Disc brakes on road bikes...

Page 26 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
As I see it, the only, and I mean only, reason not to go disc brakes, is if you are a total weight weenie, building a bike for something like the Mt. Washington hill climb, a race with no weight restrictions. Then, I get it, just one, single, front caliper brake will do it. A disc would be a waste for the entire 7.6 miles you'd be riding up that thing.

I should also note, if you're on a budget, and can't afford discs, and are happy with your caliper brakes and they work, I'm good with that. Keep on riding, and save your money. That's never a bad thing.

Otherwise, it's the same irrational resistance we saw from cyclists about everything from aero bars, to clipless pedals, to helmets even.
 
Jagartrott said:
Alpe d'Huez said:
This was me, a V8 head slapper. I too thought "what's the point? Plus they weigh more." Then, I actually rode a bike with them, first mechanical, then hydraulic. Now, every bike I own, and consider buying, has discs, and there is no going back. Ever. Period. End of statement.

I'm convinced the only people against disc brakes are those who have never ridden them, or so rarely ride them to the point they can't properly evaluate them. There are a few others I should add, people that just resist change, no matter what, and find a way to rationalize their resistance. Philosopher Eric Hoffer wrote an entire book on this concept, The Ordeal of Change, in case anyone wants to wake up first, before switching over.

https://www.amazon.com/Ordeal-Change-Eric-Hoffer/dp/1933435100
Yes, I think some form of strange xenophobia or hyper-conservatism among road bikers is slowing the implementation of disc brakes. The almost hysterical reactions by some in the peleton only reinforce my opinion on that. Disc brakes are just superior, period. I don't understand how there can be 32 pages of discussion on this.
Haha, if you look back you'll see that maybe 16 pages of the 32 are actual discussion, the rest is well... um...

I hadn't owned a bike with disk brakes until my mother in law gave me a brand new Rad Mini last month. I didn't realize how much fun an electric bike could be (and I was dead set against them) but anyway, it has disk brakes that constantly rub which makes an otherwise pleasant experience a little annoying. All the adjustment in the world won't stop the tiny rubbing which doesn't affect performance but I can still hear it! This bike weighs a good 60 to 75 pounds, I'm not really sure because I haven't weighed it yet but the fact remains that it's quite heavy. I couldn't imagine rim brakes stopping or even slowing down this behemoth, so the disk brakes certainly have their place on bikes. As far as getting them for a road bike, I'm not convinced that I need them and like the traditional rim brakes that I have on my other bikes. It's not that I have anything against disk brakes, I just like the traditional look. So for me, outside of my electric bike it's all about personal choice. I'd hate to see disk brakes become so popular that they phase out traditional rim brakes...
 
Jul 4, 2009
9,666
0
0
Alpe d'Huez said:
Giuseppe Magnetico said:
Hmm, for the past 10 years of disc brakes on drop bar bikes I have yet to personally come across someone who bought the bike and thought it was a mistake. What I do experience is many forehead slapping V8 moments, like why didn't they do it earlier.
This was me, a V8 head slapper. I too thought "what's the point? Plus they weigh more." Then, I actually rode a bike with them, first mechanical, then hydraulic. Now, every bike I own, and consider buying, has discs, and there is no going back. Ever. Period. End of statement.

I'm convinced the only people against disc brakes are those who have never ridden them, or so rarely ride them to the point they can't properly evaluate them. There are a few others I should add, people that just resist change, no matter what, and find a way to rationalize their resistance. Philosopher Eric Hoffer wrote an entire book on this concept, The Ordeal of Change, in case anyone wants to wake up first, before switching over.

https://www.amazon.com/Ordeal-Change-Eric-Hoffer/dp/1933435100
....kinda funny that you trot out Hoffer to back-stop your statement.....

Cheers
 
Jagartrott said:
Alpe d'Huez said:
This was me, a V8 head slapper. I too thought "what's the point? Plus they weigh more." Then, I actually rode a bike with them, first mechanical, then hydraulic. Now, every bike I own, and consider buying, has discs, and there is no going back. Ever. Period. End of statement.

