Did EPO use really kill some riders?

[ScienceIsCool]

Re:

Lemond is widely quoted on the internet as somebody who won the TdF with one kidney. I'm surprised you're putting that in my mouth when in fact it's all over the web.
We've gone through the kidney issues multiple times.
Let's not go there again, unless you can finally tell me what he was and wasn't suffering from, with links preferably.

The other thing is: in the Lemond thread as well as from Lemond himself, I've hear the following argument multiple times: "if the Giro injections were EPO, why would I mention them myself straight after the race?"
Now where is that interview where he mentions the injections himself straight after the Giro.

If that Washington Post article from July 89 is indeed the first mention of the injection, as you say, then the above argument is apparently a load of bollox.

It's very possible that Greg talked about the iron injections before July and possibly even did so in interviews. However, that's the first citation I can find in English. Not going to try and find anything in French or Italian. No need. The point was to establish the facts, which you did not know and was causing you some consternation.

I have yet to find any citations (you know, not forums, blogs and the like) that say Greg Lemond has one kidney. I have many citations for having pellets removed from both kidneys after the hunting accident (hard to do if they're missing...) and that he suffered from chronic kidney infections as a child.

pellets removed from kidneys:
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Greg-LeMond
and http://articles.latimes.com/1990-12-04/sports/sp-5740_1_greg-lemond

chronic kidney infections:
https://www.facebook.com/2Rmag/posts/534227359949423 (an interview with 2R magazine)
quote:"Greg: I was needle-averse. From the day I was born, I’ve had these chronic kidney infections…

You were needle-averse?
Greg: I had to go to the doctor to get antibiotic shots (for the kidney infection) as a kid. "

I think that if you want to claim that Greg lost a kidney, you should cite a source as to when and how he lost it.

ALL of which has nothing to do with anything. I think at one time you tried to label Lemond as a "kidney patient" and therefore would have been given EPO. But that obviously isn't true in any sense. It's a lot like if I kept bringing up that he needs reading glasses. It's a complete non-sequitur.

John Swanson

 

[sniper]

I never thought he was a kidney patient.
I do think he tried to portray himself as one, you know, just in case.

anemia + several kidney issues.

I mean, who would have blamed him for taking EPO?

 

[Semper Fidelis]

It's clear that something gave our guy the anglo Lemond the edge. I doubt EPO did him in but it might have been a contributing factor. His concoction was inferior to the real deal. But he was a "machine" for the time.

 

[sniper]

Maybe he had a low hematocrit so that he had more benefit from blood doping than others.

In any case, Lemond had the ideal mindset.
He was incredibly hungry and would do whatever it takes to get an edge.
And since EPO was legal, I fail to see why some object so heavily to the idea that Lemond may have used it.

The evidence (as thin as it may be) for EPO use definitely points towards Lemond much more than towards most other riders of his era.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re:

I never thought he was a kidney patient.
I do think he tried to portray himself as one, you know, just in case.

anemia + several kidney issues.

I mean, who would have blamed him for taking EPO?

To quote sniper:
"Considering Lemond's medical profile (kidney + anemia patient, i.e. perfect for EPO)" and

"so back on topic:
kidney.
epo.
1989.
dhaenens.
adr."

So yes, you tried to suggest that Greg Lemond was a kidney patient who needed EPO. And since this is fabricated from whole cloth, there's no way Greg can be using it as a cover for EPO use.

John Swanson

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re:

Maybe he had a low hematocrit so that he had more benefit from blood doping than others.

In any case, Lemond had the ideal mindset.
He was incredibly hungry and would do whatever it takes to get an edge.
And since EPO was legal, I fail to see why some object so heavily to the idea that Lemond may have used it.

The evidence (as thin as it may be) for EPO use definitely points towards Lemond much more than towards most other riders of his era.

And not a single fact was quoted that day...

I get it. You think he doped and included EPO in his regimen. Glenn also seems to think so. I'm totally cool with that. But don't pretend that the facts are on your side. There's really nothing out there that backs up your feelings. And that's okay.

John Swanson

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re: Re:

I never thought he was a kidney patient.
I do think he tried to portray himself as one, you know, just in case.

anemia + several kidney issues.

I mean, who would have blamed him for taking EPO?

