yes actually I do. But that's just me and a peculiarity of my background. Merely making a salacious comment is not proof of anything other than one's ability to make a salacious comment. You take it face value and move on.

And as for finding anti-seizure medicine in the provided medical waste containers, I don't find anything remarkable about that at all. Especially if AC is legitimately having to take the stuff. It's one thing if it's found in Saxo Bank's medical waste and no rider has a history of seizures. It's quite another for Astana where there is at least one rider who has a legitimate use for the stuff.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Alberto - LOL. Years of Armstrong have made you paranoid. No agenda other than a curious mind. A genuine question about illnesses claimed and TUEs. I'd ask the same question if it were Cuddles, Menchov, Armstrong, Basso or Wiggins.

Found out some interesting things about allergy medicines and about epilepsy medicines, found out that Contador fanboys are as sensitive as Armstrong fanboys, found out that the line about him having the same problem as his brother is untrue. Still haven't found out if EPO played a role in his stroke/accident, still haven't found out if his allergies and epilepsy are as severe as he claims.

Publicus - its a claimed need rather than a cast iron proven need. Rider claims he needs it, like Petacchi claimed he was asthmatic. I am pretty sure that someone will produce a TUE for the manic depression medicine found in the bin as well. That doesn't necessarily mean that we can be certain that its use was totally legitimate.

 

[Publicus]

Publicus - its a claimed need rather than a cast iron proven need. Rider claims he needs it, like Petacchi claimed he was asthmatic. I am pretty sure that someone will produce a TUE for the manic depression medicine found in the bin as well. That doesn't necessarily mean that we can be certain that its use was totally legitimate.

Ok. It's not cast iron proven, so that means it's false? On balance I would say what is known favors his explanation over yours.

 

[alberto.legstrong]

Alberto - LOL. Years of Armstrong have made you paranoid. No agenda other than a curious mind. A genuine question about illnesses claimed and TUEs. I'd ask the same question if it were Cuddles, Menchov, Armstrong, Basso or Wiggins.

Found out some interesting things about allergy medicines and about epilepsy medicines, found out that Contador fanboys are as sensitive as Armstrong fanboys, found out that the line about him having the same problem as his brother is untrue. Still haven't found out if EPO played a role in his stroke/accident, still haven't found out if his allergies and epilepsy are as severe as he claims.

Publicus - its a claimed need rather than a cast iron proven need. Rider claims he needs it, like Petacchi claimed he was asthmatic. I am pretty sure that someone will produce a TUE for the manic depression medicine found in the bin as well. That doesn't necessarily mean that we can be certain that its use was totally legitimate.

So far off it isn't worth responding. Suffice to say I was an Armstrong fan until he decided to expose himself last year as the spoiled sport that he is. And that is putting quite kindly.

Once again, you evade the direct question. You can't afford to drop the mask.

 

[alberto.legstrong]

Alberto - LOL. Years of Armstrong have made you paranoid. No agenda other than a curious mind. A genuine question about illnesses claimed and TUEs. I'd ask the same question if it were Cuddles, Menchov, Armstrong, Basso or Wiggins.

Found out some interesting things about allergy medicines and about epilepsy medicines, found out that Contador fanboys are as sensitive as Armstrong fanboys, found out that the line about him having the same problem as his brother is untrue. Still haven't found out if EPO played a role in his stroke/accident, still haven't found out if his allergies and epilepsy are as severe as he claims.

Publicus - its a claimed need rather than a cast iron proven need. Rider claims he needs it, like Petacchi claimed he was asthmatic. I am pretty sure that someone will produce a TUE for the manic depression medicine found in the bin as well. That doesn't necessarily mean that we can be certain that its use was totally legitimate.

To the bold section, I was a fan of his until he made a perfect @s$ of himself last year, so your prejudice precedes you, sir, not me. I am not in the least bit a pollyanna about any of the top gc guys in Europe. I have a little more faith in North American racers (racing HERE, not in Europe) but it's prolly just a matter of time before the rest of them join the arms race.

