Disc brakes on road bikes...

[jmdirt]

Re: Re:

Touching a front disk brake in the rain on a descent is just going to throw you off the bike.

By your account I should be hitting the deck regularly, it rains a lot here. But I digress, sounds like you're speaking from years of experience with disc brakes in the wet.

Disc brakes have been on 2 wheels for a long time.

Yes. I've been using them for 14 years on the road (Cannondale Cyclo-cross disc was my first road oriented disc bike). In that time I've never lost the front wheel in the wet or even come close. I now have even more powerful hydros on a pure road machine and actually I am far less likely to lose control than on rim brakes because hydro discs are so predictable. Rim brakes snatch in the wet because it takes a few revolutions for the pads to wipe off the water, which acts as a lubricant. You pull on them and nothing happens for a second or two, then all of a sudden the braking kicks in.

I'm sure you are a great guy, and know a lot of things about other aspects of cycling but as with all things in life it is always better to speak from an informed position.

....yeah you are so absolutely right and here is a comment from my informed position....I've been driving a car with disc brakes for over 25 years and this funny thing happens when it rains, the road gets much more slippier and even small gradient changes and surface imperfections become an issue and in winter when roads are often covered in snow or ice the situation is much more most worser and frankly it doesn't matter how much more superior a brake system may be theoretically it is the operator who is the prime variable in deciding how successful a stop will be....

...bottom line, some brake systems make have certain theoretical advantages in certain advantages but as was pointed out up thread engineering is about applying a solution that balances advantages....so yeah in a mtn bike situation where tire grip is relatively huge more braking power is a good thing but on the road where your limiting factor is tire road interface , not so much if at all...

...now about the only thing that disc brakes have a marked advantage in is with poseurs who really really need bling carbon wheels but can't be bothered to learn how to properly mount tubular tires..... and oh its really good for the bike industry which , if disc brakes become ubiquitous, can sell more bling carbon wheels to said poseurs ( who after all make up the majority of the market )...

Cheers

Disc brakes are better than drum brakes on autos/motos.
Its not about absolute power.
Hydraulic disc brakes are better (even with tubulars).
Everything about the bike industry (every industry) is about marketing and making money,
Surly has you covered: http://surlybikes.com/bikes/cross_check_ss

 

[kwikki]

Re: Re:

Touching a front disk brake in the rain on a descent is just going to throw you off the bike.

By your account I should be hitting the deck regularly, it rains a lot here. But I digress, sounds like you're speaking from years of experience with disc brakes in the wet.

Disc brakes have been on 2 wheels for a long time.

Yes. I've been using them for 14 years on the road (Cannondale Cyclo-cross disc was my first road oriented disc bike). In that time I've never lost the front wheel in the wet or even come close. I now have even more powerful hydros on a pure road machine and actually I am far less likely to lose control than on rim brakes because hydro discs are so predictable. Rim brakes snatch in the wet because it takes a few revolutions for the pads to wipe off the water, which acts as a lubricant. You pull on them and nothing happens for a second or two, then all of a sudden the braking kicks in.

I'm sure you are a great guy, and know a lot of things about other aspects of cycling but as with all things in life it is always better to speak from an informed position.

....yeah you are so absolutely right and here is a comment from my informed position....I've been driving a car with disc brakes for over 25 years and this funny thing happens when it rains, the road gets much more slippier and even small gradient changes and surface imperfections become an issue and in winter when roads are often covered in snow or ice the situation is much more most worser and frankly it doesn't matter how much more superior a brake system may be theoretically it is the operator who is the prime variable in deciding how successful a stop will be....

...bottom line, some brake systems make have certain theoretical advantages in certain advantages but as was pointed out up thread engineering is about applying a solution that balances advantages....so yeah in a mtn bike situation where tire grip is relatively huge more braking power is a good thing but on the road where your limiting factor is tire road interface , not so much if at all...

...now about the only thing that disc brakes have a marked advantage in is with poseurs who really really need bling carbon wheels but can't be bothered to learn how to properly mount tubular tires..... and oh its really good for the bike industry which , if disc brakes become ubiquitous, can sell more bling carbon wheels to said poseurs ( who after all make up the majority of the market )...

Cheers

So you are younger than me and with less driving experience. Glad we sorted that one out.

Disc brakes are superior to rim brakes in every aspect, except weight and price, for all the reasons outlined in my post. One advantage I didn't mention is the lack of rim wear, so, yes carbon wheels become an interesting prospect for those interested in their benefits. I'm pretty sure rim design will change for the better, although with the gradual move towards tubeless this will take some time.

