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Disc brakes on road bikes...

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Re: Re:

berend said:
MWC said:
berend said:
You seem to take criticism of a product and technology quite strongly,
I've been pushing for disc brakes on drop bar bikes for 18 years, the last 11 of which are riding and racing on disc, not to mention thousands of disc road and cross wheel sets built in that time. People have had an awfully long time to figure this stuff out for themselves, Mr. Earl E. Adopter. So you chose to answer for Benotti69 who's convinced that disc brakes and the marketing of such is akin to the expensive sneaker you don't need, or the rebadged car body that costs more because of a different hood ornament. Can you really blame me? :rolleyes:
I've been an early adopter, yes. No more, though :) I've learned my lesson.

To respond to your example: Expensive sneakers were theoretically better for strike impact, and for pronation. Recent (a few years ago) studies have shown that this is not true. Re-modeled car bodies are almost always technically worse than the manufacturer bodies (spoilers that don't provide downforce, mess with aerodynamics, etc.)

If disc brakes are better, there should be data. There are enough manufacturers pushing for it, there's enough money behind it that there should be data. Discs have been on bicycle wheels for long enough (more than a decade) to test them. For me: no data, no sale.

For me, the argument "they are obviously better" simply isn't good enough. Not anymore. It rings exactly the same as "look, shiny!" -- ie. marketing.

I've bought stuff because of "shiny." I'm vain. I've got lots of "shiny". In this case, unfortunately, there are drawbacks like overheating, and wheel exchanges, and recalled levers, etc. I race my bicycle. It must be safe.

That doesn't stop you from buying them. Or selling them. It only stops me.
Good post but put on your helmet and flak jacket. :D
 
Re: Re:

berend said:
MWC said:
berend said:
You seem to take criticism of a product and technology quite strongly,
I've been pushing for disc brakes on drop bar bikes for 18 years, the last 11 of which are riding and racing on disc, not to mention thousands of disc road and cross wheel sets built in that time. People have had an awfully long time to figure this stuff out for themselves, Mr. Earl E. Adopter. So you chose to answer for Benotti69 who's convinced that disc brakes and the marketing of such is akin to the expensive sneaker you don't need, or the rebadged car body that costs more because of a different hood ornament. Can you really blame me? :rolleyes:
I've been an early adopter, yes. No more, though :) I've learned my lesson.

To respond to your example: Expensive sneakers were theoretically better for strike impact, and for pronation. Recent (a few years ago) studies have shown that this is not true. Re-modeled car bodies are almost always technically worse than the manufacturer bodies (spoilers that don't provide downforce, mess with aerodynamics, etc.)
I can’t take credit for this example, that was all Benotti69. All you had to do was read my post. The shoe and car body analogy is completely irrelevant to this conversation, from a technological standpoint or marketing & sales strategy. There is no grey area when it comes to these brakes, disc perform better in all conditions. An indisputable fact.


If disc brakes are better, there should be data. There are enough manufacturers pushing for it, there's enough money behind it that there should be data. Discs have been on bicycle wheels for long enough (more than a decade) to test them. For me: no data, no sale.
Google “disc brakes vs rim brakes” and you get 380,000 results, “disc brake road bike review” produces 905,000 results. One would think there’s enough data out there to hash over, or you actually have to do a proper test ride. It seems you have yet to do either?


For me, the argument "they are obviously better" simply isn't good enough. Not anymore. It rings exactly the same as "look, shiny!" -- ie. marketing.
If something this obvious isn’t good enough I’m genuinely curious by what metrics you use to judge something to be merely acceptable.

I've bought stuff because of "shiny." I'm vain. I've got lots of "shiny". In this case, unfortunately, there are drawbacks like overheating, and wheel exchanges, and recalled levers, etc. I race my bicycle. It must be safe.

That doesn't stop you from buying them. Or selling them. It only stops me.
Never mind that it’s taken wheel manufacturers the better part of two decades to get rim braking on carbon rims somewhat reasonable. Just forget about the last two years of Zipp recalls, two people in the hospital, both with concussions, one with a broken face. One of the biggest recalls per unit in the industry, ever. Front hub failure, rim brake wheels btw. Not long ago the early iterations of Firecrest would just magically burst at the brake track from overheating, something that pretty much every manufacturer suffers from even today with the higher temp resins.

