Donkeys to racehorces. The effect of PEDs on cycling performance

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Oct 30, 2011
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Sorry, when I said "ignorance", I wasn't accusing you of it - I was suggesting that widespread ignorance of PEDs is a lot of the reason that fans of mainstream sports aren't as active about it. Agree that athletes shouldn't be held up as heroes.
 
Caruut said:
Sorry, when I said "ignorance", I wasn't accusing you of it - I was suggesting that widespread ignorance of PEDs is a lot of the reason that fans of mainstream sports aren't as active about it. Agree that athletes shouldn't be held up as heroes.
Again Bertolt Brecht comes to mind: "Pitty the country that needs it heroes."

At any rate the reason why other big-time sports don't have a "doping problem" is simple: money.

Cycling has become the focus of anti-doping because it is just an obvious candidate and because relatively poor. US football and Euro football will never be, because they make too much cash flow. Hence there are too many interests at work to promote anti-doping and expose the reality, even if any conscientious fan knows. But there most people are either more stupid or cynical than we cycling junkies. Such it is with the masses. Yet it isn't even discussed much and money is why.
 
Jul 4, 2009
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nighttrain said:
Bravo, rhubramo. Well said.
...yeah on first blush it is quite good...however a sober second opinion by someone skilled in the arts, such as an academic for instance, would yield a bit of a different response....

...that response would, for instance,question the use of the word simple in the analysis...because absolutely nothing in the building of the social construction of reality, which is what this is ultimately about, is simple...simple belongs in headlines and is a staple of drive-by analysis...then the response may turn to the word masses, a word that seems full of meaning, but upon close scrutiny, means virtually nothing....and then to tar a mass of people as simply stupid or cynical, puuuleeeeze, yeah like that's worthy of praise...as someone in Alice in Wonderland pointed out, words can be slippery ******s and you have to sometimes be very careful when you use them...

...and the other issue here is this style of answer also speaks to the way many of the threads in the clinic, especially those about LA, are couched...its all simple, good vs evil, no nuance, no contextual analysis...LA and his story is complex and unravelling the various threads that tie it together is the best way to not only understand the story but to make sure it is less likely to happen again...frankly the simple approach is like fast food, it fills the stomach but it is not the best solution for the problem it is supposed to solve...

....and last, but certainly not least...why do Romans have blond curly hair?...and no, the answer isn't simple, but it is relevant...

....all that being said it was a very good post as it brought into play many of the major issues that define this story....but it does have to be expanded in much the same way some great posters in the various political threads have expanded on political themes....some of the analyical rigour found there would be most welcome here and would go a long way to unravel this story...

Cheers

blutto
 
blutto said:
...yeah on first blush it is quite good...however a sober second opinion by someone skilled in the arts, such as an academic for instance, would yield a bit of a different response....

...that response would for instance, would question the use of the word simple in the analysis...because absolutely nothing in the building of the social construction of reality, which is what this is ultimately about, is simple...simple belongs in headlines and is a staple of drive-by analysis...then the response may turn to the word masses, a word that seems full of meaning but upon close scrutiny means virtually nothing....and then to tar a mass of people as simply stupid or cynical, puuuleeeeze, yeah like that's worthy of praise...as someone in Alice in Wonderland pointed out, words can be slippery ******s and you have to sometimes be very careful when you use them...

...and the other issue here is this style of answer also speaks to the way many of the threads in the clinic, especially those about LA, are couched...its all simple, good vs evil, no nuance, no contextual analysis...LA and his story is complex and unravelling the various threads that tie it together is the best way to not only understand the story but to make sure it is less likely to happen again...frankly the simple approach is like fast food, it fills the stomach but it is not the best solution for the problem it is supposed to solve...

....and last, but certainly not least...why do Romans have blond curly hair?...and no, the answer isn't simple, but it is relevant...

Cheers

blutto
No forum, Blutto, not even the most terrible, can justify us in falsifing our thoughts, falsifying the world, faslifying everything--in siding with hypocrisy, in other words.

The whole sport world has been turned into an unscrupulous commercial concern in which everything is bargained for and everyone is defrauded. That's the truth. You think you're watching a beautiful game, match or race, Blutto, but in reality you're watching a monstrous business enterprise.

