Disc brakes on road bikes...

[Bustedknuckle]

Re: Re:

The difference in use between cross and road isnt comparable.there are no wheel changes in cross racing(only bikes)whereas road racing has lots.so until there is a faster way of wheel changes/and compatability(between brands) there will not be a revolution in dics.I have been riding bikes for over 35years and have never had a issue with rim brakes..

The comparison is a case study of what direction disc road is headed, nothing to do with format vs format. Regarding wheel changes; aside from a rotor standard to be agreed upon (140 f&r is my guess), the only thing left to figure out is variance of caliper position as it relates to taking a spare from neutral, rotors aren't going to always line up. Like a 'reset pad position' button that the mechanic can flip when they swap a wheel. I can tell you that when pros take a neutral wheel sometimes they're leaving the calipers in the open position because not every service course has the same concept of spoke tension or dish. I've been riding, racing, and wheel building for 30 years and had many issues with rim brakes. Different strokes.

Leaving the caliper in the open position happens often. It's easy on rim brakes, and it points to one of two answers:
* no pro cares about brakes
* they still work "well enough" in suboptimal operation (ie. rim brakes are already better than necessary)

Remember that the pros also want the lawyer tabs removed for faster wheel changes. Lawyer tabs are a problem for the pros, but possibly good for consumers who don't check their skewers before every ride. Or at least, they're good for the lawyers.

I've had a wheel swap with a misplaced rotor. It's not difficult to fix, but it'll cost you a race.

In road racing it feels a bit like road tubeless tyres (and yes, I also have a set of those): good, proven tech that doesn't work in a new application.

I talk to the guys at Campagnolo NA all the time..and they talk to gen-u-ine pros all the time. Campagnolo's business is 'bike racing'. They ask these guys and gals what they can improve in their kit and 'brakes' never come up.

It'll happen, the $ from the 'big boys' is just too big. Remember when Spinaci's were banned? Not big enough bribe to UCI..bigger from shimano and spam. Campag even tho they have 'em, don't really care. Road discs in Europe, Campagnolo's primary market, Groad bikes, this gravel grinder stuff, doesn't really exist. See a dirt road? Go ride it. Don't need
-1by
-wet disc
-tapered fork steerer
-fat tires

silly.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re: Re:

The difference in use between cross and road isnt comparable.there are no wheel changes in cross racing(only bikes)whereas road racing has lots.so until there is a faster way of wheel changes/and compatability(between brands) there will not be a revolution in dics.I have been riding bikes for over 35years and have never had a issue with rim brakes..

The comparison is a case study of what direction disc road is headed, nothing to do with format vs format. Regarding wheel changes; aside from a rotor standard to be agreed upon (140 f&r is my guess), the only thing left to figure out is variance of caliper position as it relates to taking a spare from neutral, rotors aren't going to always line up. Like a 'reset pad position' button that the mechanic can flip when they swap a wheel. I can tell you that when pros take a neutral wheel sometimes they're leaving the calipers in the open position because not every service course has the same concept of spoke tension or dish. I've been riding, racing, and wheel building for 30 years and had many issues with rim brakes. Different strokes.

Leaving the caliper in the open position happens often. It's easy on rim brakes, and it points to one of two answers:
* no pro cares about brakes
* they still work "well enough" in suboptimal operation (ie. rim brakes are already better than necessary)

Remember that the pros also want the lawyer tabs removed for faster wheel changes. Lawyer tabs are a problem for the pros, but possibly good for consumers who don't check their skewers before every ride. Or at least, they're good for the lawyers.

I've had a wheel swap with a misplaced rotor. It's not difficult to fix, but it'll cost you a race.

In road racing it feels a bit like road tubeless tyres (and yes, I also have a set of those): good, proven tech that doesn't work in a new application.

I talk to the guys at Campagnolo NA all the time..and they talk to gen-u-ine pros all the time. Campagnolo's business is 'bike racing'. They ask these guys and gals what they can improve in their kit and 'brakes' never come up.

It'll happen, the $ from the 'big boys' is just too big. Remember when Spinaci's were banned? Not big enough bribe to UCI..bigger from shimano and spam. Campag even tho they have 'em, don't really care. Road discs in Europe, Campagnolo's primary market, Groad bikes, this gravel grinder stuff, doesn't really exist. See a dirt road? Go ride it. Don't need
-1by
-wet disc
-tapered fork steerer
-fat tires

silly.