I think everyone is pretty sensitive to idiotic posters who just keep going in circles. Doesn't really have a whole lot to do with who/what they defend, but there certainly seems to be a more personal streak and a really deep commitment to the myth with those who defend LA.

He's truly a creep on just about every imaginable level and I think some people just like to drag his rivals down to try and draw some sort of comparison between him and them which is tedious to say the least.

Are 99.9% of top gc guys in a gt doping? no effing siht, they are, Sherlock.

Once again, you evade the direct question. You can't afford to drop the mask.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Ok. It's not cast iron proven, so that means it's false? On balance I would say what is known favors his explanation over yours.

Fair enough, and I choose to remain skeptical on the basis of his conduct and connections.

Alberto - you fanboys do make me chuckle - if in doubt question the motives of the questioner? You've learnt well grasshopper.

 

[Publicus]

Fair enough, and I choose to remain skeptical on the basis of his conduct and connections.

Which I don't begrudge anyone. Skepticism in moderate doses is a good thing.

 

[alberto.legstrong]

Fair enough, and I choose to remain skeptical on the basis of his conduct and connections.

Alberto - you fanboys do make me chuckle - if in doubt question the motives of the questioner? You've learnt well grasshopper.

Fanboy of what? Honesty? Sincerity? Reality?

you can't answer simple questions. tough to really care what you think.

I've already stipulated to your allegation that he and just about any gt rider is doping. Keep hidin', brotha'

 

[python]

Alberto - LOL. A genuine question about illnesses claimed and TUEs.

i've managed to stay away from this thread so far though i admit i read it sporadically.

no, i don't view your question any longer as genuine after it was repeated by you 8-10 times and answered by others 8-10 times in good faith and tone.

let me give it to you straight - deal with it cus i wont repeat nor engage in a wasteful effort - your aim is not to seek answers nor knowledge but to bait/flame and rile contadors's fans.

in that you have succeed. but have you added to the board's content ?

...Do we really need a new thread about one particular doper every time some idiot tries to divert attention from his favorite doper by raising speculation about another one?
The Flandis situation is the thing worth focusing speculation on.

not an idiot and not to divert but to gain it.

 

[131313]

no, i don't view your question any longer as genuine after it was repeated by you 8-10 times and answered by others 8-10 times in good faith and tone.

let me give it to you straight - deal with it cus i wont repeat nor engage in a wasteful effort - your aim is not to seek answers nor knowledge but to bait/flame and rile contadors's fans.

I thought about providing a thoughtful and fairly informed answer, but didn't for the reasons given above. Bottom line, anticonvulsants are not going to provide a benefit to an endurance athlete (they're only banned because they could, in theory benefit participants in 'steady hand' sports like shooting, archery, etc). They could, on the other hand have a deleterious effect.

Likewise, long-term use of inhaled beta-2 agonists and/or corticosteroids in someone who is asymptomatic is most likely going to be counterproductive. I've never heard a good reason articulated as to why they're banned. They wouldn't be effective as a masking agent. My guess is they're banned more because of the perception that they'll "help anyone breath better".

 

[Wheels Go Round and Round]

He went down for doing the same danm thing everyone else was doing, one guy flies on private jets, the other sleeps on good samaritan's couches. And yet this is an affront to your sensibilities.....

The only part that stuns me is what took him 4 years for it to dawn on him.

having spent time in the Military and in harms way.......... it's not much different than pow's giving up their buddies locations just because they were captured..... a little extreme but this is what he signed up for............

generals etc sure don't live the same lifestyle of the grunts in the field either.........it's called the food chain

deal with it like a man.......... not some little pussy who cries foul 4yrs later

jmho

 

[Colm.Murphy]

having spent time in the Military and in harms way.......... it's not much different than pow's giving up their buddies locations just because they were captured..... a little extreme but this is what he signed up for............

generals etc sure don't live the same lifestyle of the grunts in the field either.........it's called the food chain

deal with it like a man.......... not some little pussy who cries foul 4yrs later

jmho

The parallel is simply not there. You are wrong. It is not the same.

