Doping in XC skiing

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neineinei said:
Biathlon:

Interview with Wolfgang Pichler:

http://www.sports.ru/tribuna/blogs/russiateam/715464.html (Russian)
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=no&ie=UTF-8&u=http://www.sports.ru/tribuna/blogs/russiateam/715464.html&edit-text= (Google translate)

Describes a paralel group to his, initated by the ministry.

Some World Cup-names of the 'alternative team': Olga Vilukhina, Irina Starykh, Ekaterina Iourieva, Daria Virolaynen, Olga Podchufarova
Damn, I like Podchufarova.

This doesn't surprise me at all (and to a great extent it coincides with the Vladimir Korol'kevich group - who has taken over overall control from Pichler partway through the season, with the 'three groups with Pichler in overall control' moving to 'three groups with Korol'kevich in overall control'... especially fishy considering he had been in charge of the Ukrainian women's team that peaked so perfectly for the World Championships the previous year).

But what does surprise me is that Vilukhina is in there. She was part of Pichler's training group (that was Olga Zaitseva, Olga Vilukhina, Iana Romanova, Ekaterina Glazyrina, Ekaterina Shumilova and Svetlana Sleptsova if I remember correctly, so basically the core of the World Cup team, plus the enigma that is Sleptsova, who Pichler has suggested at various times is an obvious former doper but also a legitimate talent who requires a lot of effort to handle).

There was also some weirdness during the season about the replacement athlete for Starykh when she went positive after being nominated for the Olympics. If I remember rightly, despite Zagoruiko and Nazarova having better results they wanted to name Galina Nechkasova, but for some reason the IOC wouldn't allow it so they went with Nazarova instead. But then, Russian selection policies have been bonkers for years, with politics playing into things a lot, impatience of coaches, depth of squads and so on, so I didn't think too much of it at the time (although Starykh going from bit-part IBU Cup player to World Cup podium in an Olympic year was a bit too obvious if they're honest about it... Virolaynen also wound up on the podium of her very first World Cup race, although that was the really bizarre race won by the Austrian woman after some dramatic changes in conditions). I remember them at the Ruhpolding World Championships dropping Makoveev from the Individual (he had two weeks earlier won the last Individual raced on the World Cup) in order to start an injured Evgeniy Ustyugov who clearly didn't want or expect to be there. Why?!
 
Apr 22, 2012
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It took less than one day to get so ill for Eckhoff that she couldn't start pursuit from third place. And it took (only) four days to get healthy.
I predict her not to be fastest one anymore.
 
Perhaps we should not look as frowned upon the likes of Starykh "peaking" when they're supposed to.
Perhaps the speedy contenders she joined were on the program all along, Starykh was just late to the party, making it too obvious or impossible to protect her?

If doping Russian, of which we hae plenty, still at best join the top, not give them a whoop-azz, this is strange. As strange as Norway dominating through the 90's on supposed ski prep.
Have an individual ski race, and at the finish you'll be assigned same-binding skis from under a fellow athlete in the same weight class. Now you do a pursuit race, or just a second race to come o a final classification. Take friggin' ski prep out of the equation. It gave Norway a perfect excuse all this time.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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...regarding the neinei posted interview with pichler and the LScomments ...

to be clear, i do not follow the sport of biathlon closely. thus, what pichler did or said regarding the sport, i can not judge from the point of deep knowledge b/c i only come across him sporadically. and even then, only b/c i regularly peruse the general german media.

my attitude toward the man could have been summarized as btwn curious and positive. positive, mainly b/c i still believe he did try to achieve clean results. curious, b/c he seemed a straight talker...but this interview had cast some doubt. explaining...

when i read something - anything - i usually (almost automatically) analyze it for consistency both with its own context and the knowledge base or an opinion i have developed about the subject. so, in this interview pichler clearly came across as a much smaller man he appeared to me before.

specifically, on at least 3 occasions he imo was disingenuous, petty/vengeful and perhaps a deliberate liar.

1stly, he accused the 'system', the ministry for sport of facilitating the doping (which is plausible and no surprise by itself) while flatly denying that the president of the fed, the main sponsor of the sport in the country and his defacto employer - the billioner prochorov knew of doping. in russia - IMPOSSIBLE ! the old bavarian fox was and still is riding the prochorov gravy train and is too smart to bite the feeding hand.

