Doping in Soccer/Football

[Alphabet]

Whoa. Football is most definitely a skilled game. Lots of people can dribble, but to do what Messi does, at the pace that he does it takes skills of the highest order.

Not any more, it isn't. A guy with a huge engine and great speed is valued far more these days than some flair player. An example would be the death of the number 10, replaced by dozens of Frank Lampard type box-to-box strongmen.

Of course, when it comes to strikers, it's still mostly a skilled game (this doesn't stop man-mountains like Drogba finding immense success and twinkle-toes like Jose Reyes flopping), but everywhere else, brute strength will get you to the top.

 

[Spencer the Half Wit]

Not any more, it isn't. A guy with a huge engine and great speed is valued far more these days than some flair player. An example would be the death of the number 10, replaced by dozens of Frank Lampard type box-to-box strongmen.

Of course, when it comes to strikers, it's still mostly a skilled game (this doesn't stop man-mountains like Drogba finding immense success and twinkle-toes like Jose Reyes flopping), but everywhere else, brute strength will get you to the top.

Er ... Messi, Mata, Carzola, Silva, Ben Arfa guys with huge engines or twinkled toed geniuses?

 

[The Hitch]

If you truly believe this, then you are displaying a mind-boggling lack of understanding of the game.

Ah, Monsieur " I couldn't believe that anyone would be so pathetically petty-minded as to drag up Bep's 10 year old issue, which imho was no big deal."

Welcome.

Unfortunately Im afraid this place is full of people who "demean themselves with such cheap shots at Bep and entirely unsubstantiated allegations about some players from six years ago" and "get their knickers in a twist about 10 years later because the sight of the best football the world has ever seen p!sses them off so much"

Nasty people here.

They may even see "bep's" nandrolone positive and the connections to Puerto as signs of doping.

 

[Amsterhammer]

Ah, Monsieur " I couldn't believe that anyone would be so pathetically petty-minded as to drag up Bep's 10 year old issue, which imho was no big deal."

Welcome.

Unfortunately Im afraid this place is full of people who "demean themselves with such cheap shots at Bep and entirely unsubstantiated allegations about some players from six years ago" and "get their knickers in a twist about 10 years later because the sight of the best football the world has ever seen p!sses them off so much"

Nasty people here.

They may even see "bep's" nandrolone positive and the connections to Puerto as signs of doping.

Good to see that your photographic memory is still sharp, even if your reading comprehension skills seem to be going backwards.

What does any of this have to do with my reply to someone claiming that football is not a game of skill? Whether or not some players dope(d), and if so, on what, is not at issue here.

 

[The Hitch]

Good to see that your photographic memory is still sharp, even if your reading comprehension skills seem to be going backwards.

What does any of this have to do with my reply to someone claiming that football is not a game of skill? Whether or not some players dope(d), and if so, on what, is not at issue here.

Im commenting more on your presence in this thread than on the content of your post. I was just taken aback a bit because you suggested earlier that you wouldn't come to the clinic because you "don't have time for this crap" and don't want to "wind yourself up about stuff from the distant past".

 

[JimmyFingers]

Not any more, it isn't. A guy with a huge engine and great speed is valued far more these days than some flair player. An example would be the death of the number 10, replaced by dozens of Frank Lampard type box-to-box strongmen.

Of course, when it comes to strikers, it's still mostly a skilled game (this doesn't stop man-mountains like Drogba finding immense success and twinkle-toes like Jose Reyes flopping), but everywhere else, brute strength will get you to the top.

Bit simplistic, there is clearly both power AND Skill needed in the game. Arsenal are a good example: the 2004 undefeated side was a powerhouse through and through that played both a muscular direct game allied to skill. More recently Wenger has been buying slighter players, more skillful with a heavy emphasis on technique and passing prowess but lacking the height and power of previous generations. The result is we haven't been winning much.

England's most recent Champions, Man City, are much like the 2004 Arsenal side, playing powerful, direct football and maintaining that intensity for 90 minutes. Barca fall somewhere between: they're not a team of hulks but instead a team of tremendous athletes with almost perfect technique. They are able to play fast, intense possession football, playing vast amounts of passing and pressuring teams high up the pitch when they haven't got the ball.

So a skillful team, but also a style that requires massive physical ability. So while people can claim as a skill-based game there is no need for PEDS, in terms of physical conditioning, stamina and most importantly recovery, it is clears where PEDs will give a football team an advantage.

