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Doping in Soccer/Football

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Feb 3, 2013
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Caruut said:
That was the point he was making - it is a lot less physical. Hence football is, to a degree, a physical game.
No, he claimed there were people with better ball control as Messi in futsal, when you can't make that comparison because they are different sports.
 
Feb 12, 2013
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sniper said:
I know tons of guys who play mostly futsal (dunno what's that in english) with the same or better skills than messi. the reason they never make it to field soccer is because they lack the physique.
You've lost all credibility with this comment.

I know a lot of guys faster than Usain Bolt, they're just too fat to get to the track on a daily basis ...
 
Oct 30, 2011
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iejeecee said:
No, he claimed there were people with better ball control as Messi in futsal, when you can't make that comparison because they are different sports.
Why can't you make that comparison? They still both involve controlling the ball with your feet.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Bobito_B said:
You've lost all credibility with this comment.

I know a lot of guys faster than Usain Bolt, they're just too fat to get to the track on a daily basis ...
i think others were able to grasp the thrust of my post though.
 
Aug 18, 2012
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This could turn into a semantic arguement as to what skills are, this guys shows some great skills if you watch the duration of the video yet he's too fat to be playing professionally:

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=t6S87DEWKhI&desktop_uri=/watch?v=t6S87DEWKhI&gl=GB

That said Rooney and Tevez can play professionally whilst being far because they have more functional, practical skills.

David Beckham I view as a skill player probably clean and he has a completely different skillset.

I do think in general though people here have been underestimating the importance of skill.
 
Bobito_B said:
sniper said:
I know tons of guys who play mostly futsal (dunno what's that in english) with the same or better skills than messi. the reason they never make it to field soccer is because they lack the physique.
You've lost all credibility with this comment.

I know a lot of guys faster than Usain Bolt, they're just too fat to get to the track on a daily basis ...
Not really. Football and Futsal are closely related, but different sports. Many skills that are applicable in football are the same ones that are applicable in futsal. The thing is, futsal is less physical and lasts much shorter. Football requires much better cardio (more than twice as long) and durability (more people trying to rough you up and given more freedom to), but the actual ball control skills are the same. Field hockey and Floorball are variations on the same sport, and the same goes for Football and Futsal. Or Arena Football and NFL. That would be a more valid comparison. Guys can go from Arena Football to the NFL if they have the ability (Tommy Maddox, for example, spent a while in AFL before returning to the top level, and more famously Kurt Warner got his break there after going undrafted), but the NFL is much bigger, more challenging, and features more physicality. Only a few Arena Football players can make it on the NFL stage, but there are plenty who can cut through tiny gaps, have all the jukes, jives, spins and all the pace to make it, take great catches, kick extremely accurately.

The futsal guys may be able to pull off the same tricks as Lionel Messi. Some of them may be able to pull off even more impressive ones. But Lionel Messi does it after 89 minutes of running harder and faster against people who can be more physical against him, and that is the real difference.
 
Jul 15, 2010
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Libertine Seguros said:
Bobito_B said:
sniper said:
I know tons of guys who play mostly futsal (dunno what's that in english) with the same or better skills than messi. the reason they never make it to field soccer is because they lack the physique.


Not really. Football and Futsal are closely related, but different sports. Many skills that are applicable in football are the same ones that are applicable in futsal. The thing is, futsal is less physical and lasts much shorter. Football requires much better cardio (more than twice as long) and durability (more people trying to rough you up and given more freedom to), but the actual ball control skills are the same. Field hockey and Floorball are variations on the same sport, and the same goes for Football and Futsal. Or Arena Football and NFL. That would be a more valid comparison. Guys can go from Arena Football to the NFL if they have the ability (Tommy Maddox, for example, spent a while in AFL before returning to the top level, and more famously Kurt Warner got his break there after going undrafted), but the NFL is much bigger, more challenging, and features more physicality. Only a few Arena Football players can make it on the NFL stage, but there are plenty who can cut through tiny gaps, have all the jukes, jives, spins and all the pace to make it, take great catches, kick extremely accurately.

