Does anyone wonder?

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Jul 10, 2009
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Wondering some more...Tooth infection excuse

I find this excuse so common amongst top cyclists that I have to wonder. Don't they have enough money to see the best dentists?? I remember that excuse from AndyS last year, this year its Gilbert, Cavendish has used it. I am not buying it all. I don't hear this excuse in soccer or golf etc. Just too common in cycling especially the top ones that it seems fishy.
 
gilbert can give as many excuses as he wants this season, the fact is in 2009 he won a classic and a monument, in 2010 he won another classic and a monument+ 2 GT stages and 1 week in the leaders jersey, and in 2011 he won 1 monument, 1 GT stage, 2 classics and 2 semi classics.

far from being the one hit wonder you say he is.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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Fact is, we had several decades of observable behavior in regards to how the top cyclists performed. Top riders were very often "contenders" all season long. They might not stay on as "top" riders forever, but the top-end of a results list usually contained our top riders, along with the sporadic "good day" from the lesser riders.

Then EPO and O2 vector drugs came along. And now, we have a situation that reminds me more of American Idol than pro cycling.

As Chris Rock said: "Here today, gone TODAY!"
 
Apr 14, 2011
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re: Gilbert, in the last Real Peloton podcast it was implied that he is involved in the Ferrari investigation. Allegedly Menchov and Rujano are in trouble as well (although they didn't connect Rujano to Ferrari). Apparently Rendell has some inside info from an Italian source... we shall see if anything comes of it. Here's the link to the podcast: http://www.realpeloton.com/

Be warned, it is very rambling.
 
Caruut said:
36th at the Giro in '09, and 2nd in British Nats TT in '10.

I am aware that he's a one-hit wonder, just think that claiming he never had any ability before is a bit unfair to the guy.

He had ability before, but nothing LIKE he showed at that Vuelta. Before the Vuelta, he had managed about three top 10s in mountain stages in his career - a lower end of the top 10 in the Brixia Tour, an uphill sprint in Romandie, and Mont Faron in the Tour Med back in about 2008.

People were actually using his performance in the 2008 Alpe d'Huez stage and being in the favourites bunch at the bottom of the Alpe as evidence that it wasn't surprising to see him suddenly ripping the legs off much more highly-rated prospects and established GT contenders. You know who else was in that bunch? Johan van Summeren. If Summie started getting on the front halfway up a mountain and shed all the contenders whilst still having enough energy to keep drilling it to the line, then do it again the next day, then attack at the finish two days later, then start sprinting for bonus seconds, then you bet we'd be calling it as the BS that it is.
 
Mongol_Waaijer said:
As an ex racer myself I have always been very suspicious of guys who race very little, having perhaps shown little form earlier in the season, who then show up at a certain time and rip everyone's legs off, after weeks spent just "training".

Training doesn't build the top end speed that gives you "form", and there is no better way to build fitness than blocks of racing followed by good recovery. The less I raced, or the fewer races I finished, the worse my form got - the more likely i was to get dropped and so forth.....and all training did was tire me out and dull my speed.

I also laugh at guys like Andy Schleck who are useless all spring, and then emerge as a strong tour contender. Not wanting to get too technical it seems his FTP increases by more than 100w in the weeks leading up to the tour - yet any racer will tell you the numbers hardly vary anything like that much, even after a winter break. The guys who are the best in July, should be among the best at anytime on terrain that suits them unless they have had serious time off, or are injured or sick. "Form" is not much more than some extra watts and a little less pain for the big efforts - not a ridiculous increase in power and performance that takes them from dropping off the back to zooming off the front.

His Sociopathic Majesty and Bruyneel started all this BS with his "peaking" fraud of course, and it now seems ironed into popular consciousness that a rider can have such a ridiculous peak in form when they plan it carefully.

