Doped World Records on the shelf?

[Eyeballs Out]

You can see Marita Koch's WR here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OD4OUTXvtRU

There was some dispute as to whether she actually ran closer to 47 seconds but was robbed by a dodgy timing

 

[AntiGravityCycling]

I see 47.3 on the screen as she crosses the line.

FAST!!

 

[Darryl Webster]

The east German and russian state doping machine was very active in cycling in the 70,s and 80,s.
In 1980 I rode the Junior World team pursuit in Mexico gaining a bronze ( GB,s first ever junior worlds medal ) in a ride of against Canada .
Gold and silver were taken by Russia and East Germany both head and shoulders faster with times most any other nations senior Worlds teams would be happy with.
The kilo was won with 1.02 ride, IIRC , the 2 nd fastest Kilo ride ever at the time. Remember this was before discs ,carbon and an outdoor track.
I was track side for that ride and the fella had to be carried of his bike. Not sure of the spelling but I think his name was Udi Messerschmitt who surfaced again sometime in the 80,s to win the senior tittle but I can't recall when.

 

[the asian]

Qu Junxia and Wang Junxia's records must be the most ridiculous of them all.

Interesting article here.

I've posted this before. The women's Track world records from 100M to 1500 M , the 10,000 M and the Women's 100M Hurdles are doped performances. The 3000 M is not raced anymore at Olympic & World meets.

Not even doped athletes have broken these WRs. Even Marion Jones couldn't beat Flo Jo's WRs.
The women's High, Long,Put and Discuss are also form the darker era.

AS for Swimming the ridiculous records were because of the swimsuits. It will be interesting to see how long it will take to break these records in a textile suit. Some were broken this year, but there are some ridiculous records 2which will take a long time to beat.

 

[Cavalier]

Suddenly Flo Jo's weird one-legging outfits make sense.

 

[andy1234]

The east German and russian state doping machine was very active in cycling in the 70,s and 80,s.
In 1980 I rode the Junior World team pursuit in Mexico gaining a bronze ( GB,s first ever junior worlds medal ) in a ride of against Canada .
Gold and silver were taken by Russia and East Germany both head and shoulders faster with times most any other nations senior Worlds teams would be happy with.
The kilo was won with 1.02 ride, IIRC , the 2 nd fastest Kilo ride ever at the time. Remember this was before discs ,carbon and an outdoor track.
I was track side for that ride and the fella had to be carried of his bike. Not sure of the spelling but I think his name was Udi Messerschmitt who surfaced again sometime in the 80,s to win the senior tittle but I can't recall when.

The kilo winner was Maik Malchow, and that 1.02 was indeed a truly astonishing performance.

 

["Jeff"]

Former East German athlete, Marita Koch set the World Record for the women's 400 metres in 1985. That mark stands at 47.60 seconds, and speaks for itself.

Former Czechoslovakian athlete Jarmila Kratochvílová holds the World Record for the women's 800 metres. Her time of 1:53.28 was set in 1983. This record has stood for 29 Years. The longest standing individual record in track and field athletics.

Former Bulgarian athlete, Yordanka Donkova holds the World Record in the women's 100 metre hurdles, which she set in 1988, in a time of 12.21 seconds. Another questionable performance.

Call me an idiot.

Despite the that I cant stand the fact that no result in cycling between 1993 and 1999 can be taken seriously and that EPO ruined the sport, I think some of these world records in athletics have something special. I was seriously disappointed that world record 4x100 women was beaten. These GDR sporters were fascinating.

Besides I think some need to chill out, not every world record is a result of doping, just because the athlete came from Eastern-Europe...

 

[Trond Vidar]

I see your point, but it's kinda hillarious in hindsight to look at the medal tables from the 80's and then consider that GDR had a population, of what, 16 million at most?

Edit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Germany_at_the_Olympics

192 medals in 1976+1988

Better than USA.

Very interesting and long read about doping in GDR here:

Hormonal doping and androgenization of athletes: a secret program of the German Democratic Republic government

Abstract

Several classified documents saved after the collapse of the German Democratic Republic (GDR) in 1990 describe the promotion by the government of the use of drugs, notably androgenic steroids, in high-performance sports (doping). Top-secret doctoral theses, scientific reports, progress reports of grants, proceedings from symposia of experts, and reports of physicians and scientists who served as unofficial collaborators for the Ministry for State Security (“Stasi”) reveal that from 1966 on, hundreds of physicians and scientists, including top-ranking professors, performed doping research and administered prescription drugs as well as unapproved experimental drug preparations. Several thousand athletes were treated with androgens every year, including minors of each sex. Special emphasis was placed on administering androgens to women and adolescent girls because this practice proved to be particularly effective for sports performance. Damaging side effects were recorded, some of which required surgical or medical intervention. In addition, several prominent scientists and sports physicians of the GDR contributed to the development of methods of drug administration that would evade detection by international doping controls.