I'm convinced the only people against disc brakes are those who have never ridden them, or so rarely ride them to the point they can't properly evaluate them. There are a few others I should add, people that just resist change, no matter what, and find a way to rationalize their resistance. Philosopher Eric Hoffer wrote an entire book on this concept, The Ordeal of Change, in case anyone wants to wake up first, before switching over.

https://www.amazon.com/Ordeal-Change-Eric-Hoffer/dp/1933435100
Yes, I think some form of strange xenophobia or hyper-conservatism among road bikers is slowing the implementation of disc brakes. The almost hysterical reactions by some in the peleton only reinforce my opinion on that. Disc brakes are just superior, period. I don't understand how there can be 32 pages of discussion on this.
PelOton, please. Disc brakes are more powerful and have superior modulation but group to group, disc brakes are heavier, more expensive and more complicated to install/setup. In addition, no such thing as 'upgrading' your present rig...new bike complete required. Also 'superior' implies there is something inherently wrong with caliper brakes on aluminum rims, function-wise. As in they are weak, flexy, not effective. So....imho, each rider/consumer needs to determine the 'are they worth it to me' calculus. For me they aren't.
 
Apr 8, 2012
840
0
0
Alpe d'Huez said:
Giuseppe Magnetico said:
Hmm, for the past 10 years of disc brakes on drop bar bikes I have yet to personally come across someone who bought the bike and thought it was a mistake. What I do experience is many forehead slapping V8 moments, like why didn't they do it earlier.
This was me, a V8 head slapper. I too thought "what's the point? Plus they weigh more." Then, I actually rode a bike with them, first mechanical, then hydraulic. Now, every bike I own, and consider buying, has discs, and there is no going back. Ever. Period. End of statement.

I'm convinced the only people against disc brakes are those who have never ridden them, or so rarely ride them to the point they can't properly evaluate them. There are a few others I should add, people that just resist change, no matter what, and find a way to rationalize their resistance. Philosopher Eric Hoffer wrote an entire book on this concept, The Ordeal of Change, in case anyone wants to wake up first, before switching over.

https://www.amazon.com/Ordeal-Change-Eric-Hoffer/dp/1933435100
Exactly right! And nowhere is this phenomenon of resistance to change more prevalent than in road cycling. A constant reminder that being nostalgic and preserving tradition only works up until the point when it turns political. Queue Gianni Bugno and his merry band of CPA "discs will kill you" goon squad. To this day most of the elite PT riders who you would think, even I thought, would have many d-brake test/train/race miles in by now.. simply don't.

Funny thing about nostalgia, ahem! [sarc-coughing]. After I wrote that last post on Sunday off the hook comes the 1998 Colnago MasterXLight for a spin. Campagnolo Record/Chorus 10s mix...check, Ambrosio Nemesis rims laced to Record hubs with CX-Rays wrapped in fresh Vittoria Corsa tubulars....check, check, check. Still one of the best riding bikes I've ever owned in the last 30 years. A telepathic technical descender too, rim brakes and all.
 
Jul 4, 2009
9,666
0
0
Re:

Alpe d'Huez said:
Funny because...?
...ok, you had to ask .....

.........well, the original line was........"....kinda funny that you trot out Hoffer to back-stop your manifesto, uhhhh, statement "....because when I came up with manifesto a light bulb popped on that illuminated something that I thought was ironically funny....you see, Hoffer's book was a major influence on Ted Kaczynski's Manifesto....which would have led to some silly warning about being careful about the company you keep but I canned that and watered the whole thing down to what I then posted......

Cheers
 
Apr 8, 2012
840
0
0
Bustedknuckle said:
PelOton, please. Disc brakes are more powerful and have superior modulation but group to group, disc brakes are heavier, more expensive and more complicated to install/setup. In addition, no such thing as 'upgrading' your present rig...new bike complete required. Also 'superior' implies there is something inherently wrong with caliper brakes on aluminum rims, function-wise. As in they are weak, flexy, not effective. So....imho, each rider/consumer needs to determine the 'are they worth it to me' calculus. For me they aren't.
Since you retired 4 years ago much has changed. Seems your former mechanic has turned the shop into the disc brake "groad" oasis of the Republic. Clamo, clamatis, omnes clamamus pro glace lactis :lol:
 
Nov 8, 2012
12,104
0
0
Re:

Alpe d'Huez said:
As I see it, the only, and I mean only, reason not to go disc brakes, is if you are a total weight weenie, building a bike for something like the Mt. Washington hill climb, a race with no weight restrictions. Then, I get it, just one, single, front caliper brake will do it. A disc would be a waste for the entire 7.6 miles you'd be riding up that thing.

