Did EPO use really kill some riders?

[fmk_RoI]

This more or less confirms that Janssen was an advocate of "Hormonal Equilibrium" which was I think first promoted by French doctor Bellocq.

François Bellocq was an advocate of it, yes, and perhaps its most famous champion. But by the logic you use to make your deduction about Janssen then anyone who was prescribing testosterone or cortisone or any of the hormones that became popular after the 1960s, well they too were advocates of hormone rebalancing.

the riders obviously didn't view it as doping even though they were clearly gaining an advantage over their rivals, you would imagine even more so in a 3 week Tour.

Over which rivals? Bellocq, after being fired by Peugeot, hung a shingle on his door and had many riders from different teams beating a path to him (the names are well known and include riders who are alleged to have been clean). And he was just one among several offering the same treatment. That riders didn't think they were doping? There were no tests for this stuff, and historically that was the key definition of doping, not reference to the banned list (today I think we're now using good science versus bad science as the definition). Once the test came in riders (and journalists and fans) redefined doping as cheating and noted it wasn't that as everyone else was doing it and you can't be gaining an advantage in that world.

The Kimmage articles also give the impression that the soigneurs had a slightly different mindest than Janssen and were probably more interested in pushing PEDs.

Over-reading what's been written. When people like Bellocq (who was actually later than the doctors in Italian teams) began to come on the scene old school soigneurs began to lose their edge, their hand-me-down knowledge wasn't keeping up with the latest advances in medicine. That the swannies had a different mindset to the docs - they had different approaches to the job. A wild generalistion such as "the swannies were prolly more interested in pushing PEDs" is absurd (especially when what the doctors were pushing was also PEDs, some legal, some barely legal, some fully illegal).

 

[Race Radio]

More good work by Paul. Very interesting look at the PDM team, one of the more advanced doping teams of the time.

I am a bit puzzled by this.

What killed Johannes Draaijer? There's no mystery. It's called Sudden Arrhythmic Death Syndrome, a genetic heart condition that can cause death in young and healthy people. That's how Johannes died. He was sleeping. He suffered a heart attack. There's no mystery

While some have know Draaijer had a heart issue most did not. For the last 25 years his name has been synonymous with death by EPO. He has been held up THE example of the dangers of doping by many in the sport, including Pat McQuaid......when he likely died of natural causes.

These types of deaths in sport are surprisingly common. I have a close friend and former teammate who died in a similar manner. He had already had to stop competing but ultimately died of a heart attack at 20.

 

[Futuroscope]

According to several sources, EPO began to circulate in Europe in 1987,48 when 3 of the victims recorded in Table 1 had already been retired for a long time. This reduces the number of potentially suspicious deaths to 14. The case of Bert Oosterbosch, who had retired in late 1988, the year before his death, should also be withdrawn from the list: if he had taken the drug during his professional career, its alleged deleterious effects would have faded long before his death.49 The list has now been reduced to 13. Four other victims died between October and February in the cycling off-season, when there was no point in charging up with such an expensive, cutting-edge drug.50 Of the remaining 9, 7 were amateur riders, who for the reasons just stated would be very unlikely consumers of the drug.51 This leaves the list with just 2 potentially suspicious riders: 1 low-profile young professional (only 23 when he died) and a cyclo-cross rider, neither of them the kind of usual suspect52 for such a hi-tech practice as EPO doping would have been at the time. These data therefore show little, if any, trace of the ‘about twenty world-class Dutch and Belgian cyclists’ killed by ‘rhEPO-induced erythrocytosis’.53 Of course, all this is not watertight scholarship, but at least it is based on some kind of empirical evidence and rational analysis. Perhaps the scientific literature can provide us with stronger counter-evidence concerning the claimed link between these deaths and EPO doping.

This is utter garbage.

 

[fmk_RoI]

I am a bit puzzled by this.

I think all judgement/opinion/questions need to be held in check until the series of articles is completed.

 

[Race Radio]

I think all judgement/opinion/questions need to be held in check until the series of articles is completed.

Good point. Still one more to come.