 

[the asian]

Call me an idiot.

Despite the that I cant stand the fact that no result in cycling between 1993 and 1999 can be taken seriously and that EPO ruined the sport, I think some of these world records in athletics have something special. I was seriously disappointed that world record 4x100 women was beaten. These GDR sporters were fascinating.

Besides I think some need to chill out, not every world record is a result of doping, just because the athlete came from Eastern-Europe...

These WRs are dodgy not because the athletes came from Eastern Europe, but because these records, mostly set in the 80s remain unbroken and nowadays nobody can come close to these performances ( Even doped athletes)and in the case of GDR, after unification former GDR officials admitted they had a state sponsored doping regime.
Also further note, that the 100 M & 200M records set by an american are dodgy too.

BTW if you believe results in cycling after 1999 can be taken seriously I pity you.

 

["Jeff"]

These WRs are dodgy not because the athletes came from Eastern Europe, but because these records, mostly set in the 80s remain unbroken and nowadays nobody can come close to these performances ( Even doped athletes)and in the case of GDR, after unification former GDR officials admitted they had a state sponsored doping regime.
Also further note, that the 100 M & 200M records set by an american are dodgy too.

BTW if you believe results in cycling after 1999 can be taken seriously I pity you.

I use a time period that I at least feel comfortable with. Does not mean I think everything was clean after that....you're overreacting.

As for the rest, WR's that were set in the '80s that have not been broken yet does not neccasarily mean = doping.

You dont have to tell me that all these athletes from the GDR were doped. That's pretty much a fact.

World Record 800m / 100m hurdles are suddenly questionable as well, just because the athlete came from Czechoslovakia and Bulgaria respectively and that they have not been broken yet. I understand the doubt but its still a lousy argument.

 

[Sylvester]

It's hard to find "definitely clean" WR's in athletics, really.

Maybe in the technical events. Bubka? Isinbayeva?

Radcliffe, maybe. Shaheen? I liked his superb technique a lot, but that doesn't mean he was not doping, of course.

Of course the likes of Bolt, El Guerrouj should be given the benefit of the doubt since there are no serious allegations linking them to doping (and I think Sotomayor would also have dominated a clean field). And I really hope Rudisha is clean.

 

[the asian]

I use a time period that I at least feel comfortable with. Does not mean I think everything was clean after that....you're overreacting.

As for the rest, WR's that were set in the '80s that have not been broken yet does not neccasarily mean = doping.

You dont have to tell me that all these athletes from the GDR were doped. That's pretty much a fact.

World Record 800m / 110m hurdles are suddenly questionable as well, just because the athlete came from Czechoslovakia and Bulgaria respectively and that they have not been broken yet. I understand the doubt but its still a lousy argument.

The modern day runners don't even seriously challenge it. The 800 M World record is at 1.53.28 set in 1983. Nowadays a runner very rarely dips under 1.55. Most of the times are 1.57, 1.58.
In fact out of the top 10 all time performances. only 3 are after 1990. 6 are from the 80s and one from the 70s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/800_metres#Top_ten_all-time_athletes_on_the_women.27s_800_m
Read it, and you'll get a clearer picture.

With all the advances in modern sporting science( Non doping related) if athletes nowadays can't run as fast as their counterparts two decades ago, there is something seriously wrong.
An unrealistic explanation is that the 80s athletes were genetic freaks
Other than that, why have times for the 800M being slower than in the 80s?

In the 100M Hurdles the WR stands at 12.21s set in 1988. the top 2 all time performances are both Bulgarian, the other in 1987 by a different athlete than Donkova, the WR holder. Only 4 athletes have gone under 12.30, the only one recently is Pearson's 12.28 at the World's last year.
Furthermore, most of the times recorded in the hurdles are outside 12.40.
Compare that to the Men's 110 M H where times in the 12.90s are quite common.

I don't think the argument that the WRs have not been broken for a long time points to doping is a lousy. If you look at the progression of WRs you will find that it's uncommon for a WR to stand for a very long period.
Even Bob Beamon's incredible leap was beaten after 23 years.!