Good old Bustedknuckle, always about your personal preference and nothing else matters approach doesn't bode well for people looking at this with an ear to the ground or an iota of common sense. Never mind what the market demands it's all a conspiracy, right? Campagnolo absolutely does care about the pending release of their disc brakes. I think you're going off old info because I have a hard time believing you "talk to them all the time" since you retired a few years ago. The level of BS you're throwing around is getting pretty stinky.

You know what's really silly? Everything you hate about bikes (that's king silly initself) 1x, disc, gravel specific things, bigger tires,.... this 'all-road' or 'adventure' side that you despise so much is the only segment of the industry that saw any growth this year. Pure road bike sales have absolutely tanked. Don't think I'll be hitting you up for inside info at the horse races either.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re: Re:

The difference in use between cross and road isnt comparable.there are no wheel changes in cross racing(only bikes)whereas road racing has lots.so until there is a faster way of wheel changes/and compatability(between brands) there will not be a revolution in dics.I have been riding bikes for over 35years and have never had a issue with rim brakes..

The comparison is a case study of what direction disc road is headed, nothing to do with format vs format. Regarding wheel changes; aside from a rotor standard to be agreed upon (140 f&r is my guess), the only thing left to figure out is variance of caliper position as it relates to taking a spare from neutral, rotors aren't going to always line up. Like a 'reset pad position' button that the mechanic can flip when they swap a wheel. I can tell you that when pros take a neutral wheel sometimes they're leaving the calipers in the open position because not every service course has the same concept of spoke tension or dish. I've been riding, racing, and wheel building for 30 years and had many issues with rim brakes. Different strokes.

Leaving the caliper in the open position happens often. It's easy on rim brakes, and it points to one of two answers:
* no pro cares about brakes
* they still work "well enough" in suboptimal operation (ie. rim brakes are already better than necessary)

Remember that the pros also want the lawyer tabs removed for faster wheel changes. Lawyer tabs are a problem for the pros, but possibly good for consumers who don't check their skewers before every ride. Or at least, they're good for the lawyers.

I've had a wheel swap with a misplaced rotor. It's not difficult to fix, but it'll cost you a race.

In road racing it feels a bit like road tubeless tyres (and yes, I also have a set of those): good, proven tech that doesn't work in a new application.

Your two main points are clear blanket statements. Care to clarify?

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

[
Skin in the game? What exactly are you implying here, that I'm paid to argue with a retired shop owner on a forum that nobody comes to anymore except for politics? Sure, go ahead, I'm making millions!! :lol:

""Have you ridden anything newer than your decades old Merckx lately? Have you pegged any of those killer descents in your backyard at 50+mph on carbon tubulars with rim brakes? Of course not because disc brake armchair critic #1 still thinks that there's no benefit, even on dry roads."

Forgot it was you with a new name..you haven't changed have ya?

out

You're still bummed at your old Sram rep, an incident which happened YEARS ago, and somehow you equate me and this whole disc conspiracy together. "Skin in the game", ''something in it for ya?" Keep making utterly subjective arguments and I'll keep letting you know you're wrong. It's really that easy.

 

[berend]

Re: Re:

The difference in use between cross and road isnt comparable.there are no wheel changes in cross racing(only bikes)whereas road racing has lots.so until there is a faster way of wheel changes/and compatability(between brands) there will not be a revolution in dics.I have been riding bikes for over 35years and have never had a issue with rim brakes..

The comparison is a case study of what direction disc road is headed, nothing to do with format vs format. Regarding wheel changes; aside from a rotor standard to be agreed upon (140 f&r is my guess), the only thing left to figure out is variance of caliper position as it relates to taking a spare from neutral, rotors aren't going to always line up. Like a 'reset pad position' button that the mechanic can flip when they swap a wheel. I can tell you that when pros take a neutral wheel sometimes they're leaving the calipers in the open position because not every service course has the same concept of spoke tension or dish. I've been riding, racing, and wheel building for 30 years and had many issues with rim brakes. Different strokes.

Leaving the caliper in the open position happens often. It's easy on rim brakes, and it points to one of two answers:
* no pro cares about brakes
* they still work "well enough" in suboptimal operation (ie. rim brakes are already better than necessary)

Remember that the pros also want the lawyer tabs removed for faster wheel changes. Lawyer tabs are a problem for the pros, but possibly good for consumers who don't check their skewers before every ride. Or at least, they're good for the lawyers.