The futsal guys may be able to pull off the same tricks as Lionel Messi. Some of them may be able to pull off even more impressive ones. But Lionel Messi does it after 89 minutes of running harder and faster against people who can be more physical against him, and that is the real difference.
+1

Also, what is "skill"? beating 3 players with close control is "skill," 50 yard pin point passes are "skill". CRs' amazing header just now was "skill." Does doping help your bike handling skills? Same question as football.
 
Aug 18, 2012
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Doping can significantly help your physical presence in the box and allow you to get more spring on your vertical jump to beat your opponent to a header. The skill comes in the accuracy of the header (didn't see the Ronaldo header but I think the first two have helped Ronaldo via doping in the past).

I don't think it's a factor in passes and beating three defenders though.
 
Sep 22, 2012
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Libertine Seguros said:
Dope can't help you make a pinpoint pass and beat three defenders.

But it might help you be able to do it for longer and suffer the effects of fatigue less when trying to do so after 89 minutes of strenuous physical activity.
I agree, it does not give the skill but it helps maintain the ability to perform the skill for longer as you are less tired.
 
Aug 16, 2012
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Libertine Seguros said:
Dope can't help you make a pinpoint pass and beat three defenders.

But it might help you be able to do it for longer and suffer the effects of fatigue less when trying to do so after 89 minutes of strenuous physical activity.
To repeat what I posted earlier if strength, speed and stamina weren't the most important attributes of a professional footballer we'd have them competing in their 40s and 50s. Fact is we don't because their physical level is not high enough any more.
 
Feb 3, 2013
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Libertine Seguros said:
Bobito_B said:
sniper said:
I know tons of guys who play mostly futsal (dunno what's that in english) with the same or better skills than messi. the reason they never make it to field soccer is because they lack the physique.


Not really. Football and Futsal are closely related, but different sports. Many skills that are applicable in football are the same ones that are applicable in futsal. The thing is, futsal is less physical and lasts much shorter. Football requires much better cardio (more than twice as long) and durability (more people trying to rough you up and given more freedom to), but the actual ball control skills are the same. Field hockey and Floorball are variations on the same sport, and the same goes for Football and Futsal. Or Arena Football and NFL. That would be a more valid comparison. Guys can go from Arena Football to the NFL if they have the ability (Tommy Maddox, for example, spent a while in AFL before returning to the top level, and more famously Kurt Warner got his break there after going undrafted), but the NFL is much bigger, more challenging, and features more physicality. Only a few Arena Football players can make it on the NFL stage, but there are plenty who can cut through tiny gaps, have all the jukes, jives, spins and all the pace to make it, take great catches, kick extremely accurately.

The futsal guys may be able to pull off the same tricks as Lionel Messi. Some of them may be able to pull off even more impressive ones. But Lionel Messi does it after 89 minutes of running harder and faster against people who can be more physical against him, and that is the real difference.
You have to take into account that futsal is usually played indoors on a perfectly flat surface. This makes controlling the ball a lot easier as opposed to some random pitch affected by random weather conditions (rain/snow/extreme heat/cold etc). So I wouldn't say that the actual ball control skills are exactly the same.

Also you don't have long passes, barley any headers etc.
 
iejeecee said:
Libertine Seguros said:
Bobito_B said:
You have to take into account that futsal is usually played indoors on a perfectly flat surface. This makes controlling the ball a lot easier as opposed to some random pitch affected by random weather conditions (rain/snow/extreme heat/cold etc). So I wouldn't say that the actual ball control skills are exactly the same.

Also you don't have long passes, barley any headers etc.
And Arena Football is played indoors on a flat artificial surface. It makes kicking easier, makes running easier, there's barely any long passes and certainly nothing of the kind of length you see with real deep throws in the NFL, and there's no weather conditions to deal with. It's still a variation of the same sport, and Kurt Warner could still use the skills he used to be good at Arena Football en route to becoming a future Hall of Fame quarterback in the NFL. He just had to use them differently and develop other parts to the game on top.