Someone pointed out Wenger is a very principled man, which meant he has steered away from the Man City and Chelsea route. Given Usamov's shareholding with the club, it is a route we could have easily gone down. I would say he has similar principles when it comes to doping. He certainly isn't shy of broaching the subject: you certainly don't hear mention of it from other major European coaches

 

[Briant_Gumble]

Someone pointed out Wenger is a very principled man, which meant he has steered away from the Man City and Chelsea route. Given Usamov's shareholding with the club, it is a route we could have easily gone down. I would say he has similar principles when it comes to doping. He certainly isn't shy of broaching the subject: you certainly don't hear mention of it from other major European coaches

It's possible that as opposed to 2004 in the current state, it's impossible to be a box to box player or powerhouse whilst clean hence the greater emphasis on technical players.

 

[Bicycle]

Whoa. Football is most definitely a skilled game. Lots of people can dribble, but to do what Messi does, at the pace that he does it takes skills of the highest order.

Football is a skill game - but to be able to execute those skills effectively for 90 minutes you have to be hugely fit, fast and strong - which is where the PEDs come in.

If football were primarily about skill then players would be effective into their 40s and 50s - but they're not because they're no longer fast and/or strong enough.

 

[Amsterhammer]

Im commenting more on your presence in this thread than on the content of your post. I was just taken aback a bit because you suggested earlier that you wouldn't come to the clinic because you "don't have time for this crap" and don't want to "wind yourself up about stuff from the distant past".

Earlier = 18 months ago.

You can probably count the posts I have made in the Clinic since then on your fingers, so no, I don't come here much. I'm certainly shocked to think that I took you aback, dear me. I hope you're ok. I'll be sure to check with you first next time, though.

 

[Bobito_B]

Not any more, it isn't. A guy with a huge engine and great speed is valued far more these days than some flair player. An example would be the death of the number 10, replaced by dozens of Frank Lampard type box-to-box strongmen.
.

^ This is why England can't win internationally.

 

[Bobito_B]

A few days ago now Real Sociedad's ex-president denounced them for having had a teamwide doping program, and explicitly linked them to Fuentes. Since then every day the papers in Spain have had articles in which Xabi Alonso has denied that Real Sociedad (his original club) ever had a doping program.

Sounds familiar.

 

[JimmyFingers]

It's possible that as opposed to 2004 in the current state, it's impossible to be a box to box player or powerhouse whilst clean hence the greater emphasis on technical players.

It may well be the case, it may even be the reason he shipped out some players that seemed to have plenty left to offer

 

[Alphabet]

^ This is why England can't win internationally.

And other nations, as well. No country has a number 10 anymore, even flair players such as Bale and Ronaldo owe a lot of their effectiveness to physique. They're good because they can run with pace and power in a straight line and smash the ball when they take a shot.

Spain are a bit of an oddity, in that their team isn't filled with strong players (although they have outstanding stamina), but even for all the talk of them being some kind of footballing demigods, they aren't a team with a number 10.

I still think my point stands, as evidenced by players like Salomon Kalou and Ramires winning European Cup medals. Ramires is the archetype of the modern footballer- strong, very fast, great stamina, mixed with a reasonable amount of technique, but take away his physical attributes and he's barely good enough to be a professional. His career will almost certainly hit a rapid downturn in his early 30s as his physicality deserts him. Another example would be Michael Essien. While more technically blessed than Ramires, his career has also been shot on account of those crippling ACL injuries he suffered which have ended his once all-consuming physicality.

I don't think it's been fair to call football for the past decade (I make the cut-off point to be when the careers of guys like Zidane, Veron and Riquelme ended/petered out) a skill sport, it's morphed into one where players who work hard on the pitch and have huge muscles to boot are king, aside from a few exceptions like Pirlo. The attacking midfielder as a position, the one which demands technical brilliance above all else has been lost, replaced by strong wingers, hardworking box-to-box midfielders and the odd Xavi type player who can keep the ball well.

Since that cut-off point I mentioned, the only player I can think of who was successful despite having no physical presence whatsoever, would be Filippo Inzaghi.

 

[slowspoke]

And other nations, as well. No country has a number 10 anymore, even flair players such as Bale and Ronaldo owe a lot of their effectiveness to physique. They're good because they can run with pace and power in a straight line and smash the ball when they take a shot.

Spain are a bit of an oddity, in that their team isn't filled with strong players (although they have outstanding stamina), but even for all the talk of them being some kind of footballing demigods, they aren't a team with a number 10.

I still think my point stands, as evidenced by players like Salomon Kalou and Ramires winning European Cup medals. Ramires is the archetype of the modern footballer- strong, very fast, great stamina, mixed with a reasonable amount of technique, but take away his physical attributes and he's barely good enough to be a professional. His career will almost certainly hit a rapid downturn in his early 30s as his physicality deserts him. Another example would be Michael Essien. While more technically blessed than Ramires, his career has also been shot on account of those crippling ACL injuries he suffered which have ended his once all-consuming physicality.