Fwiw i haven't raced for 3 years, and last year rode my bike for a few hours about 10 times. This year I have had 2 rides, and yesterday on my old training route I came within 10% of my old training numbers when I was semi-pro, and that's just on running 3 x a week. Sure I am more tired afterwards, and after 2 hrs I was cooked - but guys like Schleck expect you to believe that despite riding 20hrs a week + every week their form can somehow improve way beyond what I lost after 3 years of hardly touching the bike.

It's a farce.

I partly agree. Some folks are slower responders than others and have more variability depending on their focus in the season, so I do not think everything is quite as simple as you suggest. This said, we are talking about changes in certain aspects of your riding.

I agree that massive changes when somene is at the elite level are more than a bit silly. If you have a good VO2, FTP and aero position (in other words, you are good at time trialing), then your time trialing should be good to great all of the time, with perhaps changes in endurance or peak power. But I agree that to go from terrible to top 15 is a pretty lonnnnnnngggg stretch of the imagination.
 
Oct 30, 2011
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Hmm. I think I was wrong about his results.

I just don't quite buy the "donkey to racehorse via dope" story with Froome. Yes, it was 2nd place in a GT, but quite frankly, 2011 was not a race that did the Vuelta's history justice.

I would say that in ever year from 2007-10, the 3rd-placed rider was better than Cobo. I think that says a lot about just what Froome's result means.
 
On Froome:

this article was published recently & I truly believe this so called "illness" has become an smoking screen for him to hide something:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/froome-still-battling-parasitic-infection

I cannot conceive the idea of a Professional Athlete having this serious health issue-specially related to "blood"-and somehow manage to peak & perform at the highest level like nothing ever happened to him-because you'll remember this post when we get to see Wiggo & Froome riding side by side & putting a nasty tempo in the mountains......
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Caruut said:
Hmm. I think I was wrong about his results.

I just don't quite buy the "donkey to racehorse via dope" story with Froome. Yes, it was 2nd place in a GT, but quite frankly, 2011 was not a race that did the Vuelta's history justice.

I would say that in ever year from 2007-10, the 3rd-placed rider was better than Cobo. I think that says a lot about just what Froome's result means.

Still climb times were at the suspicious level whereas they weren't in the tour. The guy had rarely finished top 10 in very low level races on mountains, same with TTs and then as a contract is nearly up...2nd in a GT.
 
Caruut said:
Hmm. I think I was wrong about his results.

I just don't quite buy the "donkey to racehorse via dope" story with Froome. Yes, it was 2nd place in a GT, but quite frankly, 2011 was not a race that did the Vuelta's history justice.

I would say that in ever year from 2007-10, the 3rd-placed rider was better than Cobo. I think that says a lot about just what Froome's result means.

you don't think Kash would have beaten Cobo? :confused:
 
Mongol_Waaijer said:
As an ex racer myself I have always been very suspicious of guys who race very little, having perhaps shown little form earlier in the season, who then show up at a certain time and rip everyone's legs off, after weeks spent just "training".

Training doesn't build the top end speed that gives you "form", and there is no better way to build fitness than blocks of racing followed by good recovery. The less I raced, or the fewer races I finished, the worse my form got - the more likely i was to get dropped and so forth.....and all training did was tire me out and dull my speed.

I also laugh at guys like Andy Schleck who are useless all spring, and then emerge as a strong tour contender. Not wanting to get too technical it seems his FTP increases by more than 100w in the weeks leading up to the tour - yet any racer will tell you the numbers hardly vary anything like that much, even after a winter break. The guys who are the best in July, should be among the best at anytime on terrain that suits them unless they have had serious time off, or are injured or sick. "Form" is not much more than some extra watts and a little less pain for the big efforts - not a ridiculous increase in power and performance that takes them from dropping off the back to zooming off the front.

His Sociopathic Majesty and Bruyneel started all this BS with his "peaking" fraud of course, and it now seems ironed into popular consciousness that a rider can have such a ridiculous peak in form when they plan it carefully.