Lionel Messi is a better pro football player than top futsal players not necessarily because of having better ball control skills or whatever, but because of having the same skills but a much better adaptability so that he can call upon them for longer, under greater strain, in a range of conditions, against more opponents and still be able to execute them mostly flawlessly. That ability to adapt those skills to a much wider range of situations is a skill in and of itself.

It's like Hitch once said about biathlon when it was being mocked (wrongly, as it's God's chosen sport) by somebody along the lines of "putting a dartboard atop Mont Ventoux", and "I don't care if Usain Bolt can fire arrows or Wayne Rooney can execute a triple salto", that they were forgetting that biathlon is a sport in and of itself, and cross-country skiers don't do it. Yes, cross-country skiing is a skill that both groups share, but only one has to develop the skill of "cross-country skiing as fast as possible whilst still retaining the level of composure required to shoot accurately". The skiing and shooting are two different skills, but it's the third - adapting the one to another - that is the difference-maker.
 
Oct 26, 2012
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del1962 said:
Don't know but when did Ronhaldinho's decline start?
When he started to not give a damn! He was back in the Brazil side last week as he's playing some good stuff in Brazil. God, I used to love watching him. That goal against Chelsea from the edge of the box.....sublime.
 
Jul 15, 2010
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del1962 said:
Don't know but when did Ronhaldinho's decline start?
I would place some serious money on one being Roberto Carlos. Ronnie played for Barcelona so it seems less likely he would be at the clinic in Madrid. Xabi Alonso has been linked with his time at Real Sociedad so it could well be him, as much as that pains me....
 
Jul 15, 2010
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Jul 17, 2012
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Interesting reading the comments here a while back about RvP, got me thinking. 8 seasons at Arsenal, didn't stay fit for an entire one, except the very last one. Has gone on to stay fit at Man Utd, not suspicious in itself per se, but certainly cause for raised eyebrows amongst the Arsenal faithful. I watched the Real/Utd game last night and there was a moment where they re-played him dinking past a couple of defenders and I was amazed by the size and definition of his legs' musculature.

This being a player I have watched for 9 years, and his physique has changed I think. He looks much bulkier, his legs are certainly much bigger, and he generally looks like a street fighter, rather than someone who was described by Arsenal medical staff as having a knee made of glass.

Maybe I have been reading in this place too long, but that physical transformation, coupled with him staying fit, coupled with him forcing a move away from Arsenal, with Wenger being a staunch anti-doper, makes me wonder exactly what his motives were. I also watched Ryan Giggs, 37 years young and looking tough as nails and still very pacey.

It's just a little too good to be true.
 
Apr 20, 2012
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JimmyFingers said:
Interesting reading the comments here a while back about RvP, got me thinking. 8 seasons at Arsenal, didn't stay fit for an entire one, except the very last one. Has gone on to stay fit at Man Utd, not suspicious in itself per se, but certainly cause for raised eyebrows amongst the Arsenal faithful. I watched the Real/Utd game last night and there was a moment where they re-played him dinking past a couple of defenders and I was amazed by the size and definition of his legs' musculature.

This being a player I have watched for 9 years, and his physique has changed I think. He looks much bulkier, his legs are certainly much bigger, and he generally looks like a street fighter, rather than someone who was described by Arsenal medical staff as having a knee made of glass.

Maybe I have been reading in this place too long, but that physical transformation, coupled with him staying fit, coupled with him forcing a move away from Arsenal, with Wenger being a staunch anti-doper, makes me wonder exactly what his motives were. I also watched Ryan Giggs, 37 years young and looking tough as nails and still very pacey.

It's just a little too good to be true.
It is very simple Jim, ManU train harder than they play their matches.

They are very fit.
 

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