It realy is as simple, and complex, as that. I don't blame the public for suspending their didbelief and being hoodwinked by their sport entertainment, but they really shouldn't say at every turn that sport builds character, let alone that such-and-such athlete is a role model for our children and even, on occasion, for the country. And, no, Romans do not have blond curly hair.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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nighttrain said:
Er...maybe a HS TE but the avg NFL Tight End is 6'4+, 260lbs+, and can run a 40 in sub 4.8 secs while crushing an unsuspecting linebacker with a block. intriguing comparison, though. Why do we (cycling enthusiasts) give at rats **** about PEDS while, globally, fans of pro football/soccer, tennis, hockey, basketball, boxing, baseball, American Football, and Mixed Martial Arts could care less. Those fans just want a good show. I sincerely don't know the answer but lost interest in cycling performances after understanding almost all were PED influenced.
the numbers were irrelevant. It was a metaphor, and I needed to disabuse folks taking the lb'age literally.

6'4" at 260 would be less at 6'1.

*not american, dont give a hoot about poundage and size. But, I know, in circa '85, Chicago Bears William Refrigerator Perry was the first defensive linesman to hold 300 lbs.

yeah, you can get me on details if you wish, but that was not the point.

The year after he started with Ferrari he came into the off-season camp with this huge chassis, ask Race Radio, and he got the nickname, "cortisone neck". He put the weight on in ~8 weeks or less. And it was seen in the traps, and the neck. Not easy to put functional muscle in those groups
 
Mar 13, 2009
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blutto said:
...you have got to be kidding...or do you have no clue about triathlons and the type of physiology that generally does well in that leisure activity...

...I could understand the need to stick to an agenda but for the sake of your own credibility try to keep it somewhat reasonable...

Cheers

blutto
but "supposedly" <ask Race Radio for reference> he stacked on the kgs, in the offseason when he went to Ferrari. 95/96 off season?

Everyone noticed it at the training camp when they came back.

OK, this is anecdotal, and could by a myth... so ask someone else. Pretty transparent about the lack of evidence in my"claim"
 
Jul 19, 2010
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blackcat said:
the numbers were irrelevant. It was a metaphor, and I needed to disabuse folks taking the lb'age literally.
The numbers seem right on.

Wikipedia numbers on some big name NFL tightends:
Shockey: 6ft5, 251 lbs,
Gronkowski:6ft6, 265lbs,
Gates: 6ft4, 260lbs
(For Europeans: 2m tall and 120-130 kg).

Most of those in the NFL combine are about the same size. They typically run the 40yd in 4.7 or 4.8. (yard is a little less than a meter).

The numbers for defensive linemen are even more astounding. For example:
Julius Peppers: 6ft7, 287lbs, ran 40yd in 4.68 at 290lbs.

For comparison, estimating based on his 100m runs, and trying to adjust for how 40yd is timed by the NFL (from actual start, not from gun), Usain Bolt runs the 40yd in about 4.2 or 4.3 - about the same speed as the fastest NFL cornerbacks (who are little guys - about 6ft, 200 lbs).

I don't mean to insinuate that any of these particular players is really a reprocessed pharmaceutical, but the size, strength, and speed of these guys is difficult to believe natural, and certainly as astounding as anything done by cyclists.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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blutto said:
...turgid eh...well in good clear light most would see it as eloquent...

...and Bernays?...come on ...if anything, that is classic cheap Bruce Barton schtick...

Cheers

blutto
how about the climbs up the mtns in the offseason in the snow, for the LA dvds. Reckon those things werent pure mythology?
 
Jul 4, 2009
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blackcat said:
how about the climbs up the mtns in the offseason in the snow, for the LA dvds. Reckon those things werent pure mythology?
...well...how about them climbs up the mtns in the the off season, for the LA dvds?...and what do they have to do with what I said about the advertising styles of Bernays and Barton?...btw still think its from the Barton school...

...as for that mythology being pure....maybe...or it could also be slightly soiled...or impure...or absolutely poisonous...depends of course on the perspective of the observer and the effect on same...

Cheers

blutto
 
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