 

[Paco_P]

these are not world records, but nevertheless records, and quite astonishing ones imho: Ronaldo and Messi 2011/2012 goalscoring records.
http://sogyeltobgyel.blogspot.de/2012/05/who-had-better-season-in-2011-2012.html

This is more reflective of how many games their teams play, and how much better those teams are than the rest of the League. On a goals per match basis, both Messi and Ronaldo's best La Liga season is inferior to Zarra's best seasons, and comparable to Hugo Sanchez's or di Stefano's best season, and slightly better than the real Ronaldo's, Romario's, or Eto'o's best seasons. Frankly, Messi and Ronaldo are as good as all of the above except perhaps di Stefano (who the old Spaniards say was the best). If you throw in all matches (including European leagues), Puskas and di Stefano look as good as Messi, and better than Ronaldo, on a goal per match basis. Of course there is more to it than goals, and Ronaldo plays alongside Higuain and Benzema, who together, splitting time, score as much again as he does (!), while Messi does more than score goals.

While the real Ronaldo and Romario certainly took some drugs, both the good king and the bad kind, somebody like Puskas certainly did not (Puskas was famous for being fat and refusing to move much). So scoring loads of goals in and of itself is not indicative of doping.

I see no reason to think Ronaldo dopes more than John Terry.

 

[poupou]

Of course the likes of Bolt, El Guerrouj should be given the benefit of the doubt since there are no serious allegations linking them to doping (and I think Sotomayor would also have dominated a clean field). And I really hope Rudisha is clean.

I do believe that Bolt will left athletism soon, he is going to do a "Flo-Jo" : becoming a legend, and leave sport before being caught.

 

[the asian]

It's hard to find "definitely clean" WR's in athletics, really.

Maybe in the technical events. Bubka? Isinbayeva?

Radcliffe, maybe. Shaheen? I liked his superb technique a lot, but that doesn't mean he was not doping, of course.

Of course the likes of Bolt, El Guerrouj should be given the benefit of the doubt since there are no serious allegations linking them to doping (and I think Sotomayor would also have dominated a clean field). And I really hope Rudisha is clean.

El Guerrouj, Bekele and Isinbayeva, I'll definitely give the benefit of the doubt. Bolt, of course not.
I'm also hoping Rudisha is clean. Not too sure though.

 

[sniper]

This is more reflective of how many games their teams play, and how much better those teams are than the rest of the League. On a goals per match basis, both Messi and Ronaldo's best La Liga season is inferior to Zarra's best seasons, and comparable to Hugo Sanchez's or di Stefano's best season, and slightly better than the real Ronaldo's, Romario's, or Eto'o's best seasons. Frankly, Messi and Ronaldo are as good as all of the above except perhaps di Stefano (who the old Spaniards say was the best). If you throw in all matches (including European leagues), Puskas and di Stefano look as good as Messi, and better than Ronaldo, on a goal per match basis. Of course there is more to it than goals, and Ronaldo plays alongside Higuain and Benzema, who together, splitting time, score as much again as he does (!), while Messi does more than score goals.

While the real Ronaldo and Romario certainly took some drugs, both the good king and the bad kind, somebody like Puskas certainly did not (Puskas was famous for being fat and refusing to move much). So scoring loads of goals in and of itself is not indicative of doping.

I see no reason to think Ronaldo dopes more than John Terry.

good points.

But state of the art doping is obviously involved in facilitating Ronaldo and Messi to absorb such an amazing number of games per season in the first place. So without topquality juice their new records would not have been possible.
You also forget that not only strikers and midfielders but also defenders are getting stronger and stronger (for largely the same reasons), a fact that makes Ronaldo's and Messi's goalscoring all the more remarkable.

Madrid and Barca, and football in general, are definitely hitting new dimensions in terms of fitness and athleticism. All comparisons with the past fail in that respect.

 

[Paco_P]

The modern day runners don't even seriously challenge it. The 800 M World record is at 1.53.28 set in 1983. Nowadays a runner very rarely dips under 1.55. Most of the times are 1.57, 1.58.
In fact out of the top 10 all time performances. only 3 are after 1990. 6 are from the 80s and one from the 70s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/800_metres#Top_ten_all-time_athletes_on_the_women.27s_800_m
Read it, and you'll get a clearer picture.

I am a bit confused about what you are trying to say. Are you calling Sebastian Coe a doper? His 800 M is a tremendous outlier - basically it's him and a bunch of Kenyans in the 2000's ....