To quote sniper:
"Considering Lemond's medical profile (kidney + anemia patient, i.e. perfect for EPO)" and

"so back on topic:
kidney.
epo.
1989.
dhaenens.
adr."

So yes, you tried to suggest that Greg Lemond was a kidney patient who needed EPO. And since this is fabricated from whole cloth, there's no way Greg can be using it as a cover for EPO use.

John Swanson

Since it was LEGAL why would he not?

seems legit to ask the question.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re:

So knowing Lemond's medical profile = believing Lemond's medical profile?
I realize that's your logic (take everything from the horse's mouth as fact).
But no, it's not my logic.

Well you're now on a crazy descent into "there is no such thing as truth", which is a fantastic bit of philosophical wankery. But back here in this forum, it might be useful to stick to citable sources and use the common definitions for things so that we can have a meaningful discussion.

John Swanson

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...
Since it was LEGAL why would he not?

seems legit to ask the question.

indeed. Compared to most other riders of his time, he was ideally suited to receive it.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

I never thought he was a kidney patient.
I do think he tried to portray himself as one, you know, just in case.

anemia + several kidney issues.

I mean, who would have blamed him for taking EPO?

To quote sniper:
"Considering Lemond's medical profile (kidney + anemia patient, i.e. perfect for EPO)" and

"so back on topic:
kidney.
epo.
1989.
dhaenens.
adr."

So yes, you tried to suggest that Greg Lemond was a kidney patient who needed EPO. And since this is fabricated from whole cloth, there's no way Greg can be using it as a cover for EPO use.

John Swanson

Since it was LEGAL why would he not?

seems legit to ask the question.

Perfectly legit question. But it has *nothing* to do with his kidneys. Bringing that up over and over again is as useful as saying he wears reading glasses, ergo EPO.

John Swanson

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

So knowing Lemond's medical profile = believing Lemond's medical profile?
I realize that's your logic (take everything from the horse's mouth as fact).
But no, it's not my logic.

Well you're now on a crazy descent into "there is no such thing as truth", which is a fantastic bit of philosophical wankery. But back here in this forum, it might be useful to stick to citable sources and use the common definitions for things so that we can have a meaningful discussion.

John Swanson

Ball not man.

You're still missing the point.
It's clear that by painting himself as anemic with kidney problems he had made the near-perfect alibi for himself, should his EPO use ever come to light.

And inconsistencies are a give away.
Compare Wiggins's kenacort inconsistencies or Froome's badzilla inconsistencies.
It's a give away.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

So knowing Lemond's medical profile = believing Lemond's medical profile?
I realize that's your logic (take everything from the horse's mouth as fact).
But no, it's not my logic.

Well you're now on a crazy descent into "there is no such thing as truth", which is a fantastic bit of philosophical wankery. But back here in this forum, it might be useful to stick to citable sources and use the common definitions for things so that we can have a meaningful discussion.

John Swanson

Ball not man.

You're still missing the point.
It's clear that by painting himself as anemic with kidney problems he had made the near-perfect alibi for himself, should his EPO use ever come to light.

And inconsistencies are a give away.
Compare Wiggins's kenacort inconsistencies or Froome's badzilla inconsistencies.
It's a give away.

And not a fact was quoted that day...

John Swanson

 

[sniper]

My point exactly. No facts, just inconsistencies.
And that's Lemonds problem. Not yours or mine.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re:

My point exactly. No facts, just inconsistencies.
And that's Lemonds problem. Not yours or mine.

Any inconsistencies are solely your own creation. Three sources (I'm sure there are many more) agree on something that happened, at the time of the event. Greg Lemond was diagnosed with anemia after stage 11 of the 1989 Giro d'Italia via blood test. The team doctor (presumably Vanmol) prescribed two iron injections. Greg recovered by the end of the Giro. Erythropoiesis takes 7 days to develop mature blood cells, so this fits.

Now, recounting this anecdote some 25 years later, Greg says it was three shots. And you are using this to imply very heavily that he was "all over the map" regarding this event. Further implying that this is evidence he doped.

If there's anything at all to add to this I think it would be very interesting, but only if you could cite sources. From what I remember, rumors are considered to be trolling in this forum. Non-anonymous quotes from a publication would be the best.

