Doping in Soccer/Football

[JimmyFingers]

If I was to defend RVP here, I would say that this is probably the longest I ever remember him not being injured for and, also, he's 29 now....I put on a couple of kilos of muscle when I physically matured between the age of 27-30 from nothing more than a lot of running and a bit of cycling (I'm no adonis but I remember looking in the mirror a couple of years ago and thinking jaysis, that's not a bad set of shoulders I have now And I did no weights, just running) . Could explain it.

Could explain it, but you could flip that and say he's got access to a more nefarious medical programme at Man Utd, and has bulked up because of it, which in turn has made him less prone to the physical damage that he was so susceptible earlier in his career.

But he didn't celebrate when he scored against us so I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

[JimmyFingers]

touré tested positive at city after a move from arsenal.
but that doesn't conclusively show anything either way, i assume.

i'm hard pressed though to think arsenal are clean.
i think their results correspond more or less to their budget (but I could be wrong)

Arsenal are one of the most traditionally minded of all the top English clubs, which may not mean too much, but if there is doping I'd say it is most likely to be players doing it themselves.

But I am bias. And I could be wrong as well.

 

[Briant_Gumble]

Arsenal are one of the most traditionally minded of all the top English clubs, which may not mean too much, but if there is doping I'd say it is most likely to be players doing it themselves.

But I am bias. And I could be wrong as well.

I would agree with this but I don't know if its true. Wenger considers himself on a higher moral plane than a lot of managers and gets ridiculed for it due to Arsenals disciplinary record but might make up for it with this.

 

[hrotha]

Let us not forget this isn't the first time Wenger speaks out about doping practices going on in football.

 

[Spencer the Half Wit]

Let us not forget this isn't the first time Wenger speaks out about doping practices going on in football.

Can't find the link but didn't he call for EPO testing in 2003 and mentioned signing players from the continent who had "suspicious" blood levels that soon returned to normal after a couple of months? This was about the time he signed Fabregas from Barca. Coincidence?

 

[JimmyFingers]

Can't find the link but didn't he call for EPO testing in 2003 and mentioned signing players from the continent who had "suspicious" blood levels that soon returned to normal after a couple of months? This was about the time he signed Fabregas from Barca. Coincidence?

You'd hope not: Fabregas was 16 when he signed for Arsenal

 

[iejeecee]

Interesting post on a Dutch football web page. Apparently Robin van Persie mentioned he has gained 4kg additional muscle power since joining Manchester United. He says this is not because of extra weight lifting, but that he became super-fit by himself.

http://www.voetbalzone.nl/doc.asp?uid=181982

One has to wonder how it is possible to gain 4kg of muscle in half a year, without additional weight lifting. If true this seems more than a little bit dodgy to me. What is Man United doing that Arsenal is not? Or alternatively what has van Persie started doing?

Van Persie also claimed during a interview before the recent Italy friendly, that his recovery was super fast. And that he could easily play three games a week.

When it comes to doping, recovery is one of the key benefits. So for him to emphasize on that, and say it in such a way that it sounded like this was something new for him, made me frown a bit.

Also united have Scholes and Giggs at what age now? 38 or 39? I'm sure they are model pro's, yadda yadda. But to still have a important role at the best club in England, in a league that prides itself on being the most physical and fast paced in the world. It reeks of "Milan Lab" to me.

 

[Spencer the Half Wit]

You'd hope not: Fabregas was 16 when he signed for Arsenal

Indeed, but Barca were not shy in giving a teenage Messi growth hormones. Not that that was illegal, I think.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Let us not forget this isn't the first time Wenger speaks out about doping practices going on in football.

Could you elaborate that?

I know Zdenek Zeman did but Wenger? He is known for his whining at referees we all know...

 

[Spencer the Half Wit]

Could you elaborate that?

I know Zdenek Zeman did but Wenger? He is known for his whining at referees we all know...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/2460625.stm

I can't find the link for the interview with Wegner when he talked about stricter testing, but it's mentioned in the article above.

 

[del1962]

Van Persie also claimed during a interview before the recent Italy friendly, that his recovery was super fast. And that he could easily play three games a week.

When it comes to doping, recovery is one of the key benefits. So for him to emphasize on that, and say it in such a way that it sounded like this was something new for him, made me frown a bit.

Also united have Scholes and Giggs at what age now? 38 or 39? I'm sure they are model pro's, yadda yadda. But to still have a important role at the best club in England, in a league that prides itself on being the most physical and fast paced in the world. It reeks of "Milan Lab" to me.

Which club did that England Centre Half who missed three drug tests and whuch English club was the Portugese coacj who obstructed drugs testers asscociated with

 

[JimmyFingers]

Indeed, but Barca were not shy in giving a teenage Messi growth hormones. Not that that was illegal, I think.

It's interesting that after Barca made such a hoo-ha about getting Fabregas back he's a benchwarmer now. Perhaps he developed some morals and doesn't want to go onto the inner-core 'programme'

 

[JimmyFingers]

Also united have Scholes and Giggs at what age now? 38 or 39? I'm sure they are model pro's, yadda yadda. But to still have a important role at the best club in England, in a league that prides itself on being the most physical and fast paced in the world. It reeks of "Milan Lab" to me.

Which club did that England Centre Half who missed three drug tests and whuch English club was the Portugese coacj who obstructed drugs testers asscociated with

These things I hadn't really considered or didn't know. Ferdinand's missed test was considered an example of the player's stupidity rather than guilt of doping, even by opposing fans. Which is telling considering how nasty and personal fans can be to players of opposing teams. Pretty sure no-one came up with any 'Ferdinand's a doper' songs.