 

[Benotti69]

Over-reading what's been written. When people like Bellocq (who was actually later than the doctors in Italian teams) began to come on the scene old school soigneurs began to lose their edge, their hand-me-down knowledge wasn't keeping up with the latest advances in medicine. That the swannies had a different mindset to the docs - they had different approaches to the job. A wild generalistion such as "the swannies were prolly more interested in pushing PEDs" is absurd (especially when what the doctors were pushing was also PEDs, some legal, some barely legal, some fully illegal).

Is it possible the swannies were also a source for PEDs and were making money sourcing them, where as team Docs were able to prescribe a lot of dope.....

 

[fmk_RoI]

Is it possible the swannies were also a source for PEDs and were making money sourcing them, where as team Docs were able to prescribe a lot of dope.....

It's as possible to be as crazy as you want it to be. Doesn't mean that was reality though.

 

[Futuroscope]

Is it possible the swannies were also a source for PEDs and were making money sourcing them, where as team Docs were able to prescribe a lot of dope.....

Yes, I can imagine that happening in some cases. Dealers vs dealers.

 

[Benotti69]

It's as possible to be as crazy as you want it to be. Doesn't mean that was reality though.

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/8...nks-with-soigneur-implicated-in-EPO-case.aspx

BMC soigneur was caught with nearly 200 doses, 3 years ago points to a reality.

 

[fmk_RoI]

BMC soigneur was caught with nearly 200 doses, 3 years ago points to a reality.

Let me remind you what you said and highlight the real problem with it (whereas the bit in italics is just plain confusing)

Is it possible the swannies were also a source for PEDs and were making money sourcing them, where as team Docs were able to prescribe a lot of dope.....

Find an irrelevant link for that...

 

[Benotti69]

Let me remind you what you said and highlight the real problem with it (whereas the bit in italics is just plain confusing)

Find an irrelevant link for that...

I did preface it with 'is it POSSIBLE'........

Dope dealing tends to be like that. Swannies dealing drugs are no different from other non sporting drug dealers. They take a risk in procuring a banned substance on behalf of a client and want some compensation for that risk.

I dont have a link. They dont tend to advertise their work practices.......

 

[sugarman]

More good work by Paul. Very interesting look at the PDM team, one of the more advanced doping teams of the time.

I am a bit puzzled by this.



While some have know Draaijer had a heart issue most did not. For the last 25 years his name has been synonymous with death by EPO. He has been held up THE example of the dangers of doping by many in the sport, including Pat McQuaid......when he likely died of natural causes.

These types of deaths in sport are surprisingly common. I have a close friend and former teammate who died in a similar manner. He had already had to stop competing but ultimately died of a heart attack at 20.

Its not necessary for his death to have been caused by one or the other, it could have been a combination of both. That is, his heart condition predisposed him to a higher risk of EPO side effects.

By the way, I'm not suggesting I have any intimate information at all about Draaijer, his health, Epo use, or death - just highlighting a possibility.

 

[fmk_RoI]

I did preface it with 'is it POSSIBLE'........

And I told you it was possible to be as crazy as you want to be, to which you replied with an irrelevant link.

I dont have a link.

Colour me surprised.

 

[fmk_RoI]

What incentive did the UCI have, then, to establish a 50% hematocrit rule if it did not feel EPO was behind the death of those cyclists in the late 80's early 90's?

The deaths had nothing to do with the introduction of the H-test, the deaths were subjected to a different response, a long-term study that was forgotten about by the time it got to report.

The H-test wasn't actually a UCI initiative, the UCI actually opposed blood tests, but other stakeholders forced their hand. One of the most important forces was the judicial authorities in Italy, who began poking their nose where it wasn't wanted. A summary of the key events leading up to the introduction of the H-test can be found here http://www.podiumcafe.com/2011/2/16...on-the-causes-of-doping-francesco-conconi-and

 

[Benotti69]

And I told you it was possible to be as crazy as you want to be, to which you replied with an irrelevant link.



Colour me surprised.

What colour do you prefer Fearg?

 

[Granville57]

The deaths had nothing to do with the introduction of the H-test, the deaths were subjected to a different response, a long-term study that was forgotten about by the time it got to report.