John Swanson

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Did EPO kill his career? I doubt it did. I believe he was not willing to use EPO along with his other concoction of courage through pharmaceutical help.

I guess we will never really know considering Lemond does not tell the same story more than once.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Any inconsistencies are solely your own creation.

- the links you provided (plus Kimmage interview) speak alternately of two and of three injections.
- on the internet Lemond is known as winning the TdF with one kidney. You say that that is false.
- even Kimmage wasn't sure who provided the injection(s) (Kimmage: "I always thought it was Jacome"; Lemond: "It was Vanmol")

So, while I'm not saying all inconsistencies are Lemond's creation, for you to say they "are solely my own creation", that's blatantly false (in addition to not being very nice ).

And whilst they may or may not be his creation, they are his problem.
He had the Kimmage interview to set some things straight, but, to put it mildly, he didn't exactly seize the opportunity.

Interestingly, Lemond's 'transparency campaign' seems to be based on having his lawyer take damaging press releases off the internet. Everything related to the 1999 epo accusations from Castoings is gone, hidden under Google's new privacy laws. Something to hide Greg? Who'd have thunk.

If there's anything at all to add to this I think it would be very interesting, but only if you could cite sources. From what I remember, rumors are considered to be trolling in this forum. Non-anonymous quotes from a publication would be the best.

then maybe it's time to let go of that fantastic rumor that Lemond was winning the TdF three times - whilst recovering from mysterious infections, kidney problems, anemia, and pollen allergies - on paniagua (unlike ca. 95% of all GT winners). Or start providing some evidence to back it up other than horse's mouth statements. You wouldn't want to be seen trolling would you.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re: Re:

Any inconsistencies are solely your own creation.

- the links you provided (plus Kimmage interview) speak alternately of two and of three injections.
- on the internet Lemond is known as winning the TdF with one kidney. You say that that is false.
- even Kimmage wasn't sure who provided the injection(s) (Kimmage: "I always thought it was Jacome"; Lemond: "It was Vanmol")

So, while I'm not saying all inconsistencies are Lemond's creation, for you to say they "are solely my own creation", that's blatantly false (in addition to not being very nice ).

And whilst they may or may not be his creation, they are his problem.
He had the Kimmage interview to set some things straight, but, to put it mildly, he didn't exactly seize the opportunity.

Interestingly, Lemond's 'transparency campaign' seems to be based on having his lawyer take damaging press releases off the internet. Everything related to the 1999 epo accusations from Castoings is gone, hidden under Google's new privacy laws. Something to hide Greg? Who'd have thunk.

If there's anything at all to add to this I think it would be very interesting, but only if you could cite sources. From what I remember, rumors are considered to be trolling in this forum. Non-anonymous quotes from a publication would be the best.

then maybe it's time to let go of that fantastic rumor that Lemond was winning the TdF three times - whilst recovering from mysterious infections, kidney problems, anemia, and pollen allergies - on paniagua (unlike ca. 95% of all GT winners). Or start providing some evidence to back it up other than horse's mouth statements. You wouldn't want to be seen trolling would you.

Even the amount of injection story has changed. I'm not sure I believe anything he would say except ....when I ask hey you recording this phone conversation and he answers with a NO. I would know without a doubt he was recording it.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

Any inconsistencies are solely your own creation.

- the links you provided (plus Kimmage interview) speak alternately of two and of three injections.
- on the internet Lemond is known as winning the TdF with one kidney. You say that that is false.
- even Kimmage wasn't sure who provided the injection(s) (Kimmage: "I always thought it was Jacome"; Lemond: "It was Vanmol")

So, while I'm not saying all inconsistencies are Lemond's creation, for you to say they "are solely my own creation", that's blatantly false (in addition to not being very nice ).

And whilst they may or may not be his creation, they are his problem.
He had the Kimmage interview to set some things straight, but, to put it mildly, he didn't exactly seize the opportunity.

Interestingly, Lemond's 'transparency campaign' seems to be based on having his lawyer take damaging press releases off the internet. Everything related to the 1999 epo accusations from Castoings is gone, hidden under Google's new privacy laws. Something to hide Greg? Who'd have thunk.

