Doping In Athletics

[armchairclimber]

Re: Re:

Daft Ill informed or extremely naive. Or all 3 together. You have to be one of the above to actually think radcliffe was clean. She has perhaps the most ridiculous world record in the history of sport, accomplished it during a time when athletics was a doping free for all, flip flops on transparency when it's asked of her, and throws her weight behind omerta. There's one thing to say -I don't know for 100% she dopes, and another to actually say one thinks the above athlete is more likely to be clean than doped.

Also I can't forget how you said that you think bolt is clean because he is tall, an argument that mstr put down quite easily as it doesn't make much sense.

Hitch, either you don't read my posts properly or you choose to mis-represent them. Please don't. My arguments regarding Bolt were more involved, as well you know. Perhaps if you stopped trying to be an internet badass you'd function better as a critic. Thanks in advance.

Any news from Jamaica? Last I saw you were going to confirm a few things but then nothing more eventuated?

I was pretty busy out there so, unsurprisingly, I didn't learn a great deal other than that the blame for the doping positives was generally laid at the door of athletes who opted to train in America, be coached with Americans (specifically Tyson Gay's group IIRC) and represented by an American agent. I have had neither the time, nor the inclination since, to look at those claims critically. FWIW. the general vibe was Bolt clean...Blake, quite possibly not. The fact that Bolt was regarded as clean in Jamaican sporting circles won't be a surprise to anyone, obviously.

Edit PS: One thing that struck me whilst driving around was that I saw, particularly amongst U20 girls, the kind of physiques you would, as an athletics coach, be very keen to get down to your club for "talent ID" sessions. Tall, lean, muscular...quite amazing the number of kids that looked to have great athletic potential...whatever sport they chose. How many of them were actually involved with sport in any way would be anyone's guess. For many, just surviving poverty would seem to be the main goal in life.

 

[danielovichdk2]

Justin Gatlin now running faster than when he was doping.

Cleans off course...

 

[sniper]

Gatlin, the best deflection ever.

 

[Freddythefrog]

Re: Re:

She isn't even remotely close to being proven guilty, in any way shape or form. She's smiling on TV every day at the moment. She may be guilty in your head....but, thankfully, that's a place only you inhabit. She may get busted eventually....who knows, but at the moment many, many people fall outside of the small constituency who think she dopes. Some of us aren't daft or ill-informed either.

As I have stated before, I have a collection of peers for whom the concept of Daly Thompson, Steve Ovett, Seb Coe Alan Wells, Fatima Whitbread, Tessa Sanderson, Kathy Smallwood and others of Moscow/Los Angles era, doped, is a real conversation, and in fact relationship, stopper. The fact that Olympic Team Doctor Jimmy Ledingham was quoted in the newspaper that the only way to compete at the highest level is to dope and then we came back with a bunch of medals was a penny that failed to drop. Why did it fail to drop ? Because those individuals failed to accept that they had made errors of judgement about the characters and story they were being told by the media. David Coleman and the like were busy hyping up the success stories, whilst ignoring the elephant in the room, every bit as much as Ligget Sherwin, Fotheringham, Birnie, Pickering and the Brit cycling press are right now. "i'll eat my hat if Lance is a doper - said the moron who flew in Lance's private jet. The story sounds just so good. But actually the story is pure turd.

At long last Wells was exposed. No one can doubt that the tape of Ledingham describing the doping he worked on with Wells, as recorded by McMaster as fake. Radcliffe, her actions and the BS response of the establishment to protect her, is circumstantial evidence, but quality evidence none the less, just as her pattern of tweeting became erratic around the time the story started to break in December last year. Every bit as much as much as in Jan 2013, Cav flipping with the TV crew and Brad having a spat, when Lance appeared on Oprah, or Brad honking up on the morning of the World Championships when Hayles was withdrawn for being over 50% in 2012. The finger was on Lance and Hayles, Radcliffe's name was mentioned nowhere public, Cav and Wiggans were no way implicated with Lance, but all three knew that they were only one or two mistakes from their fraud being exposed and they were on edge and their behaviour changed from the norm. Radcliffe stops tweeting rubbish and Cav and Sir Brad throw tantrums worthy of the best a 3 year old could give.