I don't think it's been fair to call football for the past decade (I make the cut-off point to be when the careers of guys like Zidane, Veron and Riquelme ended/petered out) a skill sport, it's morphed into one where players who work hard on the pitch and have huge muscles to boot are king, aside from a few exceptions like Pirlo. The attacking midfielder as a position, the one which demands technical brilliance above all else has been lost, replaced by strong wingers, hardworking box-to-box midfielders and the odd Xavi type player who can keep the ball well.

Since that cut-off point I mentioned, the only player I can think of who was successful despite having no physical presence whatsoever, would be Filippo Inzaghi.

Dimitar Berbatov.

 

[Spencer the Half Wit]

And other nations, as well. No country has a number 10 anymore, even flair players such as Bale and Ronaldo owe a lot of their effectiveness to physique. They're good because they can run with pace and power in a straight line and smash the ball when they take a shot.

Spain are a bit of an oddity, in that their team isn't filled with strong players (although they have outstanding stamina), but even for all the talk of them being some kind of footballing demigods, they aren't a team with a number 10.

I still think my point stands, as evidenced by players like Salomon Kalou and Ramires winning European Cup medals. Ramires is the archetype of the modern footballer- strong, very fast, great stamina, mixed with a reasonable amount of technique, but take away his physical attributes and he's barely good enough to be a professional. His career will almost certainly hit a rapid downturn in his early 30s as his physicality deserts him. Another example would be Michael Essien. While more technically blessed than Ramires, his career has also been shot on account of those crippling ACL injuries he suffered which have ended his once all-consuming physicality.

I don't think it's been fair to call football for the past decade (I make the cut-off point to be when the careers of guys like Zidane, Veron and Riquelme ended/petered out) a skill sport, it's morphed into one where players who work hard on the pitch and have huge muscles to boot are king, aside from a few exceptions like Pirlo. The attacking midfielder as a position, the one which demands technical brilliance above all else has been lost, replaced by strong wingers, hardworking box-to-box midfielders and the odd Xavi type player who can keep the ball well.

Since that cut-off point I mentioned, the only player I can think of who was successful despite having no physical presence whatsoever, would be Filippo Inzaghi.

Football, like everything else has evolved. In the last twenty to thirty years there has been more emphasis on strong powerful athletes, as by and large, a well drilled, well organised team of athletes will, more times than not, beat a team of more skillful but less athletic team. That is not to say there is/was no room for a Zola, Bergkamp, Berbatov, Ben Arfa et al.

What we have now is the Spanish producing highly technical skillful players who are also superb athletes. Whether this is chemically aided is open to question, but to say that Football is not a skill game is jumping the shark.

 

[iejeecee]

There are still highly skilled non physical number 10's in the game. We (the dutch) have Sneijder, and now Adam Maher.

Also I don't see why a non physical number 10 is the paragon of skill in football. There are many other extremely skilled players in different positions that play in a non-physical way. E.g. Aguero, Suarez and of course Messi just to name a few.

 

[Bobito_B]

And other nations, as well. No country has a number 10 anymore, even flair players such as Bale and Ronaldo owe a lot of their effectiveness to physique. They're good because they can run with pace and power in a straight line and smash the ball when they take a shot.

Spain are a bit of an oddity, in that their team isn't filled with strong players (although they have outstanding stamina), but even for all the talk of them being some kind of footballing demigods, they aren't a team with a number 10.

I still think my point stands, as evidenced by players like Salomon Kalou and Ramires winning European Cup medals. Ramires is the archetype of the modern footballer- strong, very fast, great stamina, mixed with a reasonable amount of technique, but take away his physical attributes and he's barely good enough to be a professional. His career will almost certainly hit a rapid downturn in his early 30s as his physicality deserts him. Another example would be Michael Essien. While more technically blessed than Ramires, his career has also been shot on account of those crippling ACL injuries he suffered which have ended his once all-consuming physicality.

I don't think it's been fair to call football for the past decade (I make the cut-off point to be when the careers of guys like Zidane, Veron and Riquelme ended/petered out) a skill sport, it's morphed into one where players who work hard on the pitch and have huge muscles to boot are king, aside from a few exceptions like Pirlo. The attacking midfielder as a position, the one which demands technical brilliance above all else has been lost, replaced by strong wingers, hardworking box-to-box midfielders and the odd Xavi type player who can keep the ball well.

Since that cut-off point I mentioned, the only player I can think of who was successful despite having no physical presence whatsoever, would be Filippo Inzaghi.

