Discuss racing here???

[BroDeal]

Should we start discussing actual racing here? The other forum has become a bit of a joke. After reading a post my first instinct is often to respond. The I realize that the whole thread will be quickly buried on page two under a cavalcade of dupe posts and Armstrong love. I stop myself from posting because it is not worth wasting the time to respond if there will be no follow-up discussion.

Then there is news like McQuaid will be running unopposed. That thread garnered only a handful of posts before it was buried. It is also a subject that cannot be discussed without mentioning the implications it has on doping.

There are also a lot of troll posts in the other forum by people who are taking delight in taunting the reality based crowd, knowing that they cannot respond. They refust to come here to discuss the issues, so it is a one sided situation.

I have noticed several posts by older members saying that they are thinking of taking a couple weeks off until the Tour is over.

Pro Cycling Uncensored??

 

[blackcat]

hopefully all hope is lost by then, and they take their chalk and clean up the road after them.

 

[Bala Verde]

I like it.

Just to kick it off with some discussion point:

We have seen last year's TdF with the likes of Ricco, Kohl, Piepoli and when I saw it, and some commentators on 'european' channels, they expressed their astonishment in rather veiled terms. "I can't believe it, that's, ..erm.. amazing, what a power, what a climber, what an acceleration" etc. Does anyone think we'll see some of that in the next couple of days, or will riders have 'learned' from last year(s) and try to show off less?

 

[BroDeal]

I like it.

Just to kick it off with some discussion point:

We have seen last year's TdF with the likes of Ricco, Kohl, Piepoli and when I saw it, and some commentators on 'european' channels, they expressed their astonishment in rather veiled terms. "I can't believe it, that's, ..erm.. amazing, what a power, what a climber, what an acceleration" etc. Does anyone think we'll see some of that in the next couple of days, or will riders have 'learned' from last year(s) and try to show off less?

Mind if I start a new thread about this??

 

[BigBoat]

I believe the average cycling fan and the average rider do not care if the riders dope or if the dont. The average person does not realize the implications because they have never doped or raced before.

 

[forty four]

im a racing cyclist i find the deep hatred for armstrong a bit misguided but whatever thats the internet for you.

 

[boalio]

I'm staying away from the forum until after the tour. I love a good heated discussion, and nothing more than witty Lance bashing but the forum has turned in to a school yard, and is full of people who i have never seen before trying to own threads. And newbs asking the stupidest Lance questions. I just wince after I read those, because i can just see the hiding that they are about to get.

i think it's funny that it used to be the people who spoke about doping used to get all the abuse, now this forum has turned out to be the most mature section of the site!

 

[slowoldman]

I don't know, but here's an idea. Why don't you help those Lance fans to see others in the sport. I know, all of you started out with all the knowledge you possess now right? Instead of constantly downgrading their favorite rider (even if it is Armstrong) why not point out others? You know what, it might just bring another "real" fan to cycling. But if all you do is call them names and act superior to them, you will run them off. Maybe you all like cycling being a fringe sport? Don't want to sell out to the public now, do we? You know one thing I don't understand about this forum is the abject hatred for Armstrong, you all want Contador (who himself possesses a dubious history) to throttle him. Are you trading one doper for another? (Since this is the doping forum) What about A Schleck, another favorite? Do you think he is clean? Sastre? (well, he may be cleaner than others) Give me a break, they all are on the gear still......right? That is the general consensus here.

You know I like riding/racing my bike and I enjoy professional racing for what it is. I long for a clean sport to follow (as those who have read my posts regarding cheating will already know) but am a realist in seeing it will more than likely never be. Enjoy the sport, encourage others to enjoy it also. Cheer when any doper gets caught, until then let people root for their favorites and some good natured ribbing is fine, but outright attacks are ridiculous. It just might make for a better place here.

See you all in the racing discussion forum. You guys can enjoy your technical talk about doping and doping products. I have one question, is it going to change anything in the pro ranks? I don't believe so, therefore I choose not to clutter my gray matter with it.

 

[marinoni]

You got that right!

I'm staying away from the forum until after the tour. I love a good heated discussion, and nothing more than witty Lance bashing but the forum has turned in to a school yard, and is full of people who i have never seen before trying to own threads. And newbs asking the stupidest Lance questions. I just wince after I read those, because i can just see the hiding that they are about to get.

i think it's funny that it used to be the people who spoke about doping used to get all the abuse, now this forum has turned out to be the most mature section of the site!

