Doping in other sports?

[RobbieCanuck]

the EPO use is a recovery drug in sprinting. in a 9 second 100metre race, it is all ATP dude.

Well you are correct, ATP is the primary respiratory mechanism in anaerobic exercise but EPO will still increase the red blood cells for O2 uptake in sprinting because the respiratory process is not an all or nothing thing in for example the 400 and 800 metres which today are essentially sprints. EPO also modulates the production of lactate.

 

[Franklin]

A certain section of 'the Italians' are trying to bust doping, but i have not seen any Serie A players busted for doping...........

Neither are the Spanish looking too hard at their Liga or Tennis stars

To pick on a sport like cycling again and again for doping at this stage is like taking candy from children. I am glad they do target cycling, but not happy others get a free pass.

Full points there

 

[Franklin]

If they're serious about it, why are three quarters of the names in Operacion Puerto still unknown and unpunished? I have to agree on the lack of action by some other federations you mention, but wouldn't say the Spanish are really doing that much better. Also, don't forget the French!

Now the protection of soccer and Tennis players certainly is showing the limit of Spanish judicial power(and the willingness to act of the political arm), but keep a few things in mind:

1. Was it a criminal act to dope/transfuse? Nope. The criminal charges were full on towards Fuentes (abuse of facilities, money laundring).

It was nowhere beside France criminal to dope, Puerto changed that. And even then, in these kind of substance related cases usually the focus is on the dealer, not on the buyer (focus shifted a bit lately)

All sanctions had to go through the sports unions. Cycling Spain did okay (something really odd with AC of course), other Spanish sport unions just didn't act at all.

2. Considering the lack of criminal charges there is an issue with privacy. In general (smaller) criminals are not even named in papers, let alone people who actually did not do a criminal act.

And on the French, well except the big Festina/Cofidis hooplah things kinda quieted down on that front. Yet look at how France Soccer did those years (No I do not think for a second soccer, especially in those years, was clean). Either France is really clean, or it was just political grandstanding.



With the doping subject we have several issues (worldwide!): One of those is the question how a criminal investigation becomes a sports union case and vice versa. We have seen this with Lance, where there is a distinct lack of criminal justice and a plethoria of European cases where police action does not lead to Sports action.

This is both a judical as a moral issue which is not as clearcut as we like to think. It's a good thing that the police can not simply tell your criminal behavior to your employee. My drunk driving (I don't have a license, so this is an example) should not land on the desk of my boss, even if it affects my working efficency because I call in sick.

But with sports we want exactly to see a mechanism like that (so do I!), so the puzzle is: How do you create a mechanism which does not infringe the civil rights of athletes? And how do you get the political support for such a change? When will investigation data be turned over to the union (in criminal cases this could take years!)?

France was the first country that tried to crack that nut (imho they stopped caring beyond the first steps) and now we see Italy and Spain wrestling with the same problems. Other countries are as far a I can see pretty much ignoring the issue and attributing it a problem for the unions. And that's very problematic considering a union has a limited investigative arsenal (if any) and more important, there are vested interests (up to corruption) which make the unions not the right organ to handle it.

Now of course we could just shove it to Wada and it's national subsidiaries, but that has the same issues: National antidoping organs are underfunded, understaffed and quite frankly it's not impossible in some cases hey are corrupted themselves. Besides, this brings up a tangled web with corss-border problems.

All in all, this is not just a simple case of transparency and political willingness. This is a problem with many economical and civil issues.

 

[blackcat]

This is a hugely puerile comment. There is good money in curling. The top skips earn about $75,000 to $150,000 per year. Most skips have some profession. Jennifer Jones the Olympic Gold medal winner is a lawyer who will earn from curling this year about $150,000 to $200,000. Your arrogance is only outdone by your hubris.

it was parody dude.

get over it.

 

[blackcat]

Well you are correct, ATP is the primary respiratory mechanism in anaerobic exercise but EPO will still increase the red blood cells for O2 uptake in sprinting because the respiratory process is not an all or nothing thing in for example the 400 and 800 metres which today are essentially sprints. EPO also modulates the production of lactate.

I thought the conversation was about 100metres.

is the limiting factor red cells and blood O2 in a 400/800? I thought the muscular endurance was. which may well be intimately tied to the red cell O2. intuition says so

 

[RobbieCanuck]

I thought the conversation was about 100metres.

is the limiting factor red cells and blood O2 in a 400/800? I thought the muscular endurance was. which may well be intimately tied to the red cell O2. intuition says so

Well I understand your point about ATP and it is of course a well taken point when it comes to the 100 metres. I suspect ATP is the sole respiratory process in a 10 second race.