I've had a wheel swap with a misplaced rotor. It's not difficult to fix, but it'll cost you a race.

In road racing it feels a bit like road tubeless tyres (and yes, I also have a set of those): good, proven tech that doesn't work in a new application.

Your two main points are clear blanket statements. Care to clarify?

The topic is aligning rim brake calipers. When you swap wheels, the brakes don't necessarily line up, and sometimes you just leave the calipers open. This is a fact.

It's my speculation that this happens because brakes are not important; getting back on the road and into the race is more important, but more than that you're willing to race with the brakes open.

It's a fact that rim brakes will generally still work. They're very forgiving that way. It's just that you'll have to pull the lever further, and left or right caliper will brake first. The brakes will work, but at 90, 80, 70 %. You might not get full power, and if the rim surface is different you may need to modulate differently; but they will slow you down.

So it's my speculation that if you're willing to race with brakes at suboptimal, that rim brakes are already better than necessary.

Compare that to another mechanical component in a wheel swap: the skewer. I would never race with a suboptimal skewer.

I hope that clarified my blanket statement.


It's possible that disc brakes have to get to the point where they will generally still work after a wheel swap before the pros will accept them. Even if that means that the brakes only work at 50%.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re: Re:

The difference in use between cross and road isnt comparable.there are no wheel changes in cross racing(only bikes)whereas road racing has lots.so until there is a faster way of wheel changes/and compatability(between brands) there will not be a revolution in dics.I have been riding bikes for over 35years and have never had a issue with rim brakes..

The comparison is a case study of what direction disc road is headed, nothing to do with format vs format. Regarding wheel changes; aside from a rotor standard to be agreed upon (140 f&r is my guess), the only thing left to figure out is variance of caliper position as it relates to taking a spare from neutral, rotors aren't going to always line up. Like a 'reset pad position' button that the mechanic can flip when they swap a wheel. I can tell you that when pros take a neutral wheel sometimes they're leaving the calipers in the open position because not every service course has the same concept of spoke tension or dish. I've been riding, racing, and wheel building for 30 years and had many issues with rim brakes. Different strokes.

Leaving the caliper in the open position happens often. It's easy on rim brakes, and it points to one of two answers:
* no pro cares about brakes
* they still work "well enough" in suboptimal operation (ie. rim brakes are already better than necessary)

Remember that the pros also want the lawyer tabs removed for faster wheel changes. Lawyer tabs are a problem for the pros, but possibly good for consumers who don't check their skewers before every ride. Or at least, they're good for the lawyers.

I've had a wheel swap with a misplaced rotor. It's not difficult to fix, but it'll cost you a race.

In road racing it feels a bit like road tubeless tyres (and yes, I also have a set of those): good, proven tech that doesn't work in a new application.

Your two main points are clear blanket statements. Care to clarify?

The topic is aligning rim brake calipers. When you swap wheels, the brakes don't necessarily line up, and sometimes you just leave the calipers open. This is a fact.

It's my speculation that this happens because brakes are not important; getting back on the road and into the race is more important, but more than that you're willing to race with the brakes open.

It's a fact that rim brakes will generally still work. They're very forgiving that way. It's just that you'll have to pull the lever further, and left or right caliper will brake first. The brakes will work, but at 90, 80, 70 %. You might not get full power, and if the rim surface is different you may need to modulate differently; but they will slow you down.

So it's my speculation that if you're willing to race with brakes at suboptimal, that rim brakes are already better than necessary.

Compare that to another mechanical component in a wheel swap: the skewer. I would never race with a suboptimal skewer.

I hope that clarified my blanket statement.


It's possible that disc brakes have to get to the point where they will generally still work after a wheel swap before the pros will accept them. Even if that means that the brakes only work at 50%.

After all that "speculation" you finally hit it on the last note, but being able to get away with "suboptimal" or open brakes is going to be a thing of the past. It all comes down to the wheel change. A lot of effort has been put into the speed of the thru axle. Paul, Mavic, Tune, Naild, Focus, have some nice answers to that. The last thing to solve is what I mentioned earlier about having a 're-center' switch on a disc caliper. Something that the rider or mechanic can flip durning a wheel change to basically open the pads, but when the rider hits the brakes for the first time it locks in the new center position. The tech is there, it's just a matter of time before you see it.

The UCI's #1 rider for the last two years is going to grab the disc equipped bike at the first opportunity he gets in a big race. Sagan knows.