Now you can either put your fingers in your ears and go "la la la, I'm not listening" or you can grow up. What might be a good thing is to look and see who doesn't fit the pattern - achieving sports person who suddenly came good + loved by the establishment + loved by the media and finishes their career working in the media on in the establishment. Pick you runner/rider/jumper/thrower who is not in that mould and you might get close to finding someone who was clean in a dirty environment. There are a whole shed load of other signs to look out for, but before you start looking you need to open your eyes, it helps "seeing" no end.

 

[skippythepinhead]

certainly would be an easy case in civil court, where the standard is "a preponderance of evidence" rather than "beyond a reasonable (or really ANY doubt).

I'm going to have to say not providing exculpatory evidence leads me to agree the civil level has been reached by Paula. Those who are waiting for incontrovertible proof ought to also be given some deference and encouragement to continue their case. Civil penalties can be determined after the criminal case....

 

[Freddythefrog]

Had lunch and watched some of the Beeb's athletics coverage. It is like they have a policy that designs in Jimmy Saville type situations. Who shall we hire in ? I know, an American who trashed everyone during his career at a time when new drugs were coming into the sport and there were no tests for them. It is no wonder that reality never comes over the screen and even otherwise sane people start to believe in the fairy story. Currently running a a poll for winner of the 100m Good v. evil - Bolt v. Gatlin. It is like proposing Stuart Hall v Jimmy Saville good v evil. You just couldn't make all this stuff up.

 

[King Boonen]

Gatlin WR. Please, please, please!!

 

[snccdcno]

Bolt stepped it up, Gatlin not as good as I expected.

 

[PremierAndrew]

'A Superhero saves his sport'

gg Steve Cram

 

[Chaddy]

Re:

Had lunch and watched some of the Beeb's athletics coverage. It is like they have a policy that designs in Jimmy Saville type situations. Who shall we hire in ? I know, an American who trashed everyone during his career at a time when new drugs were coming into the sport and there were no tests for them. Then we need a Brit. Who is as thick as a plank and can make 97.5% of the total UK population feel good because in listening to him for just 30 seconds all those 97.5% can have a smug sense of surety that they are way smarter than the guy on the TV ? Yes, let's wheel on Michael Johnson and Brendan Foster. It is no wonder that reality never comes over the screen and even otherwise sane people start to believe in the fairy story. Currently running a a poll for winner of the 100m Good v. evil - Bolt v. Gatlin. It is like proposing Stuart Hall v Jimmy Saville good v evil. You just couldn't make all this stuff up.

Well this is just bizarre

 

[the sceptic]

Re:

'A Superhero saves his sport'

gg Steve Cram

Paula "Bolt is the cleanest athlete since me"

 

[Happy dude]

I haven't been sadder at an athletics event

 

[Lyon]

The show must go on...

 

[the sceptic]

Re:

I haven't been sadder at an athletics event

why? just enjoy the freakshow.

Bolt saved the sport from the evil dopers! The brits love him so much he might get a knighthood.

 

[Freddythefrog]

"Saves his sport" I was always ready to give Cram a bit of lee way, but recent years I have lost faith in him. His coverage today was appalling. Then the Beeb had as his foil Colin Jackson, the short distance response to Brendan Foster.

 

[Happy dude]

Re: Re:

I haven't been sadder at an athletics event

why? just enjoy the freakshow.

Bolt saved the sport from the evil dopers! The brits love him so much he might get a knighthood.

I'm British, and I don't like him, I don't like the mindless worshipping, and I don't like the lack of logic when saying bolt has saved his sport. I've never wanted someone to win something in athletics more

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Have the middle distance events been and gone yet? Taoufik Makhloufi beat his PB in the 1500m last month and is working with an ex-Oregon Project coach. Cram was such an ass about Makhloufi at the Olympics when compared to his unquestioning attitudes to other ridiculous outliers, so I want to know how he behaves about the Algerian now.

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re: Re:

I haven't been sadder at an athletics event

why? just enjoy the freakshow.

Bolt saved the sport from the evil dopers! The brits love him so much he might get a knighthood.

I'm sad that Gatlin didn't break the WR

 

[the sceptic]

Re:

"Saves his sport" I was always ready to give Cram a bit of lee way, but recent years I have lost faith in him. His coverage today was appalling. Then the Beeb had as his foil Colin Jackson, the short distance response to Brendan Foster - complete vacuosity.