I don't agree with your view on kit choice. It's up to other people to decide how they want to spent their money, and if people want to spend it on pro level kit that is up to them. If you find that you are aggravated by other peoples choices of what they do in their lives with their money Id suggest the problem lies with you rather than them. Law of diminishing returns comes in to play, as it does with anything but for the enthusiast that is just to be accepted.

I'm not really sure what point your are trying to make with your remark about tubular tyres. Most enthusiasts ride clinchers because they are practical. Riding tubular is pretty pointless outside of time-trialling for most people. I haven't used them since the 1980s and I don't miss the absolute pain of glueing them, or having to send them away to be mended if punctured. Nor do I miss having to carry an entire tyre in case of puncture, and the thought of an expensive taxi ride if I punctured twice.

In fact these days I don't have to worry about puncturing at all as I ride tubeless. You should try it, they are great. Maybe try discs too, on a bike rather than a car.

 

[Stingray34]

I was the Gripshift Whisperer.

 

[Benotti69]

discs brakes work so well on Motorbikes that the manufacturers introduced abs, which is a pulse system of breaking to stop so many pulling tight and locking up the bike and going down, ie crashing.

In wet conditions on a road bike descending at 60km/h plus down a col and locking a disc is going to end with the rider separating from the bike. Riders would be better off improving their bike handling skills rather than relying on technology.

 

[kwikki]

You really should go and try some out before spouting off about it.

I'm pretty sure that unless you are a total clutz you wouldn't just whack the brakes on full. Who would? But you pretty soon realise that the predictability of hydro discs is far superior to rim brakes and the application of braking much smoother and progressive, which is why they are much safer in the wet.

But yeah, if you are a clutz then you'd probably fall off, rim or disc.

 

[jmdirt]

Re:

discs brakes work so well on Motorbikes that the manufacturers introduced abs, which is a pulse system of breaking to stop so many pulling tight and locking up the bike and going down, ie crashing.

In wet conditions on a road bike descending at 60km/h plus down a col and locking a disc is going to end with the rider separating from the bike. Riders would be better off improving their bike handling skills rather than relying on technology.

Moto ABS helps poor riders, and riders in panic situations. I still ride no ABS.
Your second paragraph: if riders have better handling skills, including a good feel for their brakes, disc brakes are better.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

discs brakes work so well on Motorbikes that the manufacturers introduced abs, which is a pulse system of breaking to stop so many pulling tight and locking up the bike and going down, ie crashing.

In wet conditions on a road bike descending at 60km/h plus down a col and locking a disc is going to end with the rider separating from the bike. Riders would be better off improving their bike handling skills rather than relying on technology.

Moto ABS helps poor riders, and riders in panic situations. I still ride no ABS.
Your second paragraph: if riders have better handling skills, including a good feel for their brakes, disc brakes are better.

A good rider will have the ability to ride well on anything half decent. The problem is with racing are not the riders who have great handling skills the problem are those who dont and they are the ones grabbing lots of disc brake and cause problems.

 

[kwikki]

We aren't talking about racing. Racing has no bearing on real world riding whatsoever....closed roads, all traffic flowing one way, good road surfaces etc etc. The only time anybody does an emergency stop in a race is if there's a crash in front.

Real world riding is entirely different.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

We aren't talking about racing. Racing has no bearing on real world riding whatsoever....closed roads, all traffic flowing one way, good road surfaces etc etc. The only time anybody does an emergency stop in a race is if there's a crash in front.

Real world riding is entirely different.

If the peloton embraces discs, it will mean the real world follows......it actually has a big bearing on what real world riding will be offered.

 

[kwikki]

I look forward to this. It'll be great if everytime I set out for the commute to work I find that the roads have been closed, I've got a motorcycle escort and support car, a directeur sportif shouting encouragement to me from a team car, and the roads lined with my fans.

My commute starts with a fast downhill with a main road T-junction at the bottom. I'll just have to make sure I don't brake at the bottom if it's raining because:

Touching a front disk brake in the rain on a descent is just going to throw you off the bike.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Re: Re:

We aren't talking about racing. Racing has no bearing on real world riding whatsoever....closed roads, all traffic flowing one way, good road surfaces etc etc. The only time anybody does an emergency stop in a race is if there's a crash in front.

Real world riding is entirely different.

If the peloton embraces discs, it will mean the real world follows......it actually has a big bearing on what real world riding will be offered.

Really. The entire peloton in the Giro right now except for a few outliers, like Nibs, have electronic shifting..out in the wild, how much of that do you really see?