 

[Benotti69]

Pros ride what they are paid to ride.

If they are paid to ride discs they will ride discs. Don't mean they will like it.

Plenty of teams wanted to take Sram money but riders put their foot down and teams paid for shimano.

Look at what Flecha chose to ride after career ended. Titanium not carbon.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re:

Pros ride what they are paid to ride.

If they are paid to ride discs they will ride discs. Don't mean they will like it.

Plenty of teams wanted to take Sram money but riders put their foot down and teams paid for shimano.

Look at what Flecha chose to ride after career ended. Titanium not carbon.

You are right. However, I would argue most PT riders who have tested them are fully compliant with the performance aspect, it's the assumed things that they can't get past. Pack riding with disc isn't going to cause more injury than any other part of a bike already can in a pileup, regardless what they think about the Ventoso incident. Wheel changes are an important issue but not really a deal breaker at the moment. The trial restarts in less than a month, so If we see more than 2 or 3 teams at the PT level regularly showing up on disc brakes you bet the speed of the wheel change just gets faster and faster, and that opens the door for neutral service.

Road is an odd beast since most pro roadies are road riders only, so you get a real conservative POV when asked what they think about new tech being introduced to them. There really is nothing backing up the ones who are against it because more often times than not they have little to no experience with them, when you hear opinion from the PT riders it's usually all conjecture. How do some of these guys & gals form their opinions with such limited (if at all) experience? Sadly, this is most of what we're hearing lately. The ones that you hear in favor of disc are often times multidisciplinary riders that already have the experience with the brakes from mtb or cross. Somebody like Sagan who came from mtb doesn't have to be persuaded. So, what's not to like about these spinning blades of death?

Look at what Ted King chose to ride after his career ended, always with those dang disc brakes! :lol:

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

Pros ride what they are paid to ride.

If they are paid to ride discs they will ride discs. Don't mean they will like it.

Plenty of teams wanted to take Sram money but riders put their foot down and teams paid for shimano.

Look at what Flecha chose to ride after career ended. Titanium not carbon.

Those two statements seem contradictory.

I thought Flecha was on steel? Either way, both are better than carbon

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Pros ride what they are paid to ride.

If they are paid to ride discs they will ride discs. Don't mean they will like it.

Plenty of teams wanted to take Sram money but riders put their foot down and teams paid for shimano.

Look at what Flecha chose to ride after career ended. Titanium not carbon.

Those two statements seem contradictory.

I thought Flecha was on steel? Either way, both are better than carbon

Pro peloton rejected discs if i remember correctly.

the sram rejection statement was based on cav refusing to use it and Slipstream, JVs team jettisoning it at riders requests even though no shimano sponsorship deal.

Flecha on a Passoni Top Force. Titanium, i could be wrong.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Pros ride what they are paid to ride.

If they are paid to ride discs they will ride discs. Don't mean they will like it.

Plenty of teams wanted to take Sram money but riders put their foot down and teams paid for shimano.

Look at what Flecha chose to ride after career ended. Titanium not carbon.

You are right. However, I would argue most PT riders who have tested them are fully compliant with the performance aspect, it's the assumed things that they can't get past. Pack riding with disc isn't going to cause more injury than any other part of a bike already can in a pileup, regardless what they think about the Ventoso incident. Wheel changes are an important issue but not really a deal breaker at the moment. The trial restarts in less than a month, so If we see more than 2 or 3 teams at the PT level regularly showing up on disc brakes you bet the speed of the wheel change just gets faster and faster, and that opens the door for neutral service.

Road is an odd beast since most pro roadies are road riders only, so you get a real conservative POV when asked what they think about new tech being introduced to them. There really is nothing backing up the ones who are against it because more often times than not they have little to no experience with them, when you hear opinion from the PT riders it's usually all conjecture. How do some of these guys & gals form their opinions with such limited (if at all) experience? Sadly, this is most of what we're hearing lately. The ones that you hear in favor of disc are often times multidisciplinary riders that already have the experience with the brakes from mtb or cross. Somebody like Sagan who came from mtb doesn't have to be persuaded. So, what's not to like about these spinning blades of death?

Look at what Ted King chose to ride after his career ended, always with those dang disc brakes! :lol:

Ted King really set the pro world alight in his time

Hence why i used Flecha as a reference. At least Flecha was at the pointy end of things a lot of the time.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re: Re:

Pros ride what they are paid to ride.