I should also note, if you're on a budget, and can't afford discs, and are happy with your caliper brakes and they work, I'm good with that. Keep on riding, and save your money. That's never a bad thing.

Otherwise, it's the same irrational resistance we saw from cyclists about everything from aero bars, to clipless pedals, to helmets even.
Yep... I don't own a rim brake bike anymore (excluding my l'eroica bike, which I don't ride anymore... been there, done that). MTB, gravel, road, city all are disc. Innovation plus technology has usually been good developments.

Don't own an aluminum rim wheel anymore either...
 
Giuseppe Magnetico said:
Bustedknuckle said:
PelOton, please. Disc brakes are more powerful and have superior modulation but group to group, disc brakes are heavier, more expensive and more complicated to install/setup. In addition, no such thing as 'upgrading' your present rig...new bike complete required. Also 'superior' implies there is something inherently wrong with caliper brakes on aluminum rims, function-wise. As in they are weak, flexy, not effective. So....imho, each rider/consumer needs to determine the 'are they worth it to me' calculus. For me they aren't.
Since you retired 4 years ago much has changed. Seems your former mechanic has turned the shop into the disc brake "groad" oasis of the Republic. Clamo, clamatis, omnes clamamus pro glace lactis :lol:
His shop, he can do whatever he wants and has done so. Moots, yes even with discs, are a-flyin out the door..good for him. Only somebody who wishes to go outta biz would not recognize discs on road/Groad/enthusiast's bikes are here..BUT, even tho the 'market', as daily changing as it is, says all discs all the time(kinda like carbon) and very few would opt for a non disc Moots these days(altho Jim sells quite a lot of these), they are still more expensive, heavier and more complicated to set up compared to non disc group..say an Ultegra mechanical group. BUT iffa ya want disc stuff, step right up and show your CC#.

BUT so what, I would have thought the UCI would have figured the disc BS out and there would be many, many, most, all(?) discs in the pelOton in 2017..but at Giro, TdF, Vuelta right now, P-R, Flanders, blah, bah..how many riders sported disc chubbies?

Quod ultra haec mutantur, eo magis quod eadem manere :rolleyes:
 
Apr 8, 2012
840
0
0
Bustedknuckle said:
BUT so what, I would have thought the UCI would have figured the disc BS out and there would be many, many, most, all(?) discs in the pelOton in 2017..but at Giro, TdF, Vuelta right now, P-R, Flanders, blah, bah..how many riders sported disc chubbies?
I don't think anybody really cares whether the pros adopt disc or not besides the manufactures. Makes for fantastic drama tho, doesn't it?
 
That's about all there is to it, as I see it, drama. People seem to hold pros in this level of sage wisdom on all things cycling. And yet, the same "too heavy", "will slice you up like OJ", "don't really work better", irrational arguments somehow don't apply to CX, or MTB racing of any sort where they are prominent. Nor to when pros like Marcel Kittel use them. The paranoid resistance remains.

As to not being able to afford to make the switch from a current bike, that is something I do understand. As I said before, if someone doesn't have the money, and are okay with the rim brakes you have now, so be it. I understand that. Get out and ride whatever bike you have!

As to Kaczynski, I'm not sure what to say. Insane genius. But he wasn't even in the news when Hoffer wrote his works.
 
Apr 8, 2012
840
0
0
Re:

Your point is wildly accurate, Alpe. We've already been through decades of disc brake drama with mtb and cx, and when enough people got rides in the skepticism and cynicism disappears. History has a strange way of repeating itself.
 
May 24, 2015
92
0
0
I know that I'm about 4 months late to the party on this, but just laughed my ass off when I saw Pinarello have launched the F10 Disc.
Good one Fausto!
 
Jun 30, 2012
1,300
0
0
https://www.flickr.com/photos/winkyintheuk/albums/72157665522087839

I've now got a month-or-so and over 1000km on my new Dura-ace disc-braked all-road bike (see link above). Here's my experience:

1) They work great in the dry. A bit better than my SR on Exalith-treated rims, but not much in it from a practical perspective, really.