Tubular trouble, a double Beloki. 1999 Superweek in oppressive 100°F midwestern heat, a week long series of criteriums in and around Milwaukee. One race in the last laps few guys hit the deck on a sharp descent entering a hard right hand corner, I hit the brakes and my front tubular rolls off the rim, rear tire blows off the rim almost simultaneously after locking it up in the panic. Somehow I managed to stay upright and skated tripod style 50ft into the barriers. Ruined my favorite pair of Carnac shoes, but kept the rims with perfectly sheered flat spots hanging on the shop wall for a while as a perfect example of why disc brakes are going to take over road racing.

Now with disc, if I can brake more consistently and predictably than a rim brake in all conditions all the time with better control and modulation, and without affecting the rim-tire interface whether it’s tubular, clincher or tubeless,.... who’s "safer” again?
 
Apr 20, 2009
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Re: Re:

Benotti69 said:
VeloFidelis said:
I think that's the definition of a 'Win Win'... more money, and better brakes.
Not sure Sagan wants to slow down. :D
Better brakes mean you get to go faster more of the time... you'll figure it out eventually. Sagan already has.
 
Re: Re:

MWC said:
berend said:
MWC said:
berend said:
You seem to take criticism of a product and technology quite strongly,
I've been pushing for disc brakes on drop bar bikes for 18 years, the last 11 of which are riding and racing on disc, not to mention thousands of disc road and cross wheel sets built in that time. People have had an awfully long time to figure this stuff out for themselves, Mr. Earl E. Adopter. So you chose to answer for Benotti69 who's convinced that disc brakes and the marketing of such is akin to the expensive sneaker you don't need, or the rebadged car body that costs more because of a different hood ornament. Can you really blame me? :rolleyes:
I've been an early adopter, yes. No more, though :) I've learned my lesson.

To respond to your example: Expensive sneakers were theoretically better for strike impact, and for pronation. Recent (a few years ago) studies have shown that this is not true. Re-modeled car bodies are almost always technically worse than the manufacturer bodies (spoilers that don't provide downforce, mess with aerodynamics, etc.)
I can’t take credit for this example, that was all Benotti69. All you had to do was read my post. The shoe and car body analogy is completely irrelevant to this conversation, from a technological standpoint or marketing & sales strategy. There is no grey area when it comes to these brakes, disc perform better in all conditions. An indisputable fact.


If disc brakes are better, there should be data. There are enough manufacturers pushing for it, there's enough money behind it that there should be data. Discs have been on bicycle wheels for long enough (more than a decade) to test them. For me: no data, no sale.
Google “disc brakes vs rim brakes” and you get 380,000 results, “disc brake road bike review” produces 905,000 results. One would think there’s enough data out there to hash over, or you actually have to do a proper test ride. It seems you have yet to do either?


For me, the argument "they are obviously better" simply isn't good enough. Not anymore. It rings exactly the same as "look, shiny!" -- ie. marketing.
If something this obvious isn’t good enough I’m genuinely curious by what metrics you use to judge something to be merely acceptable.

I've bought stuff because of "shiny." I'm vain. I've got lots of "shiny". In this case, unfortunately, there are drawbacks like overheating, and wheel exchanges, and recalled levers, etc. I race my bicycle. It must be safe.

That doesn't stop you from buying them. Or selling them. It only stops me.
Never mind that it’s taken wheel manufacturers the better part of two decades to get rim braking on carbon rims somewhat reasonable. Just forget about the last two years of Zipp recalls, two people in the hospital, both with concussions, one with a broken face. One of the biggest recalls per unit in the industry, ever. Front hub failure, rim brake wheels btw. Not long ago the early iterations of Firecrest would just magically burst at the brake track from overheating, something that pretty much every manufacturer suffers from even today with the higher temp resins.