If they are paid to ride discs they will ride discs. Don't mean they will like it.

Plenty of teams wanted to take Sram money but riders put their foot down and teams paid for shimano.

Look at what Flecha chose to ride after career ended. Titanium not carbon.

You are right. However, I would argue most PT riders who have tested them are fully compliant with the performance aspect, it's the assumed things that they can't get past. Pack riding with disc isn't going to cause more injury than any other part of a bike already can in a pileup, regardless what they think about the Ventoso incident. Wheel changes are an important issue but not really a deal breaker at the moment. The trial restarts in less than a month, so If we see more than 2 or 3 teams at the PT level regularly showing up on disc brakes you bet the speed of the wheel change just gets faster and faster, and that opens the door for neutral service.

Road is an odd beast since most pro roadies are road riders only, so you get a real conservative POV when asked what they think about new tech being introduced to them. There really is nothing backing up the ones who are against it because more often times than not they have little to no experience with them, when you hear opinion from the PT riders it's usually all conjecture. How do some of these guys & gals form their opinions with such limited (if at all) experience? Sadly, this is most of what we're hearing lately. The ones that you hear in favor of disc are often times multidisciplinary riders that already have the experience with the brakes from mtb or cross. Somebody like Sagan who came from mtb doesn't have to be persuaded. So, what's not to like about these spinning blades of death?

Look at what Ted King chose to ride after his career ended, always with those dang disc brakes! :lol:

Ted King really set the pro world alight in his time

Hence why i used Flecha as a reference. At least Flecha was at the pointy end of things a lot of the time.

Big fan of Flecha throughout his entire career. However, Ted King still throws his hat in a race here and there, and WINS, and with those terrible disc brakes. And what does Flecha do? He only talks about racing these days for the camera. I met Flecha last year at a party, very nice guy, turns out his girlfriend lives up the street from me. Couple years ago I started having Flecha sightings but brushed it off thinking it was another doppelganger. My friend who I used to train with and race against could pass as his long lost twin.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re: Re:

Pro peloton rejected discs if i remember correctly.

The UCI stopped the disc brake trials after Roubiax. Since then both rider rep groups CPA and AIGCP are all in agreement with the UCI to restart the trials in January.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Pro peloton rejected discs if i remember correctly.

The UCI stopped the disc brake trials after Roubiax. Since then both rider rep groups CPA and AIGCP are all in agreement with the UCI to restart the trials in January.

Trails were stopped at behest of riders/teams.

Money talks. The sport is not in a financially secure position.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Pros ride what they are paid to ride.

If they are paid to ride discs they will ride discs. Don't mean they will like it.

Plenty of teams wanted to take Sram money but riders put their foot down and teams paid for shimano.

Look at what Flecha chose to ride after career ended. Titanium not carbon.

You are right. However, I would argue most PT riders who have tested them are fully compliant with the performance aspect, it's the assumed things that they can't get past. Pack riding with disc isn't going to cause more injury than any other part of a bike already can in a pileup, regardless what they think about the Ventoso incident. Wheel changes are an important issue but not really a deal breaker at the moment. The trial restarts in less than a month, so If we see more than 2 or 3 teams at the PT level regularly showing up on disc brakes you bet the speed of the wheel change just gets faster and faster, and that opens the door for neutral service.

Road is an odd beast since most pro roadies are road riders only, so you get a real conservative POV when asked what they think about new tech being introduced to them. There really is nothing backing up the ones who are against it because more often times than not they have little to no experience with them, when you hear opinion from the PT riders it's usually all conjecture. How do some of these guys & gals form their opinions with such limited (if at all) experience? Sadly, this is most of what we're hearing lately. The ones that you hear in favor of disc are often times multidisciplinary riders that already have the experience with the brakes from mtb or cross. Somebody like Sagan who came from mtb doesn't have to be persuaded. So, what's not to like about these spinning blades of death?

Look at what Ted King chose to ride after his career ended, always with those dang disc brakes! :lol:

Ted King really set the pro world alight in his time

Hence why i used Flecha as a reference. At least Flecha was at the pointy end of things a lot of the time.

Big fan of Flecha throughout his entire career. However, Ted King still throws his hat in a race here and there, and WINS, and with those terrible disc brakes. And what does Flecha do? He only talks about racing these days for the camera. I met Flecha last year at a party, very nice guy, turns out his girlfriend lives up the street from me. Couple years ago I started having Flecha sightings but brushed it off thinking it was another doppelganger. My friend who I used to train with and race against could pass as his long lost twin.