Thank You!!

 

[BroDeal]

I don't know, but here's an idea. Why don't you help those Lance fans to see others in the sport.

You go in there and try to teach them something. All I see is little information content and a lot of non-stop name calling. The posters who started threads about defects with the TTT found themselves being called whingers by a bunch of Lance Lovers who are delighted their guy came out on top.

 

[slowoldman]

You go in there and try to teach them something. All I see is little information content and a lot of non-stop name calling. The posters who started threads about defects with the TTT found themselves being called whingers by a bunch of Lance Lovers who are delighted their guy came out on top.

You refuse to see the name calling on the other side, or you encourage it. By the way, I thought the TTT course was pretty good. I would have loved to have ridden it. Of course, they're delighted their guy came out on top. You will be delighted when he is dropped in the mountains and have said as much. How do you differ from them in that regard? You also refer to them as fanboys and Lance Lovers ^, so they respond with whiners and "haters". Pot meet kettle.

 

[unsheath]

You know one thing I don't understand about this forum is the abject hatred for Armstrong, you all want Contador (who himself possesses a dubious history) to throttle him. Are you trading one doper for another? (Since this is the doping forum) What about A Schleck, another favorite? Do you think he is clean? Sastre? (well, he may be cleaner than others) Give me a break, they all are on the gear still......right? That is the general consensus here.

What's so difficult to understand? He's gained the most out of any rider in history through PEDs has too many dubious connections and loose ends to mention. Comparing him to a Schleck is like comparing a serial killer to your school yard bully. If his accomplishments were because of his superior genetics and 'harder training', fair play, but we all know it isn't. Anyway this has been done Ad nauseum and doesnt need to be repeated here.

As for educating these new posters goes, some are more open minded than others. Unfortunately those who dominate the boards are often uneducated (in cycling terms) and suffer from severe myopia and blind lance patriotism. That's something you're unlikely to change. If they love cycling, hopefully they can seek out the answers themselves, as many of us have independently.

As for me, Im just glad the stench of Lance love is gone from here, at least temporarily.

 

[BigBoat]

im a racing cyclist i find the deep hatred for armstrong a bit misguided but whatever thats the internet for you.

Elaborate...

The posters who started threads about defects with the TTT found themselves being called whingers by a bunch of Lance Lovers who are delighted their guy came out on top.

Ironic...If the TT was on a strait freeway Lances team would probably have won by even more!

 

[Franklin]

You go in there and try to teach them something. All I see is little information content and a lot of non-stop name calling. The posters who started threads about defects with the TTT found themselves being called whingers by a bunch of Lance Lovers who are delighted their guy came out on top.

LMAO... and you guys let me and others out there to fight these loonies. I even am trying to explain that Olano was indeed one of the best TT specialists of his era, not a "bad TT guy with one great day".

 

[BroDeal]

LMAO... and you guys let me and others out there to fight these loonies. I even am trying to explain that Olano was indeed one of the best TT specialists of his era, not a "bad TT guy with one great day".

Sorry to leave you hanging, bro, but I have been busy the last few days and have not been able to post much. When I got a chance to look at the forum there were fifty million Armstrong/Astana threads. It was too daunting to wade through all the crap. I did see the tea baggers beating you up pretty good for innocuous comments, which did not have anything to do with Armstrong, about the TTT course.

 

[Amsterhammer]

You refuse to see the name calling on the other side, or you encourage it. By the way, I thought the TTT course was pretty good. I would have loved to have ridden it. Of course, they're delighted their guy came out on top. You will be delighted when he is dropped in the mountains and have said as much. How do you differ from them in that regard? You also refer to them as fanboys and Lance Lovers ^, so they respond with whiners and "haters". Pot meet kettle.

Absolutely spot on.

The hate/dope brigade is so blinded by their own sense of smug superiority that they cannot accept any opinion that doesn't coincide with their own. If you don't openly bash Lance and accept that everyone is doped then you must be a three week fanboy who has never sat on a bike and who knows nothing.