Definite head in the sand there, it's not regarded as a problem in the sport by the people who follow it.

 

[Spencer the Half Wit]

It's interesting that after Barca made such a hoo-ha about getting Fabregas back he's a benchwarmer now. Perhaps he developed some morals and doesn't want to go onto the inner-core 'programme'

To be fair though he has got xavi and iniesta ahead of him in the pecking order. So even if he is on the same "program" as them he wouldn't be first choice.

 

[Alphabet]

Yeah, take a look at doping threads on football forums, laughably denialist. "What would footballers need PEDs for? It's a skill game."

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Yeah, take a look at doping threads on football forums, laughably denialist. "What would footballers need PEDs for? It's a skill game."

It was, even Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, van Basten, Best, pick a name would not be able to play nowadays. Right.

 

[Alphabet]

Assuming we treat pre-blood doping football the same as we do pre-blood doping cycling, then I can't really see reasons to deny the greatness of Pele et al. Since they played in an era where the most they could have done were anabolics or amphetamines, I think it's fair to call their success 'clean' and laud them for it, instead of arguing that the HGH wonderkid is better than the lot of them combined.

Incidentally I really hate this 'skill sport' argument. There's no such thing as a skill sport, unless you count chess and video gaming as sports. Everything else has a major aspect of physicality involved.

 

[Alphabet]

Incidentally I really hate this 'skill game' argument. There's no such thing as a skill sport, unless you count chess and video gaming as sports.

 

[del1962]

I think that skillful players who are clean will still be great footballers, however they will be not as good physically as those who dope, the thing about football is you cannot take a donkey and make him a racehorse with dope, but you can take a decent horse and make them a better horse, so the temptation is there, especially teamwide.

So say George Best or Gazza would still be a star, but not quite as shining stars as in their day.

 

[The Hitch]

These things I hadn't really considered or didn't know. Ferdinand's missed test was considered an example of the player's stupidity rather than guilt of doping, even by opposing fans. Which is telling considering how nasty and personal fans can be to players of opposing teams.
.

Football fans know even less about doping than cycling fans. They all.believe the tests are for recreational drugs anyway - which in.a way they are. I don't think any of them considered for a second footballers would.dope.

There was an article posted here some 2 years back by some football journo who knew nothing about doping and said he didn't think Ferdinand or any football players, dope, but asked why Ferdinand missed the test.

Underneath in the comment section, hundreds of comments were not just brutaly insulting him and his kin, but threatening his physical wellbeing.

 

[iejeecee]

I think that skillful players who are clean will still be great footballers, however they will be not as good physically as those who dope, the thing about football is you cannot take a donkey and make him a racehorse with dope, but you can take a decent horse and make them a better horse, so the temptation is there, especially teamwide.

So say George Best or Gazza would still be a star, but not quite as shining stars as in their day.

It's not only physicality that improves with doping.

On the whole "it's a game of skill" argument, and that "you cannot improve skill with doping".

What does improve skill?

repeated practice

What does doping allow?

Longer practice, harder practice, less downtime.

Ergo: Doping improves skill.

The mere fact that Messi "never" gets injured and is able to play far more games as lets say, a Van Persie at Arsenal, means he is able to gain a tremendous amount of experience. Which in turn greatly helps him to accelerate his learning progress in all aspects of football.

 

[The Hitch]

Assuming we treat pre-blood doping football the same as we do pre-blood doping cycling, then I can't really see reasons to deny the greatness of Pele et al. Since they played in an era where the most they could have done were anabolics or amphetamines, I think it's fair to call their success 'clean' and laud them for it, instead of arguing that the HGH wonderkid is better than the lot of them combined.

Incidentally I really hate this 'skill sport' argument. There's no such thing as a skill sport, unless you count chess and video gaming as sports. Everything else has a major aspect of physicality involved.

I recall.it being posted.on here once that beckanbauer if not cruyff openly admitted to taking amphetamines in their age just like cyclists of the time openly did.

I think that skillful players who are clean will still be great footballers, however they will be not as good physically as those who dope, the thing about football is you cannot take a donkey and make him a racehorse with dope, but you can take a decent horse and make them a better horse, so the temptation is there, especially teamwide.

So say George Best or Gazza would still be a star, but not quite as shining stars as in their day.

But competition is a thousand fold in football compared to.other sports. So while the doping may not give as big a boost over a player of similar ability, the number of players of similar ability will be very very high, so that small boost will prove sufficient to jump the line in.a big way.

There are also.more areas you can work in doping than in cycling anyway which is mainly the endurance.

In football you can work the stamina to start with and its key in the top.level games to have players that fight for the ball the full 90 and.do.it again twice a week.all season. But the physical strength and bulking up is even more.important in today's game. Then there's the speed. Having your player take a second off his 50 yard dash speed is the difference between him scoring 2 and 20.goals a season.

Injury prevention is the final wheel, again more important than in this thing of ours, because you are getting hit all the time and aggravating injuries little by little just by getting into tackles, or even running.

 

[Alphabet]

Football is most certainly not a skill game. There are hundreds of kids running around the world with better dribbling ability/potential dribbling ability than Messi, but they'll never make it even as a semi-pro as they don't have the physique for it.

 

[Spencer the Half Wit]

Football is most certainly not a skill game. There are hundreds of kids running around the world with better dribbling ability/potential dribbling ability than Messi, but they'll never make it even as a semi-pro as they don't have the physique for it.

Whoa. Football is most definitely a skilled game. Lots of people can dribble, but to do what Messi does, at the pace that he does it takes skills of the highest order.

 

[Amsterhammer]

Football is most certainly not a skill game.

If you truly believe this, then you are displaying a mind-boggling lack of understanding of the game.