Now, if you were a stockbroker, and were doing the same insider trading (as you were taught by your boss), and then went in business with your own firm and were caught doing what is the norm, you'd be miffed. All the more miffed you'd be if you knew that your old boss could "make it go away", so much so that you might happen to make mention of it the next time you discussed your case with those who busted you.

It has nothing to do with warrior code, honor among thieves or other romantic themes that shroud the core weaknesses of men.

If anything, it is an insult to real soldiers to make the comparison.

JMHO.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

i've managed to stay away from this thread so far though i admit i read it sporadically.

no, i don't view your question any longer as genuine after it was repeated by you 8-10 times and answered by others 8-10 times in good faith and tone.

let me give it to you straight - deal with it cus i wont repeat nor engage in a wasteful effort - your aim is not to seek answers nor knowledge but to bait/flame and rile contadors's fans.

in that you have succeed. but have you added to the board's content ?

not an idiot and not to divert but to gain it.

Have a biscuit big man and pat yourself on back as a self appointed member of the forum police who is able to tell people what they are or are not doing.

You guys are so paranoid it's almost funny. I asked the question, I got some answers (especially the stuff about allergies etc) which was useful, and some stuff which was contradictory and some stuff that was just nonsense.

If you don't like it then don't bother reading, no need to run around posting like some internet John Wayne on speed. If you don't like it then put me on ignore. It's a dead simple move.

131313 - my initial thoughts were that they would be more to do with masking, but I am not sure how something would mask another - if we take a more concrete case - the Hamilton case - he was using HMG to mask the steroids he was taking. How would HMG for example mask the steroids that TH was already taking?

Alberto - sorry but I've no idea what you are on about.

 

[dolophonic]

Mate, what are you going on about ?

 

[python]

if you don't like being disagreed with and discovered for your real intentions big mouth then don't bother reading.

the paranoid party here is you because you repeat the same and the same and the same and the same and the same so many times that it become obvious what are your intentions.

the answers you got are obviously some fuel for you to continue flaming/bating and repeating the same tired and overused crap.

i repeat the very obvious -- your aim is not to get answers but to flame and bait people, big mouth.

 

[flicker]

i think the "allergy" excuse is less about getting a TUE and more an excuse/explanation for the jump in form that will happen at tour time compared to when he appeared subpar at the crit international and blamed allergies.

"allergies" is used to explain why he is not very dominant at that time -- due to a lack of blood supplementation. it is similar to armstrong's excuses at gila and now he pops up in much better "form" suddenly in time for the wind up for the tour. remember ullrich being dropped after 50 K in the ardennes only to win the giro time trial or ride people off his wheel in the mountains of the tour de suisse. this "preparation" and "peaking" (as they call it) is basically when they start stuffing their arteries with extras.

think about it. how does armstrong go from 8th over a minute down on an under 23 rider (at gila for chrissakes!) to now being one of the top riders at luxembourg with practically no racing, an injury and travel to Europe (let alone a scandal!)...? this is ferrari's first step. there will be another jump for the tour de suisse and then the tour...when armstrong podiums or makes top 5 at the tour it makes the sport utterly ridiculous.

I do not agree. The way the tour specialists and classic specialists train is they train in secret have some poor results before a peak. It is all math and their particular phsiollogy. It took 2 years for Basso to come up to speed. sometimes riders go down for a year or two with no results before they are awesome. Of course sometimes it is the other way with dope.

 

[Wheels Go Round and Round]

If anything, it is an insult to real soldiers to make the comparison.

JMHO.

I served 8 yrs in the Marine Corps
I earned that right

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

if you don't like being disagreed with and discovered for your real intentions big mouth then don't bother reading.

the paranoid party here is you because you repeat the same and the same and the same and the same and the same so many times that it become obvious what are your intentions.

the answers you got are obviously some fuel for you to continue flaming/bating and repeating the same tired and overused crap.

i repeat the very obvious -- your aim is not to get answers but to flame and bait people, big mouth.

If I minded being disagreed with then I wouldn't post on a discussion board.

And yes you are paranoid because it seems that anyone who asks any controversial question or is not happy with the answers is immediately accused of trolling.

