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Dopin in 2008 Giro

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Polish

Polish

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Clean defeats CERA

The 2008 Giro d Italia was probably the dirtiest/dopiest GT ever -
advanced EPO/CERA was flowing like mineral water!

But do know what? A CLEAN rider won!

The 2008 Giro should be an inspiration:)

BikePur should use Alberto as a "Poster Model"

"The only Magic Bullets I use come out of my Fingers pow pow"
 
Dr. Maserati

Dr. Maserati

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Riley Martin said:
So can they bring back positive results or not?

With pythRHon and RTMcFadden going off on each other it is hard to tell who has the facts.

I think RTMcFadden has it right.
Click to expand...

Ya- I cant remember who said what!

This a Police investigation - so it could certainly be argued that sporting sanctions may not be easy to apply. However if I was a cyclist in the '08 Giro and had been naughty I would be more worried by the Police than the UCI.

So, if anyone has new and updated info they should just share it.
 
Race Radio

Race Radio

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RTMcFadden said:
Maybe not. It would certainly have to involve Roche and a review of their clinical data. As part of their normal clinical study, they would evaluate the washout period. As such, they should know with relative certainty how long the CERA (EPO-PEG) would remain in the system, or at least how long it would remain detectable in the system.
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Not exactly.

Unless the molecule was critical in the performance of the drug for cancer patients they would not have traced its washout period. In fact because of the size of the molecule it often did not pass through normal bodily functions, hence the need for more sensitive blood tests. Roche does know that CERA is much longer lasting then normal EPO, remaining active for over 3 months.

Roche did alert WADA to the existence of the molecule and the Geneva and and LNDD laps figured out how to trace it.
 
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RTMcFadden

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Race Radio said:
Not exactly.

Unless the molecule was critical in the performance of the drug for cancer patients they would not have traced its washout period. In fact because of the size of the molecule it often did not pass through normal bodily functions, hence the need for more sensitive blood tests. Roche does know that CERA is much longer lasting then normal EPO, remaining active for over 3 months.

Roche did alert WADA to the existence of the molecule and the Geneva and and LNDD laps figured out how to trace it.
Click to expand...

OK. Interesting info. So, if we take this back to the original question, then they would not be able to reasonably seperate this into two seperate and distinct doping incidents.
 
python

python

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Race Radio said:
Not exactly.

Unless the molecule was critical in the performance of the drug for cancer patients they would not have traced its washout period. In fact because of the size of the molecule it often did not pass through normal bodily functions, hence the need for more sensitive blood tests. Roche does know that CERA is much longer lasting then normal EPO, remaining active for over 3 months.

Roche did alert WADA to the existence of the molecule and the Geneva and and LNDD laps figured out how to trace it.
Click to expand...
it was on the news and u dont have to be a scientist to recall that roche helped with reagents. what else went on btwn wada and roche and what roche studied for their application to anemia patients is irrelevant to antidoping. they gave wada reagents for enough experiments to establish cera's signature. the time cera is effective is also very easy to google. its half life is well studied and is much longer than the other known forms of epo.
you r right thats the reason the blood test is much more effective than the urine test.
 
Race Radio

Race Radio

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python said:
it was on the news and u dont have to be a scientist to recall that roche helped with reagents. what else went on btwn wada and roche and what roche studied for their application to anemia patients is irrelevant to antidoping. they gave wada reagents for enough experiments to establish cera's signature. the time cera is effective is also very easy to google. its half life is well studied and is much longer than the other known forms of epo.
you r right thats the reason the blood test is much more effective than the urine test.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I an not an chemist...what is a reagent and what was it used for?