The product guys will 'embrace' discs. Along with marketeers. Along with manufacturers(spam..who base their future success on discs and crap like 1by), Mechanics won't(internal hydro lines-yippee!!)..racers either don't care or don't want them..a few, who see the $, but most give a grand, eh? so what?.

BUT lots of behind the scenes stuff going on right now at the UCI..scam I'm sure is making their ca$e now.

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

We aren't talking about racing. Racing has no bearing on real world riding whatsoever....closed roads, all traffic flowing one way, good road surfaces etc etc. The only time anybody does an emergency stop in a race is if there's a crash in front.

Real world riding is entirely different.

If the peloton embraces discs, it will mean the real world follows......it actually has a big bearing on what real world riding will be offered.

Really. The entire peloton in the Giro right now except for a few outliers, like Nibs, have electronic shifting..out in the wild, how much of that do you really see?

The product guys will 'embrace' discs. Along with marketeers. Along with manufacturers(spam..who base their future success on discs and crap like 1by), Mechanics won't(internal hydro lines-yippee!!)..racers either don't care or don't want them..a few, who see the $, but most give a grand, eh? so what?.

BUT lots of behind the scenes stuff going on right now at the UCI..scam I'm sure is making their ca$e now.

....glad you reconsidered...

Cheers

 

[42x16ss]

Re:

We aren't talking about racing. Racing has no bearing on real world riding whatsoever....closed roads, all traffic flowing one way, good road surfaces etc etc. The only time anybody does an emergency stop in a race is if there's a crash in front.

Real world riding is entirely different.

What the pros use has a huge bearing on what people buy. Maybe not everyone but I can guarantee that if pros started riding balance bikes or penny farthings there would be many looking to switch immediately

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

We aren't talking about racing. Racing has no bearing on real world riding whatsoever....closed roads, all traffic flowing one way, good road surfaces etc etc. The only time anybody does an emergency stop in a race is if there's a crash in front.

Real world riding is entirely different.

If the peloton embraces discs, it will mean the real world follows......it actually has a big bearing on what real world riding will be offered.

Really. The entire peloton in the Giro right now except for a few outliers, like Nibs, have electronic shifting..out in the wild, how much of that do you really see?

The product guys will 'embrace' discs. Along with marketeers. Along with manufacturers(spam..who base their future success on discs and crap like 1by), Mechanics won't(internal hydro lines-yippee!!)..racers either don't care or don't want them..a few, who see the $, but most give a grand, eh? so what?.

BUT lots of behind the scenes stuff going on right now at the UCI..scam I'm sure is making their ca$e now.

Starting to see more and more electronic groupsets here, as people upgrade to their next bikes. When you have a choice between mechanical Dura Ace/Red/Chorus or electronic Ultegra for roughly the same price, what are most people going to go for knowing that about 90% of pros use electronic?

I went for Chorus on my latest bike, but I'm very much the minority from what I'm seeing.

 

[kwikki]

Re: Re:

We aren't talking about racing. Racing has no bearing on real world riding whatsoever....closed roads, all traffic flowing one way, good road surfaces etc etc. The only time anybody does an emergency stop in a race is if there's a crash in front.

Real world riding is entirely different.

What the pros use has a huge bearing on what people buy. Maybe not everyone but I can guarantee that if pros started riding balance bikes or penny farthings there would be many looking to switch immediately

Sure, I agree. But what people buy is not what is being discussed here. I'm pointing out that pro equipment choice has no bearing on real world riding. See bold above.

My latest bike has hydro discs and di2. And guess what.....I bought it specifically for those two aspects, and entirely for their use in winter conditions (uk). It's really in winter that di2 and discs are useful. Frankly I don't really see the point of either in a summer bike, but in crap weather they are both brilliant.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Re: Re:

We aren't talking about racing. Racing has no bearing on real world riding whatsoever....closed roads, all traffic flowing one way, good road surfaces etc etc. The only time anybody does an emergency stop in a race is if there's a crash in front.

Real world riding is entirely different.

If the peloton embraces discs, it will mean the real world follows......it actually has a big bearing on what real world riding will be offered.

Really. The entire peloton in the Giro right now except for a few outliers, like Nibs, have electronic shifting..out in the wild, how much of that do you really see?

The product guys will 'embrace' discs. Along with marketeers. Along with manufacturers(spam..who base their future success on discs and crap like 1by), Mechanics won't(internal hydro lines-yippee!!)..racers either don't care or don't want them..a few, who see the $, but most give a grand, eh? so what?.

BUT lots of behind the scenes stuff going on right now at the UCI..scam I'm sure is making their ca$e now.

....glad you reconsidered...