If there's anything at all to add to this I think it would be very interesting, but only if you could cite sources. From what I remember, rumors are considered to be trolling in this forum. Non-anonymous quotes from a publication would be the best.

then maybe it's time to let go of that fantastic rumor that Lemond was winning the TdF three times - whilst recovering from mysterious infections, kidney problems, anemia, and pollen allergies - on paniagua (unlike ca. 95% of all GT winners). Or start providing some evidence to back it up other than horse's mouth statements. You wouldn't want to be seen trolling would you.

This is straight up trolling.

When did Greg lose a kidney? Why did he lose it? Can you cite a source that I won't report for trolling?

Nearly 30 years after the event Greg recounts said event in an interview. A single detail (three versus two injections) doesn't match records of the event from that time.

You've just created a story about Greg using his lawyers and Google's privacy laws to remove a story that you can't find any more. Do you have *any* evidence that happened?

And from that you accuse Greg of doping and me trolling. I'm inclined to report to mods the next time you do this.

John Swanson

 

[gillan1969]

"If you torture the data enough, it will confess"

this seems to be modus operandi around here

 

[Irondan]

The next person that hurls out a trolling accusation will face a ban from the forum of up to a week.

Please post in a respectful, courteous, impersonal manner.

Cheers

 

[GJB123]

Re:

I never thought he was a kidney patient.
I do think he tried to portray himself as one, you know, just in case.

anemia + several kidney issues.

I mean, who would have blamed him for taking EPO?

That is a blatant falsehood. You very well did and you know you did. Please don't make me go through pages and pages of your drivel to find the correct quotes.

We had numerous discussions on this issue in which you failed to understand the difference between chronic kidney infections (which are generally urinary tract infections) and actual chronic kidney disease that tends to end in the need for kidney dialysis.

 

[GJB123]

Re: Re:

So knowing Lemond's medical profile = believing Lemond's medical profile?
I realize that's your logic (take everything from the horse's mouth as fact).
But no, it's not my logic.

Well you're now on a crazy descent into "there is no such thing as truth", which is a fantastic bit of philosophical wankery. But back here in this forum, it might be useful to stick to citable sources and use the common definitions for things so that we can have a meaningful discussion.

John Swanson

Ball not man.

You're still missing the point.
It's clear that by painting himself as anemic with kidney problems he had made the near-perfect alibi for himself, should his EPO use ever come to light.

And inconsistencies are a give away.
Compare Wiggins's kenacort inconsistencies or Froome's badzilla inconsistencies.
It's a give away.

There was no need for a narrative since EPO wasn't on the banned substance list. On the one hand you claim that LeMond (get the spelling his name right for once) he used very legs mensal at his disposal to get an edge and would have used EPO because it was still real at that time and yet you think he needs to have a narrative to explain the use of something perfectly legal. Your arguments are all over the place.

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re: Re:

I never thought he was a kidney patient.
I do think he tried to portray himself as one, you know, just in case.

anemia + several kidney issues.

I mean, who would have blamed him for taking EPO?

That is a blatant falsehood. You very well did and you know you did. Please don't make me go through pages and pages of your drivel to find the correct quotes.

We had numerous discussions on this issue in which you failed to understand the difference between chronic kidney infections (which are generally urinary tract infections) and actual chronic kidney disease that tends to end in the need for kidney dialysis.

Uh-huh. I had a feeling that revisionist history would eventually take place on this argument.

Here is the relevant background.
viewtopic.php?p=1906902#p1906902

And the proof.
viewtopic.php?p=1871515#p1871515

(b) Lemond - the first cycling millionaire and long-term kidney patient starting from childhood - would have had plenty of high-end medical care, starting in his days as a talented junior.

 

[GJB123]

Game, set and match on the point of the kidney-issue. Thank djpbaltimore for finding the time and the patience to clearly provide evidence of the falsehood.

 

[sniper]

More like game set and match on your capacity to read.
If I describe Wiggins as an asthmatic, or Froome as a badzilla patient, does that mean I *believe* wiggins is asthmatic and froome really had bilharzia?
Lol.
And what a weird attempt to try and catch me out on some lie about what I do or do not believe. As if that has bearing on anything we've been discussing here?
I know you like to play man more than you play ball, but you could at least pretend to have something of substance to say on the issue.