The view from Spain is very different. Our model footballer is Iniesta.

 

[sniper]

There are still highly skilled non physical number 10's in the game. We (the dutch) have Sneijder, and now Adam Maher.

Also I don't see why a non physical number 10 is the paragon of skill in football. There are many other extremely skilled players in different positions that play in a non-physical way. E.g. Aguero, Suarez and of course Messi just to name a few.

what definition of non-physical are you applying?
Messi is the most physical player in the world when it comes to accelleration capacity, for instance.
accelleration capacity has little to do with technique, and has potentially a lot to gain from doping.

 

[iejeecee]

what definition of non-physical are you applying?
Messi is the most physical player in the world when it comes to accelleration capacity, for instance.
accelleration capacity has little to do with technique, and has potentially a lot to gain from doping.

I don't think you can define any of these vague terms like skill, and physicality (though it's still fun to discuss them ).

Messi may be aided somehow in his acceleration, but it takes a lot of technical skill to control the ball at that speed. So if we define ball control as something non-physical/skill based, Messi is clearly up there with the best of all time.

 

[sniper]

I don't think you can define any of these vague terms like skill, and physicality (though it's still fun to discuss them ).

Messi may be aided somehow in his acceleration, but it takes a lot of technical skill to control the ball at that speed. So if we define ball control as something non-physical/skill based, Messi is clearly up there with the best of all time.

I know tons of guys who play mostly futsal (dunno what's that in english) with the same or better skills than messi. the reason they never make it to field soccer is because they lack the physique.

messi is a physical miracle perhaps more than a technical miracle.
though we agree probably that physique and technique strongly correlate.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Maradona was quite open about his usage of steroids in order to bulk up when a teenager.

I've got an old interview with him from c1985 where he talks about how his family 'gave him steroids to make him bigger'.

 

[iejeecee]

I know tons of guys who play mostly futsal (dunno what's that in english) with the same or better skills than messi. the reason they never make it to field soccer is because they lack the physique.

messi is a physical miracle perhaps more than a technical miracle.
though we agree probably that physique and technique strongly correlate.

I don't think you can compare futsal with football. They are different sports. I'm no futsal expert, but afaik you don't have people making slidings and such. And in general it's probably a lot less physical. Who knows what Messi would do in such a environment, if he didn't have to worry about people constantly barging into him.

 

[Caruut]

Guys, seriously, let's be reasonable here. We all know that the vast majority of players at the top level require levels of both skill and athleticism that are mind-boggling when compared to the general population. We can all name a Carlos Valderrama, a Xavi or a Dimitar Berbatov as players who practically play the game walking, but they are three examples in the last 20 years. Realistically it is a game that needs skill and athleticism. Even Berbatov can run when he wants to and Ramires doesn't have bad technique, really.

We should also be wary of falling into the trap of assuming that Spain's game is not at all physical. Villa, Torres, Pedro, Iniesta et al are all rapid. Really, really quick players, and not just quick but agile with fast acceleration, too. There is a physical element to their game, but most commentators seem to view beating people with excess pace to be somehow more "pure" than beating them with excess strength. To the poster who said Drogba was not a skilled player - that is patently untrue. It is a sign of worrying racism among the football establishment that African players like him are treating as "powerhouses" when in fact he has technique so fine it would put the vast majority of European players to shame. I am not accusing the poster of racism - when you hear commentators and journalists say that the whole time it is so easy to believe (I did for ages).

Huge respect for Wenger for his comments - can anyone think of a coach or manager in any other sport who has been so prominent and spoken out so far ahead of the times? Only Zdenek Zeman holds a candle to him in football, but Wenger has been making these comments for years and has long been recognised as one of the top football managers in the world. Wenger's remarks indicate to me that there must be a problem, but they really aren't being reported enough. The media are clearly complicit in this great deception, whether it be because they are fans and don't want to believe it or for commercial reasons. Either way, a top football manager talking about a hugely taboo subject is one of the biggest news stories in football of recent times, in my view.

 

[Caruut]

I know tons of guys who play mostly futsal (dunno what's that in english) with the same or better skills than messi. the reason they never make it to field soccer is because they lack the physique.

messi is a physical miracle perhaps more than a technical miracle.
though we agree probably that physique and technique strongly correlate.

Futsal.

Chars.

 

[Caruut]

I don't think you can compare futsal with football. They are different sports. I'm no futsal expert, but afaik you don't have people making slidings and such. And in general it's probably a lot less physical. Who knows what Messi would do in such a environment, if he didn't have to worry about people constantly barging into him.

That was the point he was making - it is a lot less physical. Hence football is, to a degree, a physical game.