But in any sprint be it 100, 200, 400 and if you consider the 800 a sprint the body is still taking in O2 that has to go somewhere and I am assuming it goes to the red blood cells. So it would seem as the "sprint" distances increase, there is a secondary respiratory process involving VO uptake that would benefit from EPO. At some point the normal respiratory process has to take over from a pure ATP process. Is it at the point where the exercise is no longer anaerobic and becomes aerobic? I don't know.

But is seems to me the two respiratory processes are not mutually exclusive during anaerobic exercise. As you know there are several other respiratory processes, but in the context of this discussion I think ATP and normal oxygen uptake are the only two.

My understanding is that EPO modulates lactate build up. So in a cycling race when the cyclist has to accelerate (for various reasons - to deal with a break, to sprint to the finish) thus raising the lactate in the legs, the EPO has the effect of maintaining a sub maximal level so the cyclist does not burn out.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

it was parody dude.

get over it.

Okay. But I did feel you were mocking people in a lower social economic status. For many people in the lower wage scales curling is an affordable social sport. But the vast majority of curlers in Canada are middle to upper middle class people, generally well educated who like chess on ice.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Well I understand your point about ATP and it is of course a well taken point when it comes to the 100 metres. I suspect ATP is the sole respiratory process in a 10 second race.

But in any sprint be it 100, 200, 400 and if you consider the 800 a sprint the body is still taking in O2 that has to go somewhere and I am assuming it goes to the red blood cells. So it would seem as the "sprint" distances increase, there is a secondary respiratory process involving VO uptake that would benefit from EPO. At some point the normal respiratory process has to take over from a pure ATP process. Is it at the point where the exercise is no longer anaerobic and becomes aerobic? I don't know.

But is seems to me the two respiratory processes are not mutually exclusive during anaerobic exercise. As you know there are several other respiratory processes, but in the context of this discussion I think ATP and normal oxygen uptake are the only two.

My understanding is that EPO modulates lactate build up. So in a cycling race when the cyclist has to accelerate (for various reasons - to deal with a break, to sprint to the finish) thus raising the lactate in the legs, the EPO has the effect of maintaining a sub maximal level so the cyclist does not burn out.

Be careful about each step.

All energy comes from ATP. There are a few different ways of getting there. One occurs quickly from rest, with a lot of by products and inefficiency (Glycolosis/anerobic). The other is more efficient, yields more energy but takes longer to get started, and requires oxygen. This path is an extension of the first, when oxygen is present. The byproducts of the first system are used with oxygen for more energy.

This latter is aerobic system for endurance athletes. As intensity increases, the aerobic system cannot produce enough energy, and more energy is demanded from the anaerobic system, resulting in a few by products.

There are so many factors that govern performance that saying one is a limiting factor is a lie.

Energy contribution for each event

Sprinters mostly care about improving max power, speed endurance, in addition to mechanics. Neuromuscular work to increase muscle recruitment, specific strength to make sure their muscles last long enough before fatiguing, and lots of stuff that I don't know precisely.

____________________________________
EPO is a protein. It is a signal for bone marrow to produce red blood cells. At altitude, the body reacts to the stimulus of less oxygen my generating more EPO, in order to generate more rbcs. You can inject EPO to stimulate the production of red blood cells. More RBCs carry more oxygen. (for endurance athletes, an increased capacity for oxygen consumption will keep the body producing energy aerobically, which is more efficient. The contribution from anaerobic path is less, for the same intensity, and the body can use more of the byproducts of the anerobic system for energy at higher intensities. Those byproducts, when left to hang around, are associated with fatigue.

____________________________________

Sprinters love EPO. I'm not a coach, or a physiologist, and can't explain it well. The performance improvements from a sprinter's EPO use also come as a combination from a cocktail, and I am not a pharmacist. Different substance interact to improve each other, which is as deep as I can go. Sprinters don't do it for the aerobic benefits in favor of these additive effects, but I guess that it can increase the workload during practice, improve recovery between heats/sessions, and generally make you feel pretty good.

 

[Nicko.]

Well I understand your point about ATP and it is of course a well taken point when it comes to the 100 metres. I suspect ATP is the sole respiratory process in a 10 second race.