Could you explain the bolded part a bit more. I'm not quite following. Thanks.


Anyway, this is titled as "Part 3" but is it not actually Part 4?
She knows - This is what death sounds like
http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/cycling/paul-kimmage-she-knows-this-is-what-death-sounds-like-30531503.html

The sadness and sorrow still present in Annalisa's eyes is quite telling.
[Edit: I hadn't realized that the video clip was included in the previous installments until just now.]


FWIW, I have found this thread (based on the OP) to be one of the more interesting and enlightening in all of Clinic history.

Many questions still to be asked...and answered.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Could you explain the bolded part a bit more. I'm not quite following. Thanks.

The UCI responded to the reports of deaths by conducting a long term study which reported - IIRC - some time around the new millennium.

 

[zigmeister]

Yes, everybody that takes EPO will die...eventually.

 

[pmcg76]

Has anyone read the final instalment of Kimmages articles on the Draaijer case? Would be great to see what the concluding piece offered up.

 

[Benotti69]

Has anyone read the final instalment of Kimmages articles on the Draaijer case? Would be great to see what the concluding piece offered up.

Johannes Draaijer: The Complete Series
http://www.independent.ie/sport/oth...hos-afraid-of-johannes-draaijer-30479202.html …
http://www.independent.ie/sport/oth...ed-stone-for-an-unfinished-love-30496438.html …
http://www.independent.ie/sport/oth...with-truth-on-the-road-to-paris-30513725.html …
http://www.independent.ie/sport/oth...-this-is-what-death-sounds-like-30531503.html …


Annalise doesn't think Johannes died from EPO, if i watched the video and understood her right. But I did think that maybe she cannot admit it without it causing massive legal problems for her in relation to his will and other related matters to his death.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Would be great to see what the concluding piece offered up.

It loops you back to the opening piece. There are no answers to why he died, and yet so many are afraid to discuss his death.

For me, at this stage, what is most interesting about all those deaths in the 1990s isn't so much what caused them, but how people reacted to them. Looking at it now, you can see they knew something had changed and they were scared by that change and the deaths fed that fear perfectly. Look at the way the Knud Enemark Jensen death was used to drive anti-doping in the 1960s, even if it can be argued that Jensen's death was not doping related. Look at the way, in the 1990s, the Linton death was mis-attributed to doping. Yes, these deaths are being used to drive the anti-doping argument, a myth is being created. But at the heart of all the best myths is some degree of truth, and the question is what is the real truth at the heart of that cluster of 1990s deaths attributed to EPO. Is it to do with the way the pharmaceutical companies are said to have introduced EPO into sports? Is it that certain teams were more willing to push the envelope than others? Or is it simply the fear that festers in a sport in which everyone is looking at what everyone else is using to get an advantage?

 

[Granville57]

It loops you back to the opening piece. There are no answers to why he died, and yet so many are afraid to discuss his death.

But why, after all these years, are some of these people still afraid to discuss it?

That's what is most bewildering to me.

What, or who, are they afraid of?

 

[Parker]

But why, after all these years, are some of these people still afraid to discuss it?

That's what is most bewildering to me.

What, or who, are they afraid of?

They're not afraid. They just don't want to discuss it. It's not unusual for people not to want to talk about painful times in their past. They're not obliged to talk to journalists no matter what sense of entitlement those journalists have. And they'll be doubly reluctant to talk someone like Kimmage, someone with a known agenda.

 

[Granville57]

They're not afraid.

You're certain of this?

And they'll be doubly reluctant to talk someone like Kimmage, someone with a known agenda.

What do you suppose is Kimmage's agenda regarding the case of Johannes Draaijer?

 

[Parker]

You're certain of this?

No. Are you certain that they are afraid? That people want to forget a bad episode that happened over twenty years ago doesn't seem unusual to me. Who exactly are they afraid of?

What do you suppose is Kimmage's agenda regarding the case of Johannes Draaijer?

To make it a tale about doping, rightly or wrongly, and thereby smearing, rightly or wrongly, those who he expects to talk to him. When it comes to cycling, Kimmage only writes about doping. Maybe a journalist less fond of a polemic would be received more favourably.