I doubt King won because he braked better than others. Riders want to go fast and as pointed out before, calipers did and do the job well. As pointed out the industry is looking to make problems that dont exist to make people change bikes so the industry can make money.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re: Re:

Pros ride what they are paid to ride.

If they are paid to ride discs they will ride discs. Don't mean they will like it.

Plenty of teams wanted to take Sram money but riders put their foot down and teams paid for shimano.

Look at what Flecha chose to ride after career ended. Titanium not carbon.

You are right. However, I would argue most PT riders who have tested them are fully compliant with the performance aspect, it's the assumed things that they can't get past. Pack riding with disc isn't going to cause more injury than any other part of a bike already can in a pileup, regardless what they think about the Ventoso incident. Wheel changes are an important issue but not really a deal breaker at the moment. The trial restarts in less than a month, so If we see more than 2 or 3 teams at the PT level regularly showing up on disc brakes you bet the speed of the wheel change just gets faster and faster, and that opens the door for neutral service.

Road is an odd beast since most pro roadies are road riders only, so you get a real conservative POV when asked what they think about new tech being introduced to them. There really is nothing backing up the ones who are against it because more often times than not they have little to no experience with them, when you hear opinion from the PT riders it's usually all conjecture. How do some of these guys & gals form their opinions with such limited (if at all) experience? Sadly, this is most of what we're hearing lately. The ones that you hear in favor of disc are often times multidisciplinary riders that already have the experience with the brakes from mtb or cross. Somebody like Sagan who came from mtb doesn't have to be persuaded. So, what's not to like about these spinning blades of death?

Look at what Ted King chose to ride after his career ended, always with those dang disc brakes! :lol:

Ted King really set the pro world alight in his time

Hence why i used Flecha as a reference. At least Flecha was at the pointy end of things a lot of the time.

Big fan of Flecha throughout his entire career. However, Ted King still throws his hat in a race here and there, and WINS, and with those terrible disc brakes. And what does Flecha do? He only talks about racing these days for the camera. I met Flecha last year at a party, very nice guy, turns out his girlfriend lives up the street from me. Couple years ago I started having Flecha sightings but brushed it off thinking it was another doppelganger. My friend who I used to train with and race against could pass as his long lost twin.

I doubt King won because he braked better than others. Riders want to go fast and as pointed out before, calipers did and do the job well. As pointed out the industry is looking to make problems that dont exist to make people change bikes so the industry can make money.

And thats where the dividing line is. The people against look at it as conspiracy, the people for look at it as an improvement. It's pretty evident that you can still have a rim brake road bike, and those parts will be supported well past when we hang up our cleats. Nobody is making you do anything.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

And thats where the dividing line is. The people against look at it as conspiracy, the people for look at it as an improvement. It's pretty evident that you can still have a rim brake road bike, and those parts will be supported well past when we hang up our cleats. Nobody is making you do anything.

No conspiracy. It is purely a marketing exercise to generate revenue.

I remember somewhere reading Steve Cram (IIRC) telling someone never spend more 80Sterling on a pair of running shoes. The more expensive runners(trainers/sneakers) are no better but priced for people who feel they need to spend that amount in order to think they are getting a better product.

Plenty of industries do it.

VW own Porsche. The Porsche Cayenne is a VW Toureg with Porsche covering. Same 4x4 but some people want the name convincing themselves it is something better.

 

[VeloFidelis]

Disc brakes have been introduced into, and have eventually become the standard in every wheeled racing sport. Pro cycling will not continue to be an exception for very much longer. Subjective minutia in the opinions of PT cyclists aside; racing is becoming less and less a bell-weather for what consumers and component manufacturers consider as viable retail products. It doesn't really matter that the Pros are slow to adapt. The road bike market is moving strongly towards disc in new road bike purchases for the simple reason, like faster internet service, they just work better. And like faster internet, there's no going back. Grumpy naysayers were also slow to adopt clipless pedals, or move away from downtube shifters. To say they do not work better, is to admit to not having used them.

The danger the Pro peloton faces in their intransigence, is risking support in sponsorship dollars. I am all for them standing up for what they believe, but cycling is a business, and a sponsors involvement is based on return. If the market is accepting of new technology that the Pros reject, the sound business decision is to go with a market direction that generates revenue, rather than a potentially unnecessary marketing expense. Or to find new marketing expenses that support new technology - ie: cyclocross, endurance racing, gravel grinding. A cursory examination of any of the majors cycling brands websites reveal a clear move in that direction.