2) They work OK in the wet, but once saturated, the initial bite is much worse than when they are dry. In the wet, once the water is cleared, they are better than my SR rim brakes, but I actually expected less performance drop-off in the wet from discs than what I am experiencing. This has been quite disappointing as wet-weather performance was what I was really after.

3) Clearances appear to be too tight in the calipers. Small bits of debris from wet roads seem to very commonly get lodged somewhere in the calipers, causing a scraping and pinging noise from the rotor. It's not the pads rubbing, as it never happens on dry roads, and is not related to braking. If I ride through a puddle, the noise is almost certain to start, and lasts for a few hundred metres before whatever was stuck eventually clears itself. Next puddle, it starts all over.

4) The deafening squealing of the pads in the wet is absolutely infuriating. But for the performance of the brakes, this would perhaps be a deal breaker for me. I've tried both sintered metal and resin pads. Hard braking, light braking, everything in between. No difference. They squeal like banshees until they are well and truly hot and dried out (which only happens on the most severe downhill stops).

5) Some have advised that there is a mystical "bedding in" process that must be followed. I have had much conflicting advice on this, but don't really see how it is much different to just using the brakes. I also have absolutely no time for this level of stuffing about. Kind like the reason I won't use tubeless road tyres.

6) I replaced the front OEM resin pads after about 600km. They were more than 1/2 worn. I expect longer life from the new sintered pads. The sintered pads also seem to have better "bite", but both are compromised in the wet.

7) The return springs on the pistons and pads don't really seem strong enough. It sometimes takes a few seconds for the pads to clear the rotor after I release the brakes. Yes, my pistons might be dirty (after just 1000km!), but really, who needs this issue? I'd gladly put up with some more lever force for a more positive return.

All in all, I'm glad I went to discs for my all-road/winter bike due to better (but worse than expected) wet-weather performance and the fact I'm not wearing the rims, but on the basis of my experience, I would never contemplate discs for a "summer" carbon race bike that was going to see mainly fairweather riding. I just don't see that the upside is worth the compromises.
 
Apr 8, 2012
840
0
0
winkybiker said:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/winkyintheuk/albums/72157665522087839

I've now got a month-or-so and over 1000km on my new Dura-ace disc-braked all-road bike (see link above). Here's my experience:

1) They work great in the dry. A bit better than my SR on Exalith-treated rims, but not much in it from a practical perspective, really.

2) They work OK in the wet, but once saturated, the initial bite is much worse than when they are dry. In the wet, once the water is cleared, they are better than my SR rim brakes, but I actually expected less performance drop-off in the wet from discs than what I am experiencing. This has been quite disappointing as wet-weather performance was what I was really after.

3) Clearances appear to be too tight in the calipers. Small bits of debris from wet roads seem to very commonly get lodged somewhere in the calipers, causing a scraping and pinging noise from the rotor. It's not the pads rubbing, as it never happens on dry roads, and is not related to braking. If I ride through a puddle, the noise is almost certain to start, and lasts for a few hundred metres before whatever was stuck eventually clears itself. Next puddle, it starts all over.

4) The deafening squealing of the pads in the wet is absolutely infuriating. But for the performance of the brakes, this would perhaps be a deal breaker for me. I've tried both sintered metal and resin pads. Hard braking, light braking, everything in between. No difference. They squeal like banshees until they are well and truly hot and dried out (which only happens on the most severe downhill stops).

5) Some have advised that there is a mystical "bedding in" process that must be followed. I have had much conflicting advice on this, but don't really see how it is much different to just using the brakes. I also have absolutely no time for this level of stuffing about. Kind like the reason I won't use tubeless road tyres.

6) I replaced the front OEM resin pads after about 600km. They were more than 1/2 worn. I expect longer life from the new sintered pads. The sintered pads also seem to have better "bite", but both are compromised in the wet.

7) The return springs on the pistons and pads don't really seem strong enough. It sometimes takes a few seconds for the pads to clear the rotor after I release the brakes. Yes, my pistons might be dirty (after just 1000km!), but really, who needs this issue? I'd gladly put up with some more lever force for a more positive return.