While it is well know how long CERA is effect for what would matter in this case was how long the molecule is detectable for.
 
python

python

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Race Radio said:
Sorry, I an not an chemist...what is a reagent and what was it used for?
Click to expand...
not trying to be a smart *** or in anyway negative. here’s the answers.com definition

‘A substance used in a chemical reaction to detect, measure, examine, or produce other substances’

my best guess would be that roche provided wada with the cera molecule in the chemical solutions that allowed to conduct a series of steps described in the wada document td2009epo.
http://www.wada-ama.org/rtecontent/document/TD2009EPO_Sept2009_EN.pdf

from the description i’d guess they helped with the cleanup chemicals and most importantly with the cera reference standard - a chemical used to compare an athletes epo bands to “pure” cera that had undergone the same processing as the athlete's sample.

While it is well know how long CERA is effect for what would matter in this case was how long the molecule is detectable for.
Click to expand...
Agree. The literature reports that the cera test sensitivity if tested in blood is about 30 days.
 
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Race Radio said:
Sorry, I an not an chemist...what is a reagent and what was it used for?

While it is well know how long CERA is effect for what would matter in this case was how long the molecule is detectable for.
Click to expand...

Reagents are used in analytical chemistry to bring about a reaction or test for the lack of reaction and then you observe or measure what is produced. Generally speaking.
 
auscyclefan94

auscyclefan94

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issoisso said:
Sella named Priamo, and Priamo won a stage so he was no doubt tested.

So, Priamo, Riccò, Sella and Bruseghin (rides for a team that recently had 4 doping cases in about a year, plus had by a huge margin the best ride of his career, never doing anywhere near as well neither before, nor after) I think are dead certs.

As for the others, Bosisio, Di Luca seem good bets.

Piepoli rode that Giro too. Simoni, maybe. Maybe Savoldelli.

Contador and Menchov, I doubt they were on CERA. Something else, sure. But not CERA.
Click to expand...

I think your spot on. Unfortunately conti won't go down:(
 
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afpm90 said:
According to biciclismo, that cites gazzeta dello sport, the italian doping authorities found several samples, of riders in the 2008 Giro, suspicious. The italian authorities asked UCI that the Lausana lab to also analyse the samples, and UCI authorized. Results are expected within two months.

http://www.biciciclismo.com/cas/site/noticias.asp?id=1
Click to expand...

Giro 2008 EpoCera positiv???
seven riders have "abnormal analytical findings???
 
auscyclefan94

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issoisso said:
Finally news on this. It'd been stopped since May. jesus. Takes forever.

EDIT: So, in December, Riccò and Sella will come back positive, it'll be a second offence and they'll be gone for life. buh-bye.
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Didn't Ricco have 2 different sample days come back positive at the tour? Do they only count it as 1 offence for as many positives in the one race?
 
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Digger

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drummond said:
Giro 2008 EpoCera positiv???
seven riders have "abnormal analytical findings???
Click to expand...

How I'd love AC to be one of those...Pellizotti I reckon, along with the already caught.
Bosisio
Visconti
Rebellin

I have to say that if a rider is serving a ban for a Tour de France offence in July, and they retroactively test the Giro samples from that May, and these also test positive, I don't believe a life ban is right. Granted yes it is a second offence, but to me it's not the same as serving a ban and then doping when the ban is over. I'm all for lifetime bans, but not in these circumstances...just my opinion on that point.
 
Dr. Maserati

Dr. Maserati

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mitchman said:
Looking back two years plus with retroactive testing is pointless…..what will it change?
Click to expand...

While you may have a point that 'we' should not have to wait 2 years to know the results of the testing (and indeed the results of the race)..

However - in saying that you are against retro inspecting of the samples - then you are saying "hey I am Danilo, i was second because you did not catch me on CERA before the race ended"..... You caught me in July, too late....
 
Dr. Maserati

Dr. Maserati

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mitchman said:
Looking back two years plus with retroactive testing is pointless…..what will it change?
Click to expand...

Amm,.. the point of retroactive testing is to look back on "old' samples..... with the intention that anyone who was naughty would be removed from the result- thereby altering them (ie it would change the result).
 
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