Unfortunately the equipment 'arms race' in competitive road cycling has left the average, even serious cyclists off the back with waning interest. Their return on investment in "Pro Tour" quality components just does not pencil out. Undoubtedly the true 'pedal-o-file' with more than a few road bikes and multiple wheelsets hanging in the shed, will resist a potentially expensive new market trend. It's understandable - that gear still works amazingly well, and will continue to do so. But, speaking as a life long cyclist and former racer, with more than a few bikes in the shed, I know exactly on which side of the disc brake debate any future purchases I might make will be... The component manufacturers know too.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re: Re:

And thats where the dividing line is. The people against look at it as conspiracy, the people for look at it as an improvement. It's pretty evident that you can still have a rim brake road bike, and those parts will be supported well past when we hang up our cleats. Nobody is making you do anything.

No conspiracy. It is purely a marketing exercise to generate revenue.

I remember somewhere reading Steve Cram (IIRC) telling someone never spend more 80Sterling on a pair of running shoes. The more expensive runners(trainers/sneakers) are no better but priced for people who feel they need to spend that amount in order to think they are getting a better product.

Plenty of industries do it.

VW own Porsche. The Porsche Cayenne is a VW Toureg with Porsche covering. Same 4x4 but some people want the name convincing themselves it is something better.

When you say an industry is generating problems that don't exist for the sake of profits that's conspiratorial as it gets. Your analogies aren't matching up either. If you are comparing rim brakes to disc it's entirely different technology doing the same thing. Hardly the difference between sneakers or a body on a car. Comparing mechanical disc to hydraulic, where the sales and marketing is trying to upsell you when you don't need it. Sales and marketing, sure, yuk! How does an industry survive without the nessasary evil. It can't.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re:

Disc brakes have been introduced into, and have eventually become the standard in every wheeled racing sport. Pro cycling will not continue to be an exception for very much longer. Subjective minutia in the opinions of PT cyclists aside; racing is becoming less and less a bell-weather for what consumers and component manufacturers consider as viable retail products. It doesn't really matter that the Pros are slow to adapt. The road bike market is moving strongly towards disc in new road bike purchases for the simple reason, like faster internet service, they just work better. And like faster internet, there's no going back. Grumpy naysayers were also slow to adopt clipless pedals, or move away from downtube shifters. To say they do not work better, is to admit to not having used them.

The danger the Pro peloton faces in their intransigence, is risking support in sponsorship dollars. I am all for them standing up for what they believe, but cycling is a business, and a sponsors involvement is based on return. If the market is accepting of new technology that the Pros reject, the sound business decision is to go with a market direction that generates revenue, rather than a potentially unnecessary marketing expense. Or to find new marketing expenses that support new technology - ie: cyclocross, endurance racing, gravel grinding. A cursory examination of any of the majors cycling brands websites reveal a clear move in that direction.

Unfortunately the equipment 'arms race' in competitive road cycling has left the average, even serious cyclists off the back with waning interest. Their return on investment in "Pro Tour" quality components just does not pencil out. Undoubtedly the true 'pedal-o-file' with more than a few road bikes and multiple wheelsets hanging in the shed, will resist a potentially expensive new market trend. It's understandable - that gear still works amazingly well, and will continue to do so. But, speaking as a life long cyclist and former racer, with more than a few bikes in the shed, I know exactly on which side of the disc brake debate any future purchases I might make will be... The component manufacturers know too.

Great post!

 

[berend]

Re: Re:

And thats where the dividing line is. The people against look at it as conspiracy, the people for look at it as an improvement. It's pretty evident that you can still have a rim brake road bike, and those parts will be supported well past when we hang up our cleats. Nobody is making you do anything.

No conspiracy. It is purely a marketing exercise to generate revenue.

I remember somewhere reading Steve Cram (IIRC) telling someone never spend more 80Sterling on a pair of running shoes. The more expensive runners(trainers/sneakers) are no better but priced for people who feel they need to spend that amount in order to think they are getting a better product.

Plenty of industries do it.

VW own Porsche. The Porsche Cayenne is a VW Toureg with Porsche covering. Same 4x4 but some people want the name convincing themselves it is something better.