All in all, I'm glad I went to discs for my all-road/winter bike due to better (but worse than expected) wet-weather performance and the fact I'm not wearing the rims, but on the basis of my experience, I would never contemplate discs for a "summer" carbon race bike that was going to see mainly fairweather riding. I just don't see that the upside is worth the compromises.
Chalk it up to user error. After about 200 DA disc bikes since the beginning of the year I have yet to hear back from anyone experiencing anything what you have. Squealing? You don't know how to clean your pads and rotors? Your wet weather performance is lacking because you think bedding in is something "mystical" and you "have absolutely no time for this level of stuffing about." What that tells me is that you should either learn how to do this properly, or bring it to somebody who does. Nice bike, btw.
 
Jun 30, 2012
1,300
0
0
Giuseppe Magnetico said:
winkybiker said:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/winkyintheuk/albums/72157665522087839

I've now got a month-or-so and over 1000km on my new Dura-ace disc-braked all-road bike (see link above). Here's my experience:

1) They work great in the dry. A bit better than my SR on Exalith-treated rims, but not much in it from a practical perspective, really.

2) They work OK in the wet, but once saturated, the initial bite is much worse than when they are dry. In the wet, once the water is cleared, they are better than my SR rim brakes, but I actually expected less performance drop-off in the wet from discs than what I am experiencing. This has been quite disappointing as wet-weather performance was what I was really after.

3) Clearances appear to be too tight in the calipers. Small bits of debris from wet roads seem to very commonly get lodged somewhere in the calipers, causing a scraping and pinging noise from the rotor. It's not the pads rubbing, as it never happens on dry roads, and is not related to braking. If I ride through a puddle, the noise is almost certain to start, and lasts for a few hundred metres before whatever was stuck eventually clears itself. Next puddle, it starts all over.

4) The deafening squealing of the pads in the wet is absolutely infuriating. But for the performance of the brakes, this would perhaps be a deal breaker for me. I've tried both sintered metal and resin pads. Hard braking, light braking, everything in between. No difference. They squeal like banshees until they are well and truly hot and dried out (which only happens on the most severe downhill stops).

5) Some have advised that there is a mystical "bedding in" process that must be followed. I have had much conflicting advice on this, but don't really see how it is much different to just using the brakes. I also have absolutely no time for this level of stuffing about. Kind like the reason I won't use tubeless road tyres.

6) I replaced the front OEM resin pads after about 600km. They were more than 1/2 worn. I expect longer life from the new sintered pads. The sintered pads also seem to have better "bite", but both are compromised in the wet.

7) The return springs on the pistons and pads don't really seem strong enough. It sometimes takes a few seconds for the pads to clear the rotor after I release the brakes. Yes, my pistons might be dirty (after just 1000km!), but really, who needs this issue? I'd gladly put up with some more lever force for a more positive return.

All in all, I'm glad I went to discs for my all-road/winter bike due to better (but worse than expected) wet-weather performance and the fact I'm not wearing the rims, but on the basis of my experience, I would never contemplate discs for a "summer" carbon race bike that was going to see mainly fairweather riding. I just don't see that the upside is worth the compromises.
Chalk it up to user error. After about 200 DA disc bikes since the beginning of the year I have yet to hear back from anyone experiencing anything what you have. Squealing? You don't know how to clean your pads and rotors? Your wet weather performance is lacking because you think bedding in is something "mystical" and you "have absolutely no time for this level of stuffing about." What that tells me is that you should either learn how to do this properly, or bring it to somebody who does. Nice bike, btw.
How often would you think I have to clean my pads and rotors? They instantly get covered in road gunk. It's been raining pretty much non-stop for the 4 weeks I've had the bike, and I'm out in it every day.
 
Apr 8, 2012
840
0
0
If grime is building up that fast did you bother to check if there's a hydro leak? Judging by your essay I wouldn't be surprised. But If not then dirt isn't your problem. You should be able to pack a ball of mud around the caliper and not lose any performance. What you did reveal point after point is that whoever set your bike up shouldn't anymore. All those compounding problems you listed are a result of a poor set up. If you set it up bring it somewhere and have them fix what you messed up. If a shop did it ask they get the brakes working properly or demand your money back and never go there again.
 