Cheers

I'll stick to bike stuff, thanks. No more tilting with 'some' over on the cafe about political crappola. I understand 'bikes', anybody who supports der fuhrer, I really don't get..back to BIKES!!

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

We aren't talking about racing. Racing has no bearing on real world riding whatsoever....closed roads, all traffic flowing one way, good road surfaces etc etc. The only time anybody does an emergency stop in a race is if there's a crash in front.

Real world riding is entirely different.

What the pros use has a huge bearing on what people buy. Maybe not everyone but I can guarantee that if pros started riding balance bikes or penny farthings there would be many looking to switch immediately

Sure, I agree. But what people buy is not what is being discussed here. I'm pointing out that pro equipment choice has no bearing on real world riding. See bold above.

My latest bike has hydro discs and di2. And guess what.....I bought it specifically for those two aspects, and entirely for their use in winter conditions (uk). It's really in winter that di2 and discs are useful. Frankly I don't really see the point of either in a summer bike, but in crap weather they are both brilliant.

I think it has some, but a lot less than people think. I have to say, I wouldn't mind having a Chorus EPS front derailleur and shifter for the winter, as I have osteoarthritis in my left wrist and shifting to the big ring in the cold sucks

 

[blutto]

....to kwikki....given the following ....and your advanced years....

Most "enthusiasts" ride clinchers because they are practical

.

....think I found your dream ride dude.....and thoroughly torture tested by "soccer moms" around the world....

....its practical, has disc brakes, and wait for it, tubeless tires....enjoy....

Cheers

 

[LugHugger]

Re: Re:

We aren't talking about racing. Racing has no bearing on real world riding whatsoever....closed roads, all traffic flowing one way, good road surfaces etc etc. The only time anybody does an emergency stop in a race is if there's a crash in front.

Real world riding is entirely different.

What the pros use has a huge bearing on what people buy. Maybe not everyone but I can guarantee that if pros started riding balance bikes or penny farthings there would be many looking to switch immediately

Sure, I agree. But what people buy is not what is being discussed here. I'm pointing out that pro equipment choice has no bearing on real world riding. See bold above.

My latest bike has hydro discs and di2. And guess what.....I bought it specifically for those two aspects, and entirely for their use in winter conditions (uk). It's really in winter that di2 and discs are useful. Frankly I don't really see the point of either in a summer bike, but in crap weather they are both brilliant.

The only mod needed for winter riding here in the UK is a set of mudguards [fenders]. Mechanical gears and calipers work just fine year round.

 

[kwikki]

I've found that hydro discs and electronic shifting work better.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Re:

I've found that hydro discs and electronic shifting work better.

In the wet, probably with carbon rims, no doubt. BUT more expensive, more complicated( I challenge anybody to set up a wet disc brake group, box to bike, as fast as calipers). BUT I am a big fan of electronic..it works everyday, period. With the exception of spam..which is anything but 'intuitive'..lessee..right lever does harder or easier?..and let's shift front and back at the same time..nope. And I hope the drugstore has those 2032 batteries..dum. wrenches like it, except for the wet disc version..with internal hydro lines...opps, I lost the last banjo fitting...

 

[Wantington Jr.]

What's all the fuss about Froome's new shoes. Everyone assuming Shimano made them when they won't even confirm. It really gets on my nerves when people make assumptions without knowing the facts.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re:

What's all the fuss about Froome's new shoes. Everyone assuming Shimano made them when they won't even confirm. It really gets on my nerves when people make assumptions without knowing the facts.

I'm not sure Froome's shoes were linked to disc brakes but hey- I'm open to new things.

I don't like disc brakes but I can't help but noting that there is a trend to go that way.

 

[Wantington Jr.]

Re: Re:

What's all the fuss about Froome's new shoes. Everyone assuming Shimano made them when they won't even confirm. It really gets on my nerves when people make assumptions without knowing the facts.

I'm not sure Froome's shoes were linked to disc brakes but hey- I'm open to new things.

I don't like disc brakes but I can't help but noting that there is a trend to go that way.

The case for disc brakes leaves me cold. I'm not convinced. For pro cyclists it's a nice to have but not a must have, ask Ventoso.

If it ain't brake, don't fix it. To me it looks like using pros as guinea pigs while the gear makes rake in a profit.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Dedicated to all the retro-grouches out there. Pg.66 of the 1994 Bridgestone catalog:

"The rim will no longer have a braking surface out near the tire; instead we'll have hydraulic or electronic disc or drum brakes. The tires will be tubeless, like modern car tires. Flats will be almost entirely eliminated....."