When you say an industry is generating problems that don't exist for the sake of profits that's conspiratorial as it gets. Your analogies aren't matching up either. If you are comparing rim brakes to disc it's entirely different technology doing the same thing. Hardly the difference between sneakers or a body on a car. Comparing mechanical disc to hydraulic, where the sales and marketing is trying to upsell you when you don't need it. Sales and marketing, sure, yuk! How does an industry survive without the nessasary evil. It can't.

It doesn't sound conspiratorial, but it does sound fatigued. There have been lots of solutions to problems that don't exist recently -- and historically -- in cycling. And yes, in lots of other industries.

It's not conspiratorial when one marketing department does it, it's conspiratorial when all marketing departments do it in agreement with each other.

Also, rim brakes are disc brakes. It just so happens that the disc is 622mm. Seriously, look at them: they work the same way. The materials are different: rubber on alu or carbon vs. steel, but it's an outside clamp on a rotating disc surface.

Disc brakes right now have had a lot of early adopter problems, including overheating, wheel changes, lever problems and recalls, injuries. I think it's normal and healthy that a large part of the cycling community is critical.

You seem to take criticism of a product and technology quite strongly,

 

[VeloFidelis]

I think you are conflating the 'cycling community' with the bicycle 'racing community'. Actually an infinitesimally small percentage of the cycling community has any concerns about disc brakes, and in reality only a small percentage of the racing community has any real concerns... that would be the 'road racing' community. Certainly mountain bike and cyclocross racing communities do not have any problems with disc brakes. The endurance racing / gravel grind community has no problems with disc brakes. Ted King won the Dirty Kanza 200 in front of 550 other racers - that's twice the Pro Peloton - and neither he, or any of them have a problem with disc brakes. Tour Divide riders have no problem with disc brakes.

So who exactly does have a problem? I guess that would be any rider worried about, and expecting a mid race wheel change from either team, or neutral support... that's it. If I were to hazard a guess at what percentage that is of the 'cycling community', I would start at .00 something. The cyclists that spend money to buy their bikes, are having no problem spending it on disc brakes. So please take the myth of great concern, along with the myths of over heating, and unreliability, and realize that the 'actual' greater cycling community considers them all to be b#llsh!t.

You seem unduly influenced by a small minority opinion.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re: Re:

You seem to take criticism of a product and technology quite strongly,

I've been pushing for disc brakes on drop bar bikes for 18 years, the last 11 of which are riding and racing on disc, not to mention thousands of disc road and cross wheel sets built in that time. People have had an awfully long time to figure this stuff out for themselves, Mr. Earl E. Adopter. So you chose to answer for Benotti69 who's convinced that disc brakes and the marketing of such is akin to the expensive sneaker you don't need, or the rebadged car body that costs more because of a different hood ornament. Can you really blame me?

 

[VeloFidelis]

Hmmmmm... yup, that should move the needle a bit.

https://cyclingtips.com/2016/12/peter-sagan-considering-using-disc-brakes-for-2017-paris-roubaix/

 

[berend]

Re: Re:

You seem to take criticism of a product and technology quite strongly,

I've been pushing for disc brakes on drop bar bikes for 18 years, the last 11 of which are riding and racing on disc, not to mention thousands of disc road and cross wheel sets built in that time. People have had an awfully long time to figure this stuff out for themselves, Mr. Earl E. Adopter. So you chose to answer for Benotti69 who's convinced that disc brakes and the marketing of such is akin to the expensive sneaker you don't need, or the rebadged car body that costs more because of a different hood ornament. Can you really blame me?

I've been an early adopter, yes. No more, though I've learned my lesson.

To respond to your example: Expensive sneakers were theoretically better for strike impact, and for pronation. Recent (a few years ago) studies have shown that this is not true. Re-modeled car bodies are almost always technically worse than the manufacturer bodies (spoilers that don't provide downforce, mess with aerodynamics, etc.)

If disc brakes are better, there should be data. There are enough manufacturers pushing for it, there's enough money behind it that there should be data. Discs have been on bicycle wheels for long enough (more than a decade) to test them. For me: no data, no sale.

For me, the argument "they are obviously better" simply isn't good enough. Not anymore. It rings exactly the same as "look, shiny!" -- ie. marketing.

I've bought stuff because of "shiny." I'm vain. I've got lots of "shiny". In this case, unfortunately, there are drawbacks like overheating, and wheel exchanges, and recalled levers, etc. I race my bicycle. It must be safe.

That doesn't stop you from buying them. Or selling them. It only stops me.