So what, we shouldn't ask any questions of certain riders in case it upsets people? Please, can you provide me with a list of approved riders who we are allowed to question? Or we should only ask certain questions in a certain way? Perhaps you can give me a maximum number of times I am allowed to ask a question in a thread?

If I've had to repeat stuff its because people have misunderstood my questions, or not really answered the question I've asked.

If this topic pains you so much then why are you and the other complainers posting in it? Stop posting and it'll drop down the board like a stone and then you won't have it offending your eyes anymore.

 

[python]

the proof that you are paranoid is in your misusing and nervous misinterpreting others. paranoid is probably an understatement.

i never used the word 'troll' but you saw it then obviously you know what you are doing

good buy paranoid, i will not waste any more time on you as it's obvious you can't take a disagreement.

 

[131313]

131313 - my initial thoughts were that they would be more to do with masking, but I am not sure how something would mask another - if we take a more concrete case - the Hamilton case - he was using HMG to mask the steroids he was taking. How would HMG for example mask the steroids that TH was already taking?

The mechanism of masking agents depends what's being used, but as far as the use of HMG, it's used to stimulate natural test production, typically after a period of synthetic testosterone use.

You can give this a read, but I'd suggest doping with No-Doze beforehand. It's a real snoozer unless pharmacokinetics is your thing: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2439513/

For a quick overview of how masking agents work, this is a good primer: http://www.nsca-lift.org/Education/NPEDP/NPEDPMEM/maskagents.shtml

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

The mechanism of masking agents depends what's being used, but as far as the use of HMG, it's used to stimulate natural test production, typically after a period of synthetic testosterone use.

You can give this a read, but I'd suggest doping with No-Doze beforehand. It's a real snoozer unless pharmacokinetics is your thing: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2439513/

For a quick overview of how masking agents work, this is a good primer: http://www.nsca-lift.org/Education/NPEDP/NPEDPMEM/maskagents.shtml

Thanks. Interesting info especially the primer. One question - with the list of substances/compounds - do you know what kind of medication each would be found in? For example what medications is Acetazolamide used in or Amiloride?

I'll look at the other link tomorrow.

Edit: I just checked out Acetazolamide which is the first on the list of diuretics on the primer and it turns out that it is used in the treatment of epilepsy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetazolamide

 

[131313]

Thanks. Interesting info especially the primer. One question - with the list of substances/compounds - do you know what kind of medication each would be found in? For example what medications is Acetazolamide used in or Amiloride?

I'll look at the other link tomorrow.

For the purposes of doping, they would both fall into the category of diuretics. While they both have diuretic properties, their primary mechanisms are something else--and in both cases they'd present some problems for an endurance athlete (particularly the latter of those 2, IMO).

 

[cyclopeon]

So going back to this allergy issue, I don't doubt a lot of riders have problems with hay fever. It's starting to come on strong for me and will hamper me until early July.

The thing is, it's very unusual to get it as early as AC did this year. The pollen count was very low indeed at the time he appeared with Armstrong. Just seemed a strange thing. Surely it would be much worse now when the peak season is beginning for hay fever folks?

There are a lot of different airborne pollens, and all affect different people differently or not at all. From what is written (not here, press statements etc), I would guess his problem is an early season perennial grass although it might also be some tree.

The thing is, pollen allergy season depends on the location and the allergen. It will be early in warm climates, later in cold climates: the same species of plant needs a certain number of degree-days to come into flower no matter where on earth it grows. Corsica, being surrounded by the Mediterranean, will have been ahead of most of Europe by a significant amount. There is also a short-term weather effect: dry windy days will enable the pollen to lift off and spread, while rain will wash most of the pollens out of the air. Pollen is a living thing with a limited life once it leaves the plant, too, so it doesn't hang around in ditches waiting for a dry day to whip it up again, because by then it is just a dust particle.

Tabulated pollen counts concentrate on several high-profile species which may or may not represent what goes on in the countryside; often the pollen counts key on cities because that is where the population concentrations are, but outside of the cities there are often different species making up the plant concentrations, or many more of the same ones resulting in a much higher pollen count. So it's all rather complex once you look below the surface of the topic.
Hopefully answered more questions than I created here?