Fwiw i haven't raced for 3 years, and last year rode my bike for a few hours about 10 times. This year I have had 2 rides, and yesterday on my old training route I came within 10% of my old training numbers when I was semi-pro, and that's just on running 3 x a week. Sure I am more tired afterwards, and after 2 hrs I was cooked - but guys like Schleck expect you to believe that despite riding 20hrs a week + every week their form can somehow improve way beyond what I lost after 3 years of hardly touching the bike.

It's a farce.

Well, not to discredit your personal experiences, but I suppose it's at least possible that a rider like Armstrong or Andy Schleck with all the ressources available to them (not talking about doping, but constant supervision of all physical data by coaching and medical professionals) can train more effeciently and more to-a-specific-date than even a knowledgable semi-pro, don't you think?

I don't like it either, and I don't believe they are clean, but I also don't think you can reduce it to just doping.
 
hfer07 said:
On Froome:

this article was published recently & I truly believe this so called "illness" has become an smoking screen for him to hide something:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/froome-still-battling-parasitic-infection

I cannot conceive the idea of a Professional Athlete having this serious health issue-specially related to "blood"-and somehow manage to peak & perform at the highest level like nothing ever happened to him-because you'll remember this post when we get to see Wiggo & Froome riding side by side & putting a nasty tempo in the mountains......
Either he's caught it, recovered from it, then caught it again (which would be terrible luck), or it was dormant just long enough for him to nearly win a GT when his contract was due. Very lucky for him, as if it hadn't cleared up for that few weeks, he might have been let go by Sky, whereas now he's been able to podium a GT, contribute to Cavendish's World Championship and sign a lucrative new contract at a much better rate than he would have been on previously. If he was still suffering from bilharzia when he put in those rides, then they're even more incredible (depending on your point of view which definition of that word you want to choose).
 
Libertine Seguros said:
Either he's caught it, recovered from it, then caught it again (which would be terrible luck), or it was dormant just long enough for him to nearly win a GT when his contract was due. Very lucky for him, as if it hadn't cleared up for that few weeks, he might have been let go by Sky, whereas now he's been able to podium a GT, contribute to Cavendish's World Championship and sign a lucrative new contract at a much better rate than he would have been on previously. If he was still suffering from bilharzia when he put in those rides, then they're even more incredible (depending on your point of view which definition of that word you want to choose).

You know you're allowed to just say it in this forum, right?
 
Libertine Seguros said:
Either he's caught it, recovered from it, then caught it again (which would be terrible luck), or it was dormant just long enough for him to nearly win a GT when his contract was due. Very lucky for him, as if it hadn't cleared up for that few weeks, he might have been let go by Sky, whereas now he's been able to podium a GT, contribute to Cavendish's World Championship and sign a lucrative new contract at a much better rate than he would have been on previously. If he was still suffering from bilharzia when he put in those rides, then they're even more incredible (depending on your point of view which definition of that word you want to choose).

This is just ****ing disgusting.

I've been coming to the clinic for years to read misanthropic rants about evil doping *******s, and there's always some smart **** who thinks they're so much more ingenuous than everyone else.

If you want to post this sort of hatefull post where you just accept explanations for OBVIOUS CHEATING, then take it to the pro-racing forum.

Just sickening.
 
Jul 14, 2009
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Mongol_Waaijer said:
As an ex racer myself I have always been very suspicious of guys who race very little, having perhaps shown little form earlier in the season, who then show up at a certain time and rip everyone's legs off, after weeks spent just "training".

Training doesn't build the top end speed that gives you "form", and there is no better way to build fitness than blocks of racing followed by good recovery. The less I raced, or the fewer races I finished, the worse my form got - the more likely i was to get dropped and so forth.....and all training did was tire me out and dull my speed.

I also laugh at guys like Andy Schleck who are useless all spring, and then emerge as a strong tour contender. Not wanting to get too technical it seems his FTP increases by more than 100w in the weeks leading up to the tour - yet any racer will tell you the numbers hardly vary anything like that much, even after a winter break. The guys who are the best in July, should be among the best at anytime on terrain that suits them unless they have had serious time off, or are injured or sick. "Form" is not much more than some extra watts and a little less pain for the big efforts - not a ridiculous increase in power and performance that takes them from dropping off the back to zooming off the front.