Tubular trouble, a double Beloki. 1999 Superweek in oppressive 100°F midwestern heat, a week long series of criteriums in and around Milwaukee. One race in the last laps few guys hit the deck on a sharp descent entering a hard right hand corner, I hit the brakes and my front tubular rolls off the rim, rear tire blows off the rim almost simultaneously after locking it up in the panic. Somehow I managed to stay upright and skated tripod style 50ft into the barriers. Ruined my favorite pair of Carnac shoes, but kept the rims with perfectly sheered flat spots hanging on the shop wall for a while as a perfect example of why disc brakes are going to take over road racing.

Now with disc, if I can brake more consistently and predictably than a rim brake in all conditions all the time with better control and modulation, and without affecting the rim-tire interface whether it’s tubular, clincher or tubeless,.... who’s "safer” again?
welcome back, welcome back, welcome back..

sing as if you are on kotter TV.... :lol:
 
Jul 19, 2009
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The lack of grip on road tires, both in wet and dry circumstances, is a much more significant obstacle for manufacturers to overcome than slight improvements on braking capabilities.

Keep in mind, the cycling industry has introduced carbon clincher rims in combination with traditional brakes which is a construction that would never have been approved for safety reasons in other serious industries. The benefits from disc brakes would solve the safety issues here, but lack of honesty from the industry in the carbon clincher + rim brake case is disturbing.
 
Apr 20, 2009
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It is interesting that the same Forum contributors who malign disc brakes as dangerous and unsafe, would salivate over the prospect of riding a Pro Tour team issue carbon wheelset. What a curious contradiction.
 
Jul 19, 2009
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Re:

VeloFidelis said:
It is interesting that the same Forum contributors who malign disc brakes as dangerous and unsafe, would salivate over the prospect of riding a Pro Tour team issue carbon wheelset. What a curious contradiction.
To be fair, the carbon clinchers have much greater safety issues than tubulars which handle the heat much better.

Another interesting fact with many carbon clinchers is that the inside space between the rim walls often is narrower than compared to alu clinchers making a bigger balloon shape on the tire which again results in increased ground friction. If inner rim width is not compensated, you would actually go slower on a carbon clincher rim than an alu rim with same shape, weight and profile.
 
Re:

VeloFidelis said:
It is interesting that the same Forum contributors who malign disc brakes as dangerous and unsafe, would salivate over the prospect of riding a Pro Tour team issue carbon wheelset. What a curious contradiction.
As another contributor here will eagerly and gladly point out, I'm a curmudgeaon and I would not 'salivate' at trying these uberlight 'Pro Team Issue carbon wheelset'..I have serviced and then test rode many 'pro' bikes with $3000++ wheelsets..and a few, like a Time I rode, EPS, Lightweight wheels, seemed to be a real ass hatchet. The wheels were nice, braking worked fine, a little noisy. Same for dome 'groad' bikes, even a new Moots Baxter with carbon wheels. Geez, easy to skid tires. Even the 2.0 on there.
 
Feb 16, 2011
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Re: Re:

MWC said:
Bustedknuckle said:
welcome back, welcome back, welcome back..

sing as if you are on kotter TV.... :lol:
Hey Barbarino! Thanks, man. How's that Scientology thing working out for you? :)

I need to get this on DVD....hey Mister Rerrrrssshhhh!
 
Apr 8, 2012
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Re: Re:

Bustedknuckle said:
forwarded to Irondan.
Oh relax Horshack, this reply didn't have malicious intent. I remember the show very well from when I was a kid and all I did was take a dig at Travolta's religious(?) beliefs with a picture of Barbarino's caption he said in every single episode. Little touchy ain't we. :rolleyes:
 
Apr 8, 2012
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Re: Re:

Bustedknuckle said:
VeloFidelis said:
Didn't fail cuz it was a tubular. Even if a disc brake wheel, failure would have been the same.
Absolutely right. A common occurrence with carbon wheels folding and exploding under pros than most people care to know during that era, 09-10 when that photo was taken was peak insanity. Some serious deliberations went down on the back end between brand managers and the media to mitigate the damage to reputations.
 
Apr 20, 2009
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Once again the conversation returns to selective minutia and subjective assertion. Yes, any wheel can can fail, yet carbon wheel failures are both more common and more spectacular. No, disc brakes would not prevent that type of failure, so you are correct, while completely missing the point. Nobody gives a s#!t what 'pro' bike you worked on, tested and road, or that carbon clinchers and 'alu rim with same shape, weight and profile' - which doesn't exist - will actually go faster... in a wind tunnel... on a Tuesday.