The arrogance exhibited by the hate brigade towards posters who may not be as well informed as they are is also staggering. This is an open forum on the web! By definition, it will attract all sorts of people. The situation we have now is that any new posters joining up who don't immediately join the Lance bashing crowd are pigeon-holed and dismissed by the hate boys, who generally react in an arrogant, hectoring and bullying manner to anyone they see as 'inferior' in knowledge or understanding. These people, a number of whom are well represented here, should either STFU or go off and find or start another forum exclusively populated by ex-racers, active racers, doping experts and other people who share their own points of view, and who hold the same inflated opinions of their own intelligence. Just because someone has never raced does not deny them the right to express an opinion. You're supposed to 'discuss' on a forum, not just 'talk down' at people who disagree with you or who don't have your own vast experience. You also should not constantly lecture, insult, and brow-beat them, which is what has been constantly going on.

The comment here that the fanboys are the only ones 'defending' the TTT, while the sensible hateboys are the only ones to understand that it was a complete waste of time, is indicative of the type of ludicrous up your own *** thinking that makes many posters here look like complete idiots to those of us who are able to exercise a bit of objectivity.

So yes, I think you superior know-it-alls should stay in here, and leave all of us know-nothing plebs to stew in our own ignorance in the main forum.

 

[rolfrae]

I thought the splitting of the forums was misguided. It's like the way the UCI wants to run cycling, just having this shiny veneer over the problems to attract an audience and sponsors and not letting anyone delve below it to question why certain riders can be performing the way they are.

 

[El Imbatido]

You know what would be good. If the cyclenews forums were like the forums of Gamefaqs (yes i used to play my Super Nintendo when i were a wee little boy). The forums are based on Karma. You get 1 karma for everyday you log on. There are certain boards where you can only post once you have X karma.

Now that would be good around here. A place to get away from certain people.


Sorry to hijack thread. But this sort of seemed the place to put it. Seeming how we were complaining about boards, threads etc.

 

[Cobblestones]

Discuss racing here? I like it. I come from the cyclingforums and I liked the style there. No separation of cycling and doping there, and not overmoderated. Unfortunately that admin was practically absent for a couple of years, so people lost interest, and spammers destroyed the rest. Now steve has upgraded the thing just in time for the TdF, but it might be too late to attract people back.

I thought splitting off doping and general discussions from the race discussion was a mistake here. And still, the frantic pace of posting in the main section hasn't abated. I'd love to discuss racing without constant self-censoring. We should try. Not clear how the mods would see it. I would be fine with two sections: 'race discussion w/o doping' and 'race discussion w doping'. Everybody could go to whichever section they prefer and we'll see which is more popular in the long run.

 

[Escarabajo]

. I just wince after I read those, because i can just see the hiding that they are about to get.

I sure hope so. Otherwise we will not be able to get out of this side of the fence.

 

[elapid]

Slowoldman and Amsterhammer, I feel for you guys. I believe many of us are arbitrarily labelled lovers or haters when most of us don't believe that strongly either way. I would probably be labelled a hater, although I am not. I believe Lance doped, I am disappointed by his support of the Omerta, and the public image of his personality is very arrogant, controlling and unlikable. However, he is very determined and successful, he has done a great deal to promote cycling in the US and elsewhere, and his support of cancer causes is laudable (no matter how much is for profit). I honestly did not think that Astana would do so well in the TTT because I thought that there were too many captains and the team would be divided. I was wrong. I would like to think I can express my opinions on Lance, or anyone else, and not be labelled as a hater or a lover because of which side my opinions lie.

In regards to why Lance is so maligned compared to the likes of Contador, I think you need to look at his history and personality. Historically, he won the Tour of Redemption (1999) which was meant to be the dope-free tour after the Festina Affair. When the EPO positives became known from the 1999 TdF, this made a mockery of the so-called Tour of Redemption. Contador was never in a similar situation: he was one of 50+ riders implicated in OP and, by this stage, most people accepted doping was rife within the peloton. One of the strongest criticisms of Lance is his open support of the Omerta (Bassons, Simeoni, etc), and Contador has never done anything like Armstrong has in this regard. As far as Lance's wins go, they tended to be clinical and monotonous (and rather boring). Contador has more of the European style and panache, and his wins have either been exciting (TdF) or extraordinary (Giro). Lastly, Lance is brash and arrogant, and Contador is not. In Australia, we have something called the tall poppy syndrome. Whether it be deliberate or not, tall poppies are cut down to size. No one really wants to cut an affable guy like Contador down to size because he is just nice and unassuming, but there are no problems with people with Lance's personality because it is just so easy and desirable to want them to be brought down a notch or two. The same thing is happening with Cavendish at the moment as well. It doesn't make it right or wrong, its just a personality thing.