But in any sprint be it 100, 200, 400 and if you consider the 800 a sprint the body is still taking in O2 that has to go somewhere and I am assuming it goes to the red blood cells. So it would seem as the "sprint" distances increase, there is a secondary respiratory process involving VO uptake that would benefit from EPO. At some point the normal respiratory process has to take over from a pure ATP process. Is it at the point where the exercise is no longer anaerobic and becomes aerobic? I don't know.

But is seems to me the two respiratory processes are not mutually exclusive during anaerobic exercise. As you know there are several other respiratory processes, but in the context of this discussion I think ATP and normal oxygen uptake are the only two.

My understanding is that EPO modulates lactate build up. So in a cycling race when the cyclist has to accelerate (for various reasons - to deal with a break, to sprint to the finish) thus raising the lactate in the legs, the EPO has the effect of maintaining a sub maximal level so the cyclist does not burn out.

Your outstanding contribution regarding legal matters is almost eradicated by your misunderstanding of the physiology of athletic performance and doping mechanisms... I'd wager to say you've never been 'elite' anything (?).

The use of EPO by 'sprinters' is the logical extension of the use of testo, HGH, anabolic stereoids and other substances that allows you to train harder/longer/more often. If the body can be manipulated to handle the extreme stress of sprint-related T&F training, recovery between repetions of anaerobic bouts becomes a limiter of maximum sustainable work load.
The EPO is the next step when the other drugs are applied properly.

EPO has nothing to do with the competition per se in sprint events (<~60s).

 

[mikeoneill]

tyson gay gets a hefty 1 year ban


http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/olympics/2014/05/02/tyson-gay-drug-suspension-reduced/8622933/

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Sprinters love EPO. I'm not a coach, or a physiologist, and can't explain it well. The performance improvements from a sprinter's EPO use also come as a combination from a cocktail, and I am not a pharmacist. Different substance interact to improve each other, which is as deep as I can go. Sprinters don't do it for the aerobic benefits in favor of these additive effects, but I guess that it can increase the workload during practice, improve recovery between heats/sessions, and generally make you feel pretty good.

EPO has nothing to do with the competition per se in sprint events (<~60s).

I'll respectfully disagree.

Angiogenesis is the creation of new blood vessels from existing ones.
More blood vessels = better athlete.

EPO causes angiogenesis.

EPO also leads to increased heart muscle production.
Bigger heart = better athlete.

I also found some actual information on the recovery aspects of EPO, they do exist, although I still feel the other benefits like increase in RBCs and the new blood vessels and extra heart muscle trump that aspect.

Keep in mind also: the action of running damages / destroys RBCs. A runner will lose far more RBCs than a cyclist through physical damage of the cells as their feet strike the ground. So any EPO is going to help restore those cells more quickly / keep the tank topped up more reliably.

 

[martinvickers]

tyson gay gets a hefty 1 year ban


http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/olympics/2014/05/02/tyson-gay-drug-suspension-reduced/8622933/

Epstein has a good article, seems to have a lot of the details - apparently trail leads through anti-aging doctor C Gibson III to Jon Drummond, usa relay coach for 2012. Suggestion Gay has coughed up a fair amount of info.

http://www.propublica.org/article/cheat-sheet-the-tyson-gay-file

Not entirely clear whether WADA are going gross negligence/criminal stupidity (see quote from WADA's Howman) or malign intent route - both are kinda hinted at. Hopefully find out shortly, not that it makes a wild pile of difference. But more names are coming, I suspect.

That said, ban is ludicrously short. In effect, 1 month. Makes 6 months for the cyclists seem positively draconian. Ridiculous.

 

[The Hitch]

Even then he managed to get cleared



From his wiki page.

If I recall correctly he was cleared by his national fed, on joke grounds that wouldn't work today. Kind of like contador only without an appeal which brought the ban.

Anyway, him merely failing the test was a victory of sorts. You can be sure heads rolled over some **** like actually allowing a football star to fail a test.

It was never going to go further than that.

 

[blackcat]

I'll respectfully disagree.

Angiogenesis is the creation of new blood vessels from existing ones.
More blood vessels = better athlete.

EPO causes angiogenesis.

EPO also leads to increased heart muscle production.
Bigger heart = better athlete.

I also found some actual information on the recovery aspects of EPO, they do exist, although I still feel the other benefits like increase in RBCs and the new blood vessels and extra heart muscle trump that aspect.