Jun 30, 2012
1,300
0
0
Giuseppe Magnetico said:
If grime is building up that fast did you bother to check if there's a hydro leak? Judging by your essay I wouldn't be surprised. But If not then dirt isn't your problem. You should be able to pack a ball of mud around the caliper and not lose any performance. What you did reveal point after point is that whoever set your bike up shouldn't anymore. All those compounding problems you listed are a result of a poor set up. If you set it up bring it somewhere and have them fix what you messed up. If a shop did it ask they get the brakes working properly or demand your money back and never go there again.
No, the grunge is from the road. Grit, leaves, water, oil, diesel etc. The usual crap that is on the road and sprayed around by tyres when it is wet. The rotors look perfectly clean (as they get scrubbed by the pads, of course). The resin pads I removed were also clean and looked good. Just worn. There's no hydro leak. The brakes are absolutely perfect in the dry, and once the water has been cleared in the wet. On a decent downhill stop, they dry out, grab better and shut up. It's the more minor slowing-down where they can't heat up and dry out that the noise is most bothersome.

I've googled about and still see conflicting advice on "bedding in". Hard stops, gentle stops, douse them with water and such. It really seems all over the place. Most of the advice seems to be focussed on that fact that when pads are new, the braking is poor until it is done. Yes, I experienced that. The first few applications took more lever force, but that reduced over time. That's not my issue. The braking is great in the dry. Examples I found of how to eliminate squealing seem to show dry brakes squealing. Mine don't do that.

Brakes were installed and set up by the guy that built the bike. He's very experienced and has been doing this for a living for years. Not some random shop guy with minimal training.
 
Apr 8, 2012
840
0
0
The combination of squealing and lack of wet weather performance is the result of your pads and rotors not being properly bedded in when set up. You need to start over. Take your rotors off and use fine sandpaper in a circular motion on both sides where the pads make contact. 250-300 grit. Remove the pads and sand them too, I'm sure they're glazed over as well as the rotors. You want to start with fresh pads and rotors, this is critical. After sanding clean with alcohol or automotive brake cleaner. When it's all ready to go again bed them in properly. Ride around doing about a dozen hard stops. Hard, don't drag. Our method has always been short sprints then hard enough braking to where you're almost locking both wheels.

By the way; credentialism means nothing. I know 18 year old rookie shop mechanics that can run circles around the old guys claiming a life of experience. So pardon, but tenure doesn't do anything for me.
 
Jun 30, 2012
1,300
0
0
Re:

Giuseppe Magnetico said:
The combination of squealing and lack of wet weather performance is the result of your pad and rotors not being properly bedded in when set up. You need to start over. Take your rotors off and use fine sandpaper in a circular motion on both sides where the pads make contact. 250-300 grit. Sandpaper the pads too, I'm sure they're glazed over as well as the rotors. Clean with alcohol or automotive brake cleaner. When it's all ready to go again bed them in properly. Ride around doing about a dozen hard stops. Hard, don't drag. Our method has always been short sprints then hard enough braking to where you're almost locking both wheels.

By the way; credentialism means nothing. I know 18 year old rookie shop mechanics that can run circles around the old guys claiming a life of experience. So pardon, but tenure doesn't do anything for me.
The guy who built the bike definitely knows what he's doing. But I'll take your advice and start over. I'll use your bedding in method of hard stops, (which is more or less how I "bedded in" the current pads) rather than the others that have been suggested. I've got a little loop that has a short downhill that I'll use for the hard stops. I'll let you know how I get on. Thanks.
 
Apr 8, 2012
840
0
0
I don't think he does. Otherwise you wouldn't be having these problems and revealing these set up inconsistencies on a forum with your review.

... and stop quoting everything, we're the only two people here right now. My scroll wheel needs new bearings.
 
Apr 8, 2012
840
0
0
Also, you don't need to incorporate hills into initial bedding in. Short sprints from a stop, and short hard braking. No need to get into descending speeds to do this. You'll just end up right back where you're at now.
 
Jun 30, 2012
1,300
0
0
OK, I'll do it exactly as you have suggested.

The overall set-up is fine, and Sam knows what he's doing. I'm going to assume it was ham-fisted bedding in on my part for now.

But apart from the bedding-in, what other aspects of the set-up would you be suspicious of? The calipers are bolted square and secure to the frame and fork. The hydraulics are fine. The discs are properly secured to the wheels and lined up correctly. It's all good quality stuff, and brand new. I've given the whole thing a hell of a work-out over the past month. Commuting in mostly very wet weather along a steep, hilly route (covered in fall debris) with hard downhill stops in quite a few places.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY

TRENDING THREADS