 

[Escarabajo]

I would probably be labelled a hater, although I am not. I believe Lance doped, I am disappointed by his support of the Omerta, and the public image of his personality is very arrogant, controlling and unlikable. However, he is very determined and successful, he has done a great deal to promote cycling in the US and elsewhere, and his support of cancer causes is laudable (no matter how much is for profit).

+1........................

I honestly did not think that Astana would do so well in the TTT because I thought that there were too many captains and the team would be divided. I was wrong.

Actually I thought they were going to win. And so far everything has gone as expected if it wasn't for the stage with the cross winds in which Contador and other GC contenders lost time.

I would like to think I can express my opinions on Lance, or anyone else, and not be labelled as a hater or a lover because of which side my opinions lie.
.

+1....................

My rider fared well in the TTT. But I am opposed to the TTT having real time gaps. I expressed my opinion in the forum, but I don't want to be labelled as a hater just because I don't agree with the new TTT rules. It is stupid.

Good Post Elapid.

 

[180mmCrank]

You know what would be good. If the cyclenews forums were like the forums of Gamefaqs (yes i used to play my Super Nintendo when i were a wee little boy). The forums are based on Karma. You get 1 karma for everyday you log on. There are certain boards where you can only post once you have X karma.

Now that would be good around here. A place to get away from certain people.


Sorry to hijack thread. But this sort of seemed the place to put it. Seeming how we were complaining about boards, threads etc.

That sounds like a great idea...I imagine some folk would do a work around... but it might actually mean that those that know what they are talking about or had atleast taken the timeto read the thread before they posted.

And I agree the other part of this forum is almost unusable - I have almost given up - it's a shame.



Mmm gives me something to think about

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I like the idea of this thread, and completely sympathize with BroDeal. I think he and I joined pretty close to Day 1, and both of us have over 1,000 posts. Not sure if anyone else has broken that mark yet, but I know other die-hards have been here just as long, and probably lament what's happened to the main board as much as we do.

I saw the same thing happen to CF. Made like one post there in the last two years.

Great post Elapid, I completely agree.

I'd like to think a lot of the three-week posters won't even come here, because there is so much talk about doping - and rightfully so, look at the name of the thread. But also because doping is the harsh, but very true reality of the sport. A lot of them don't want to face that reality, and don't have anywhere near the knowledge some of us do on the topic, and trying to dispute or comment gets them their asss handed to them real quick.

 

[slowoldman]

Elapid, thank you. Good post. I understand your post regarding Armstrongs attitude. Quite frankly I agree, but I can seperate that from respecting him as a good, and contrary to most people's opinions, exciting cyclist.

Alpe, I really don't get your point. Who cares about post count, that sounds ridiculous. If Eddy himself came in and joined he would have a lot lower post count than you and BroDeal. And yet, I doubt you would argue your abundant cycling intellect is more developed than his, maybe you would. Your post count entitles you to no feelings of superiority. You guys need to realize that. (You all possess the Armstrong attitude towards new posters, how ironic is that!) That is the problem you all create with the three week posters. They respond to you in the same manner you interact with them.

I am under no illusions about doping, I understand it is rampant in the sport that we follow. I don't need to know the details of how to do it, how they do it or anything else about doing it for that matter. As I have said before, I believe the people that do, are either looking to do it, have done it or do it presently and don't think there is anything wrong with it. (BigBoat) What utter lunacy!

I hope ALL dopers are caught eventually, even Lance Armstrong (gasp!) if he is indeed doping. All non convicted riders are entitled to the claim of being clean until caught. Please read above before you accuse me of holding him in some high regard. I will point out the hypocrisy of your position yet again. You believe all (BigBoat) or most (the majority of this forum) professional cyclists are on PED's. So, to most here, they are all cheating. Don't give me this A Schleck is less of a cheat than Armstrong, by definition he isn't. (in response to unsheath). They are both cheaters....if they dope.

So to answer your final assertion, I don't mind facing reality, in fact I believe my opinions are firmly planted in it. As I have said before, I admit ignorance when it comes to the details of knowing the what, how and why of PED's and I really don't want to discuss that in a Road Racing Forum (so you guys enjoy this forum, I will be in the RR in the future), most definitely not because I am afraid of getting my a** handed to me.