Keep in mind also: the action of running damages / destroys RBCs. A runner will lose far more RBCs than a cyclist through physical damage of the cells as their feet strike the ground. So any EPO is going to help restore those cells more quickly / keep the tank topped up more reliably.

devils advocate: did not Ferrari propose that having too many red cells, for eg, a 60 crit, with blood too thick, would be a negative. more does not always = more.

there is an optimum level where your o2 and red cells, will reconcile with your demand (engine) and its ability to process the o2.

if you cannot exhaust the o2 potential of your aerobic system, pumping around more and thicker blood, is just a hamstring/hamstrung, inhibitor, restriction, on your perfeormance/potential?

no?

qualifercaveat: I am a troglodyte neophyte ignoramus on matters performance science

 

[Dear Wiggo]

There is certainly a diminishing rate of return in using EPO for increasing your RBCs, but the 50% Hct rule means noone's hitting 60% these days anyway.

And I do not think anyone is suggesting that's what sprinters do.

Ongoing microdosing is going to maintain a nice level, and provide some of that new heart muscle / blood vessel growth that is useful.

 

[blackcat]

There is certainly a diminishing rate of return in using EPO for increasing your RBCs, but the 50% Hct rule means noone's hitting 60% these days anyway.

And I do not think anyone is suggesting that's what sprinters do.

Ongoing microdosing is going to maintain a nice level, and provide some of that new heart muscle / blood vessel growth that is useful.

yeah yeah yeah know that 101, i was just offering a devils advocate.

i did not wish to be a spoilsport tho,


<army parade ground voice> as you were

 

[Freddythefrog]

Epstein has a good article, seems to have a lot of the details - apparently trail leads through anti-aging doctor C Gibson III to Jon Drummond, usa relay coach for 2012. Suggestion Gay has coughed up a fair amount of info.

http://www.propublica.org/article/cheat-sheet-the-tyson-gay-file

Not entirely clear whether WADA are going gross negligence/criminal stupidity (see quote from WADA's Howman) or malign intent route - both are kinda hinted at. Hopefully find out shortly, not that it makes a wild pile of difference. But more names are coming, I suspect.

That said, ban is ludicrously short. In effect, 1 month. Makes 6 months for the cyclists seem positively draconian. Ridiculous.

Doping pays - you just have to believe it !

We need Coookson to tell us that, far more than his one month ban, the court of public opinion is far more serious.

The guys at the top have no idea of what this does at grass roots level.

So do the rest of the silver medalists in the 4 x 100 have to give their medals back - perhaps not - it was only a freak show.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

devils advocate: did not Ferrari propose that having too many red cells, for eg, a 60 crit, with blood too thick, would be a negative. more does not always = more.

there is an optimum level where your o2 and red cells, will reconcile with your demand (engine) and its ability to process the o2.

if you cannot exhaust the o2 potential of your aerobic system, pumping around more and thicker blood, is just a hamstring/hamstrung, inhibitor, restriction, on your perfeormance/potential?

no?

qualifercaveat: I am a troglodyte neophyte ignoramus on matters performance science

Right. A good metaphor is thinking about wih is more efficient to transport goods: a road full of full trucks or lightly packed sports cars. More viscous blood is slower, and harder to pump, but carries more.

There are however individual apatations to EPO/hypoxia. A study in 2007 showed elite african runners having hemocrit and hb levels that could be considered anemic. Their adaptation to exercise and altitude was a huge blood/ plasma volume: the a large fleet of lightly packed sports cars from above.

Tibetan and Andean populations' adaptations to altitude include thicker blood with less oxygen saturation, while Ethiopian populations did'nt have thicker blood, but were able to have higher levels of oxygen saturation, suggesting that their adaptaion to altitude came from better abilities to diffuse oxygen from lungs to the blood. Better package handlers instead of big trucks, in order to meet the demands of altitude, to continue the metaphor

 

[Almeisan]

In Fuentes case, his customers were the victims. You protect victims in a legal case. The dopers never broke the law. They only got involved because Fuentes did break the law.

 

[Andynonomous]

I have noticed that the Boston Bruins in the NHL have an astounding amount of stamina late in their hockey games this year. They were flying late in their 2 overtime games this year, and have a pattern of 3rd period comebacks. Their performances remind me very much of Rafael Nadal, and the Spanish national football teams (wear down your opponents, and score late).

The Bruins are a big, strong, and very physical team. I have long suspected strength related PEDS (Growth hormones, steroids, testosterone) have been used in the NHL, and Boston would be a prime example of this.