BBC is going hard for the Gatlin is evil narrative. Their agenda is clear. Doping doesn't exist, and if it does it's only "them" and not "us"

Pretty disgusting if you ask me. Gatlin is no worse than any other person on that start line.

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re: Re:

"Saves his sport" I was always ready to give Cram a bit of lee way, but recent years I have lost faith in him. His coverage today was appalling. Then the Beeb had as his foil Colin Jackson, the short distance response to Brendan Foster - complete vacuosity.

BBC is going hard for the Gatlin is evil narrative. Their agenda is clear. Doping doesn't exist, and if it does it's only "them" and not "us"

Pretty disgusting if you ask me. Gatlin is no worse than any other person on that start line.

Gatlin was just more stupid in the way he did it. If anything, he deserves a bit of sympathy for being the one getting all the hate

 

[Freddythefrog]

Re: Re:

Well this is just bizarre

It comes down to whether you think Bolt is actually clean or just as dirty as Gatlin, but protected by the establishment as too big to fail and so tipped off when the testers are about to call, so unlike fellow Olympic Gold medal winning team-mates Asafa Powell and Yohan Blake and the like. Bolt get's a "free" pass because his cointues success is so important to the future of the sport. Free passes are what causes the scandals that so devalue some great institutions. Why is that hero-worship blind ? Same problem all my mates thought Alan Wells was clean - they listened to the likes of David Coleman and actually believed some of the cr*p he came out with.

Cycling has been taken down the toilet by an establishment thinking that suppressing the doping stories of its brightest star and keeping them out of the news would get them to a good place. Lance spotted that and took advantage. Bolt is having just as much fun.

 

[Texeng]

Re:

certainly would be an easy case in civil court, where the standard is "a preponderance of evidence" rather than "beyond a reasonable (or really ANY doubt).

I'm going to have to say not providing exculpatory evidence leads me to agree the civil level has been reached by Paula. Those who are waiting for incontrovertible proof ought to also be given some deference and encouragement to continue their case. Civil penalties can be determined after the criminal case....

If there is enough evidence in your opinion for a civil level case please go ahead and sue Paula. I'd be interested to hear why you feel she has to provide evidence when, as far as I know, there are no charges for her to respond to. Or is this the court of (some of) the public opinion we keep hearing about?

 

[Lyon]

Re: Re:

"Saves his sport" I was always ready to give Cram a bit of lee way, but recent years I have lost faith in him. His coverage today was appalling. Then the Beeb had as his foil Colin Jackson, the short distance response to Brendan Foster - complete vacuosity.

BBC is going hard for the Gatlin is evil narrative. Their agenda is clear. Doping doesn't exist, and if it does it's only "them" and not "us"

Pretty disgusting if you ask me. Gatlin is no worse than any other person on that start line.

Gatlin was just more stupid in the way he did it. If anything, he deserves a bit of sympathy for being the one getting all the hate

To be fair, Gatlin blamed his masseur rather than his toothpaste. People from Nike/Gatlins camp also physically assaulted said masseur. Not a pretty story.

 

[Freddythefrog]

Re:

Have the middle distance events been and gone yet? Taoufik Makhloufi beat his PB in the 1500m last month and is working with an ex-Oregon Project coach. Cram was such an ass about Makhloufi at the Olympics when compared to his unquestioning attitudes to other ridiculous outliers, so I want to know how he behaves about the Algerian now.

I have not been following middle distance but the Beeb previewed the women's 800m and a young lady crossing the line to set a new WR with the next finisher over 60m back and eulogised about the prospects ahead. It was like turning the clock back a few decades and listening to stuff about Flo Jo as she finished 10m clear in the 100m or those real kick-arse GDR/CCCP/USA 4 x 100 or 4 x 400 women's relay finals with the 4th team half a lap back. The narrative is worrying and I think having Paula in their midst and suspecting she is the person who put out the super-injunction is starting to freak the Beeb into this overdoing the "we're cleans" narrative.

 

[Cramps]

Despite the Cram-esque "super-hero saves his sport" and all the other good/evil malarky from the BBC coverage, I don't think any commentator has ever once mentioned the word "doping". Presumably the editors have said the word is forbidden and must not be mentioned. But I'm honestly unclear why would that be?