If you aspire to own and use what 'Pros' ride, then you live in a bubble... a shrinking bubble. Plenty of cutting edge technology over that past decade has been left for dead out on the road, as the peloton moves on to the next inspirational design aberration. Advancements in cycling product design and engineering that stand the test of time, and forever change the status quo for the cycling enthusiast are few and far between. Clipless pedals, indexed shifting, shifter/brake levers - all once scoffed at - come to mind. If you lack the foresight to understand that road disc is the next product development on that scale... then you will be late to the party. That's OK... the band will still be playing, and the beer will still be cold, when you finally get there.
 
Jul 19, 2009
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Re:

VeloFidelis said:
or that carbon clinchers and 'alu rim with same shape, weight and profile' - which doesn't exist - will actually go faster... in a wind tunnel...
You just missed the point. The resistance for that particular case does not come from wind resistance but from friction on tire contact area. It doesn't even matter if such a rim exist or not, the physics will tell you that this result is the case.

And why are you so angry?
 
Jul 19, 2009
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Re:

VeloFidelis said:
If you aspire to own and use what 'Pros' ride, then you live in a bubble... a shrinking bubble.
Where did this nonsense come from? Many amateurs ride on equipment even better than what many pros ride on. You cannot look at what just a fraction of the pros get and what the top teams get.
 
Apr 20, 2009
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I believe that you've missed the point... it's sarcasm.

That 'nonsense' comes from over two decades of exposure working with professional cycling team management, like your namesake, as a representative for manufacturers and sponsors... and yours? No one is arguing with your physics because, aside from being moot... the point is extraneous to the conversation, and no one cares. There is a name for those amateurs that ride 'better' equipment than Pros. It's not Hedge Fund Manager, although is could be... I will reign in my 'angry' and resist using it.

There has been plenty of dangerous product over the years being used at the highest levels of the sport, that thankfully never saw the light of day in a retail store. Athletes willing to risk long term affects of personal injury in pursuit of success is not limited to PEDs. Frames that fold, wheels that fold, handlebars, seatposts, pedal spindles that break predictably, while pursuing a competitive advantage, have long been part of professional cycling. With that in mind, the cases being made against disc brakes are laughable at best. Over heating?... doesn't happen. Shattered rotors?... never seen it. Danger from sharp edges?... compared to a chain ring?

It doesn't matter if professional cycling adopts disc brakes, although I predict it will. Professional cycling is a bubble. The most valid argument against is neutral support wheel changes. How does that really affect you? This thread is titled ' Disc Brakes on Road Bikes...' They are coming. They work better. Like many game changing products that preceded them, you don't have to like them, buy them, work on them, or used them. We can all continue the debate invoking mechanical minutia and splitting hairs of opinion on opposite sides. We will however, witness the transition together.
 
Jul 19, 2009
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Disc brakes or not, lack of grip on tires on wet or dry surfaces is still a bigger obstacle, changing to disc brakes does not improve this situation significantly.

I was mentioning the tire resistance since you talked about wind tunnel testing in connection to it, makes one wonder what is going on. Try writing text with more neutral sentences and that includes leaving the pointless bragging behind. If your arguments where good you wouldn't have to push you experience in the industry, it only makes you look more insecure of yourself, not to mention biased.
 
Apr 20, 2009
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The surface contact area for a road tire is a constant in the braking equation regardless of method, so your point is again moot. Better tires will improve all braking performance. The superior modulation of disc calipers provide better feedback to the rider, and allow more aggressive braking without breaking traction, which goes a long way to explaining why every other form of wheel competition uses them. They are less affected by the elements, and have no pad / rim compatibility issues. They don't reduce your wheel investment over time with unnecessary wear. But please, make your case for rim brakes.

References like, "in a wind tunnel... on a Tuesday", would for most readers, indicate a diminished sense of seriousness, even possible humor. I will be sure to adequately identify any such future references for your edification. As to the credential that empowers my 'nonsense'... you should try not asking the question, if the answer leaves you embarrassed and defensive.
 

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