Do The Old Favourites Get a Pass

[tifosa]

So why was it okay for them [ed. riders of the past] and not for the newer riders what is the difference between Landis and Roche, Armstrong and Hinault and Merckx and Ullrich?

To get back to the original question: It's not okay. They are all cheats. Full stop.

Doesn't matter what they used, or what era they used "it."

 

[md2020]

Most clean freaks would DNF but I wont leave it out that they could still hang. Bassons didnt use epo.

I understand what you're saying in terms of clean riders not being able to finish the TdF in this modern doping era, but I still don't see what your point is specifically with Lance. It seems that you are arguing that blood doping somehow helped Lance more than the rest of the peleton and that if blood doping didn't exists at all that he would be a complete washout. Something like, if Lance's career was 10 years earlier (pre EPO) then he wouldn't have finished or even T-50 the tour. I don't agree.

BTW, I don't think he was clean.

 

[Nevermind]

I understand what you're saying in terms of clean riders not being able to finish the TdF in this modern doping era, but I still don't see what your point is specifically with Lance. It seems that you are arguing that blood doping somehow helped Lance more than the rest of the peleton and that if blood doping didn't exists at all that he would be a complete washout. Something like, if Lance's career was 10 years earlier (pre EPO) then he wouldn't have finished or even T-50 the tour. I don't agree.

BTW, I don't think he was clean.

Basically, I think that what BigBoat is implying is that some guys respond better to PEDs than others. Lance being one of those few guys. Otherwise, the peloton would be pretty even. And I really don't think it has anything to do with talent at that point.

 

[slcbiker]

This is a very strange thread. I wouldn't say the old guys get a pass anymore than the new guys.
But cycling has had doping about as long as there has been racing. Read a Dog in a Hat by Joe Parkin if you want to get a good view of late 80's early 90's doping. Certainly amphetamines could have a pretty significant impact on performance, hard to say if as much as EPO. The perfomance impact I've seen mentioned for EPO has been 5-10% not 20.
Beyond that, alot of blather to little point. I don't necessarily think Lance was clean, but it is pretty clear that a lot of the top riders were doping. No reason one way or another to say that it worked better for Lance. He was doing well in triathalons as a teenager.
Beyond that, I'd feel less like Lemond was a whiner if he picked on someone besides Lance. Or if he had started complaining more seriously about drugs while he was still riding and actually named names.
Funny how so many of these riders only come out against doping after they are caught (David Millar) or retired, and even then they don't really name people.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

seen mentioned for EPO has been 5-10% not 20.

Suggest you read this article.

Otherwise I agree with you. A lot of blather as you say.

 

[Leopejo]

Suggest you read this article.
Thanks for the read.

 

[rhubroma]

Exactly. I've always looked at it in terms of an inertia. In the 30's we saw the intro of amphetamines. In the 60's anabolic steroids and autologous blood transfusions, in the 80's testosterone, in the 90's EPO...etc., etc.

In short it has been an ARMS WAR!

When I first raced in Italy in 95, I was first introduced to the concept of la bomba (a bomb). "You need to take la bomba to win" I was told. Since the "Oil for Drugs" campaign here in Italy many amatuer riders I was competing with have been banned from competition, one was even placed under house arrest for drug traficing!

Yes Dimspace has been incredibly naive. Cycling has been, and not begining in the 90's as some people believe, doped to its teeth. And, yes, the majority of continental Euro fans have always known about it and couldn't care less.

I think what has happened, though, since the Lemond era is that cycling has first tried to win a US fan base and then tried to become Global. The US (but also Australia's, South Africa's, in short the Anglo-Saxon colonial world and even perhaps England itself) mentality based as it is upon a protestant and calvanist work ethic is both more naive and puritanical than continental Europe's (based on a Latin and romance culture, which is both more cynical, anti-puritain and in many ways pagan) and thus can't tollarate how widespread doping is in cycling. My theory, though, could also be extended to all protestant cultures (versus Catholic ones) in Europe. And even if France and Italy (but not Spain) have taken seriously anti-doping, it is only a reflection of cycling becoming "Global" and not of it's own natural tendency. Indeed it was the Italian Olimpic Comitee which, and using public funds, financed EPO research in the 80's to see the effects on athletic performance in the hopes of giving it's athletes an edge. Moser was the first cyclist to be injected with the stuff. And this has all been documented. Indeed the Italain Geweis-Balan was the first pro team to practice organized EPO doping in the peleton.