Usually strength and stamina don't go together however (like a cyclist is either a "sprinter" , or a "climber"). A big physical team like Boston traditionally fatigued more easily than the smaller, and faster teams. We see more and more where this distinction has blurred since PED use has become widespread in sports.

Is extreme strength/acceleration combined with extreme stamina a tell of someone using PEDS ?

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Your outstanding contribution regarding legal matters is almost eradicated by your misunderstanding of the physiology of athletic performance and doping mechanisms... I'd wager to say you've never been 'elite' anything (?).

The use of EPO by 'sprinters' is the logical extension of the use of testo, HGH, anabolic stereoids and other substances that allows you to train harder/longer/more often. If the body can be manipulated to handle the extreme stress of sprint-related T&F training, recovery between repetions of anaerobic bouts becomes a limiter of maximum sustainable work load.
The EPO is the next step when the other drugs are applied properly.

EPO has nothing to do with the competition per se in sprint events (<~60s).

What do you mean when you say - "I'd wager to say you have never been "elite" anything.

I just want to be sure before I respond. I am not sure why you feet it necessary to make such a gratuitously captious comment, other than you seem to be pretty arrogant and egotistical with a penchant for mocking and denigrating people in a sociopathic way. Maybe it makes you feel good or perhaps you are just an a$$hole.

I was merely trying to hypothesize as to how EPO might benefit a sprinter, based on some studies I have read about the physiological effects of EPO. And you seem to interpret that as a license to be beggarly.

What are your qualifications regarding physiology

 

[RobbieCanuck]

More Strides than Rides;1452829]

Be careful about each step etc.

Thanks for the comment

 

[blackcat]

Right. A good metaphor is thinking about wih is more efficient to transport goods: a road full of full trucks or lightly packed sports cars. More viscous blood is slower, and harder to pump, but carries more.

There are however individual apatations to EPO/hypoxia. A study in 2007 showed elite african runners having hemocrit and hb levels that could be considered anemic. Their adaptation to exercise and altitude was a huge blood/ plasma volume: the a large fleet of lightly packed sports cars from above.

Tibetan and Andean populations' adaptations to altitude include thicker blood with less oxygen saturation, while Ethiopian populations did'nt have thicker blood, but were able to have higher levels of oxygen saturation, suggesting that their adaptaion to altitude came from better abilities to diffuse oxygen from lungs to the blood. Better package handlers instead of big trucks, in order to meet the demands of altitude, to continue the metaphor

different levels of intensity produced different adaptations?

in evolution(ary) measurement, the Sherpa adaptation for evolution does not even register an atom sized blip on the radar. (I know you were not involing sherpas with Tibet / Nepal reference)

and I know that Kenyan competition in athletics in marathon, is a similar historical anomaly wrt evolution.

 

[blackcat]

I have noticed that the Boston Bruins in the NHL have an astounding amount of stamina late in their hockey games this year. They were flying late in their 2 overtime games this year, and have a pattern of 3rd period comebacks. Their performances remind me very much of Rafael Nadal, and the Spanish national football teams (wear down your opponents, and score late).

The Bruins are a big, strong, and very physical team. I have long suspected strength related PEDS (Growth hormones, steroids, testosterone) have been used in the NHL, and Boston would be a prime example of this.

Usually strength and stamina don't go together however (like a cyclist is either a "sprinter" , or a "climber"). A big physical team like Boston traditionally fatigued more easily than the smaller, and faster teams. We see more and more where this distinction has blurred since PED use has become widespread in sports.

Is extreme strength/acceleration combined with extreme stamina a tell of someone using PEDS ?

strength v stamina.

you mean, there is rule of thumb, an inverse correlation between these two. because if you have one predisposition, it crowds out the potential for the other.

you need to carry more muscle, or less muscle, you cant have both

 

[Andynonomous]

strength v stamina.

you mean, there is rule of thumb, an inverse correlation between these two. because if you have one predisposition, it crowds out the potential for the other.

you need to carry more muscle, or less muscle, you cant have both

That is exactly what I am saying.

Of course I extrapolate these points to conclude if an athlete shows signs of having both an extremely high level of strength/acceleration and stamina, that there should be some suspicion that they are using peds, since it is not normal to have both. When you have a whole team of players with these suspicious characteristics, then there should be some suspicion that there is team-wide doping (as I suspect for the Boston Bruins).