 

[Darryl Webster]

The kilo winner was Maik Malchow, and that 1.02 was indeed a truly astonishing performance.

Cheers Andy..was scratching my head on that one!

 

[the asian]

I do believe that Bolt will left athletism soon, he is going to do a "Flo-Jo" : becoming a legend, and leave sport before being caught.

And joining the 20/20 Cricket circus, where there is no doping controls but match fixing.
Rumour is that Blake will join too.

 

[Paco_P]

good points.

But state of the art doping is obviously involved in facilitating Ronaldo and Messi to absorb such an amazing number of games per season in the first place. So without topquality juice their new records would not have been possible.
You also forget that not only strikers and midfielders but also defenders are getting stronger and stronger (for largely the same reasons), a fact that makes Ronaldo's and Messi's goalscoring all the more remarkable.

Madrid and Barca, and football in general, are definitely hitting new dimensions in terms of fitness and athleticism. All comparisons with the past fail in that respect.

In football doping's primary purpose is to improve endurace - passing as crisply in minute 80 as in minute 10, and enduring 2-3 games a week for 35 weeks. Here I don't think Ronaldo and Messi are any more (or any less) culpable than nearly any other professional football player on a comparable club. Similarly, I don't think the Spanish league is any different from the Italian, English, or German in this respect. None of them does anything serious with respect to doping.

It always pays to remember that Pep Guardiola, Xavi's immediate successor in Barca's midfield and later his coach, was actually caught in Italy for doping. While an anecdote, it suggests that doping is institutionalized in programs like Barca's, where players like Messi (or Eto'o, comparably, in Madrid's program) start at age 12 and literally grow up.

 

[Paco_P]

Bolt, of course not.
I'm also hoping Rudisha is clean. Not too sure though.

Looking at this neutrally, I see far more reason to suspect Rudisha than to suspect Bolt, and that's even given a baseline hypothesis that all 100m finalists are doping. What Rudisha does is to me more impressive than what Bolt does.

 

[the asian]

I am a bit confused about what you are trying to say. Are you calling Sebastian Coe a doper? His 800 M is a tremendous outlier - basically it's him and a bunch of Kenyans in the 2000's ....

Him and Cruz stand out. I won't call him a doper, but I will not say that I'm 100% certain he is clean.
In fact his time, and the length it took to break his WR were some of the reasons some Clinicians suspect him. Can't remember the exact thread where the accusations were made.
He could be an Extraordinary athlete or a doper. In fact I'm pretty sure he was Eastern European, he would be definitely labeled a doper
But at least his record was equaled and then broken by Wilson Kipketer after 16 yrs, whereas we are still waiting for the Jarmila's record to be broken for 30 yrs.

 

[sniper]

In football doping's primary purpose is to improve endurace - passing as crisply in minute 80 as in minute 10, and enduring 2-3 games a week for 35 weeks. Here I don't think Ronaldo and Messi are any more (or any less) culpable than nearly any other professional football player on a comparable club. Similarly, I don't think the Spanish league is any different from the Italian, English, or German in this respect. None of them does anything serious with respect to doping.

It always pays to remember that Pep Guardiola, Xavi's immediate successor in Barca's midfield and later his coach, was actually caught in Italy for doping. While an anecdote, it suggests that doping is institutionalized in programs like Barca's, where players like Messi (or Eto'o, comparably, in Madrid's program) start at age 12 and literally grow up.

I agree that doping programs will be largely similar across europe. but that doesn't make ronaldo's and messi's records any less remarkable.

Predictions of specialists in the 90s and 2000s were that we wouldn't be seeing any spectacular goalscoring records in the coming decennia because football was getting tighter and tighter, with less and less room for strikers.
The game was incredibly open e.g. in the 60s and 70s, when mosterscores (team A beating Team B by 10-0, etc.) were the rule rather than the exception. In the 90s and 2000s such high scores were becoming increasingly rare, and the average goals scored per game was dropping gradually because the game was getting so much more physical and tight.
I read discussions about Messi's and Ronaldo's goalscoring records and the consensus is still that nobody really expected such records to happen in the modern era.

 

[will10]

You can see Marita Koch's WR here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OD4OUTXvtRU

There was some dispute as to whether she actually ran closer to 47 seconds but was robbed by a dodgy timing

lol that is hilarious.

 

[Cavalier]

I was more impressed with the girl who ran 2nd. At the 200m mark at least she was supposed to still be behind.