His Sociopathic Majesty and Bruyneel started all this BS with his "peaking" fraud of course, and it now seems ironed into popular consciousness that a rider can have such a ridiculous peak in form when they plan it carefully.

Fwiw i haven't raced for 3 years, and last year rode my bike for a few hours about 10 times. This year I have had 2 rides, and yesterday on my old training route I came within 10% of my old training numbers when I was semi-pro, and that's just on running 3 x a week. Sure I am more tired afterwards, and after 2 hrs I was cooked - but guys like Schleck expect you to believe that despite riding 20hrs a week + every week their form can somehow improve way beyond what I lost after 3 years of hardly touching the bike.

It's a farce.

as an ex racer myself..good start but..As a racer I found out lots of things ,the first is that almost nothing that a hobbyist does is similar to what a pro does. Also the "training" that people do at almost every level of amateur bike racing is done incorrectly. For my first 3 years of cycling I trained hard by doing every club ride I could get my hands on,rode in groups and tried to race as often as possible,every weekend at least once and sometimes 2 more times during the week if there was a training crit. I went to Belgium and found out almost everything I was doing was wrong.
Guys who come back flying after "training" may have just started doing it right, and most important alone. Not always drugs as you suggest .It is funny at the lowest levels how little importance is put on TTs and TT type training and at the highest levels it is a major part of their regiment. Not the tucked up,areo helmet TT but learning how to really punish yourself. With the right mix,of superior body type,genetic makeup and boatloads of talent the top pros can have near death experiences
because they train so hard, and lots of time totally solo.
Trying to super impose your suspect views about drug use over a completely misunderstood level of talent is funny at the very least. There is NO semi pro in cycling,you either have a pro license or you don't. If you have one you are a pro everybody else is not a pro,really that simple. Yes the guy who doesn't work and races his bike may think he is a pro but he would be wrong.

For anybody out there who is thinking.."if I only lived in a sunny place w lots of training rides and races I could be a pro" wake up and go out in the Belgian sunshine,it's all about "training".
 
Mar 4, 2012
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fatandfast said:
For anybody out there who is thinking.."if I only lived in a sunny place w lots of training rides and races I could be a pro" wake up and go out in the Belgian sunshine,it's all about "training".

Could you elaborate on that? What makes "good training"?
 
Apr 11, 2009
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Some facts

With Froome the appearances certainly are suspicious, but some facts about these diseases....

They can be extremely resistant and hard to get rid of. They can keep coming back after going into remission and the person appears and feels healthy for a long time. Surely folks here have read about others with malaria?

I know about bilharzia: I've had family in Zimbabwe. It's not like Froome is a Cancellara or a Swiss guy who is claiming he has bilharzia in Switzerland. It goes into remission and recurs. Of course, the appearances are really, really suspicious.

But some facts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilharzia

"Although it has a low mortality rate, schistosomiasis often is a chronic illness.... Schistosomiasis is the second most socioeconomically devastating parasitic disease after malaria...." (many of these folks can go untreated for long periods)

"Above all, schistosomiasis is a chronic disease. Many infections are subclinically symptomatic, with mild anemia and malnutrition being common in endemic areas...." "the parasite begins to feed on red blood cells" "Manifestations include:Abdominal pain, Cough, Diarrhea, Eosinophilia — extremely high eosinophil granulocyte (white blood cell) count. Fever. Fatigue...." etc.

It's a catch-22 for cycling fans and Froome. If he weren't cycling, he'd probably be cured by now. (High intensity cycling won't have done his immune system any favours--in fact, he's probably been positively harmed by it).
 
Vino attacks everyone said:
lol ye, he would be beaten by "July only" Schleck and all his clean friends for sure :rolleyes:
please spare me for this kind of stupidity

No, I am quite sure that stupidity is thinking that the difference between now where he is **** and 2006 when he was among the best riders in the world has nothing to do with being doped up to the eyeballs then.