It's no surprise that there has been a direct corrolation between anti-doping and cyclings arrival in the Anglo-Saxon cultures. In other words, if it had remained a romance baced continental Euro affair, where people are generally in the know and also generally couldn't care less, I doubt anti-doping would have become the issue it has since the sport has entered (tried to win over, despite the negative publicity) the protestant and puritanical cultures if the Anglo-Protestant cultures. This is only my theory.

But I can honestly say that here, in Italy, la bomba mentality continues to reign supreme.

 

[rhubroma]

And as far as Coppi-Bartali era goes, it's like comparing and putting on the same level Ancient Roman Emperors moving ancient Egyptian obelisks back to Rome as war trophies, and post-Enlightenment England taking the Elgin Marbles from the Parthenon in Athans back to the British museum in the XIX century.

Modern Egypt would find it pointless to ask modern Italy for the obelisks back, though contemporary Greece can (and has) make a good case in asking the Pathenon reliefs back from contemporary Englend. Yet both are forms of plundering...

 

[franciep10]

Okay the reason I started this thread was to showcase the bias in cycling, now we all know that most of the riders from the 50s -present day used some type of performance enhancers, now while Merckx is one of my favourite riders, I know he cheated, now some people on this thread have basically stated that it's okay to cheat a little, but that's utter bull ****, it's not okay cheating is cheating no matter what whether you're writing answers in your hand before a test or bringing the the whole book in the exam. I have asked this this question before and only one person has answered me so far, Twenty years time when a brand new drug comes out that gives bigger gains than epo, are these riders going to be treated the same way that the riders of the past are treated.

 

[rhubroma]

Okay the reason I started this thread was to showcase the bias in cycling, now we all know that most of the riders from the 50s -present day used some type of performance enhancers, now while Merckx is one of my favourite riders, I know he cheated, now some people on this thread have basically stated that it's okay to cheat a little, but that's utter bull ****, it's not okay cheating is cheating no matter what whether you're writing answers in your hand before a test or bringing the the whole book in the exam. I have asked this this question before and only one person has answered me so far, Twenty years time when a brand new drug comes out that gives bigger gains than epo, are these riders going to be treated the same way that the riders of the past are treated.

I don't see things in as absolute terms as you do. Sure, cheating is dishonest, but I wonder at times what constitutes "cheating" when, in the case of pro cycling, nearly everyone is envolved from the riders to the coaches, to the medics, etc.

I mean if that's how the game is played (whether we like it or not) and it is, then judgments need to be made relative to a number of co-related factors, which puts the very notion of "cheating" up for interpretation.

Having said that, I find the reality of the situation in cycling unhappy and unfortunate. Most unfortunate indeed.

 

[BroDeal]

The perfomance impact I've seen mentioned for EPO has been 5-10% not 20.

Research usually gives a Vo2Max increase of 8 - 15%, but that research has its limits. First, like all such experiments, the researchers try to isolate the independent variable. Thus the increase that is possible by use of combinations of drugs is unknown. Second, researchers have to abide by ethical standards. They should not risk the health of the test subjects, so there are limits to the how high a hematocrit they would allow in their subjects. Those limits are probably much lower than the crazy stuff that was going on after the early nineties when riders were taking blood thinners to prevent themselves from dying in their sleep.

Also research has shown an increase to time to exhaustion of 50% for EPO. The advantage to be gained by such an increase in many situations of bike racing would be simply incredible.

Reportedly Dr. Ferrari has promised gains of more than 20% to his clients.

 

[Escarabajo]

Suggest you read this article.

Otherwise I agree with you. A lot of blather as you say.

Thanks Alpe. Excellent reading. I am a little late with this post but I still want to communicate my opinion.

I was rather naive in this matter, but somehow I get the feeling that >90% of the peloton, including the clean riders (Cunego, French Teams, etc) must be in some kind of HGH and testosterone regimen. It is logical that these two drugs do not scare the average person into taking them.

 

[rhubroma]

Thanks Alpe. Excellent reading. I am a little late with this post but I still want to communicate my opinion.

I was rather naive in this matter, but somehow I get the feeling that >90% of the peloton, including the clean riders (Cunego, French Teams, etc) must be in some kind of HGH and testosterone regimen. It is logical that these two drugs do not scare the average person into taking them.

Eureka!!!!