2ndly, when told that sleptsova (his girl) and the other girls in his group complained of his system, he immoderately turned the conversation to what a loser sleptsova had turned out to be. all THAT after swearing loyalty to those he worked with:rolleyes:

3dly, when reminded that his loyal team interpreter rostovtsov (the undisputed doper in his own time) had spit in the face of a popular tv commentator very critical of pichler, the bavarian fox turned street dog said, (loose interpretation) 'not enough, he should have hit him in the face':eek:
i am not going to mention his petty, vengeful comments about his other enemies like the ibu president-candidate tichonov etc..

pichler IS a smaller man he's trying to project and thus his words about doping in my book have lost weight...
 
Kokoso said:
It took less than one day to get so ill for Eckhoff that she couldn't start pursuit from third place. And it took (only) four days to get healthy.
I predict her not to be fastest one anymore.
Eckhoff was 3rd fastest in last week's sprint and 4th fastest in this week's sprint. That doesn't seem like much of a drop. Soukalová's a lot faster this week than last though - 19th fastest in Hochfilzen, 3rd fastest today. There are plenty of good reasons for that regarding her training mileage and so on, but it could be misleading if I don't note other things around that, no? Why so big on Eckhoff? I noticed at the Olympics too, it was pointed out to you that you were attacking Landertinger's "out of nowhere" silver in the sprint, when he'd been top 10 of 7 straight World Cup races before that, but you had nothing at all to say about Soukup, whose Maksimov-like Worlds/Olympics peaking should pique far more interest.

Maybe there's something in that Eckhoff last year picked up a lot of results like Landertinger does - getting lots of performances on the edges of the top 10 without really being picked up by cameras or commentators, so that when she appears up near the top of the World Cup standings it's a bit of a surprise to learn she's got there (take the 2012-13 season and the Germans. Henkel was 3rd in the overall with only one or two podiums all year, Gössner had 3 wins and 3 podiums in dramatic style, but was only 9th because other times she had terrible races); I had the same with Ryder Hesjedal in the cycling, I had no idea how good his palmarès had got before that Giro because apart from the Tour top 10 he'd got most of it just by accumulation. Tiril spending the summer being focused on as team leader and improving her ski speed by a couple of percentage points has made her much more noticeable. Landertinger accumulated good results without being seen much; Soukup only pops his head up once in a while but is memorable when he does.
Cloxxki said:
Perhaps we should not look as frowned upon the likes of Starykh "peaking" when they're supposed to.
Perhaps the speedy contenders she joined were on the program all along, Starykh was just late to the party, making it too obvious or impossible to protect her?
It's not so much about frowning upon the likes of Starykh for doping, it's for being too obvious about it. It's the same in cycling, you'll see it from within the péloton. There's a lot more resentment for those who look obvious than those who are more subtle. The strength in depth in Russia means that there's already problems before you add the politics to the mix; so many athletes vying for only a few selection spaces at the Olympics means you've got to be getting the results; Starykh had been so nondescript before, and was then so visible, that it would be no surprise that she tripped the wire, so to speak. If that's because she was late to the party and only started doping comparatively late, or because she took a riskier dose with the Olympics in mind, is a question of interpretation; the problem was that she was too late to the party for it to be bought as an increase in level (if she'd been building stronger results for much of the prior season as well, for example), but too soon to the party for it to be a one-day out-of-nowhere power-of-the-Olympic-spirit type performance either. Obviously it's a fine line.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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Kokoso said:
It took less than one day to get so ill for Eckhoff that she couldn't start pursuit from third place. And it took (only) four days to get healthy.
I predict her not to be fastest one anymore.
Apparently I was wrong.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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Libertine Seguros said:
Eckhoff was 3rd fastest in last week's sprint and 4th fastest in this week's sprint. That doesn't seem like much of a drop. I noticed at the Olympics too, it was pointed out to you that you were attacking Landertinger's "out of nowhere" silver in the sprint, when he'd been top 10 of 7 straight World Cup races before that, but you had nothing at all to say about Soukup, whose Maksimov-like Worlds/Olympics peaking should pique far more interest.
Lsndertinger is Austrian and they are suspicious. Drops and rises of form...it's case of Landertinger too.
Soukup has good result once in a while (when he has no broken leg or arm) and when he shoots good. But he's fast in other races and when you are fast...and have good shooting day, anything can happen - look at Lars Berger. But I agree he can be considerd suspicious.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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Libertine Seguros said:
Eckhoff was 3rd fastest in last week's sprint and 4th fastest in this week's sprint. That doesn't seem like much of a drop.
And I still say that it's really unusual for girl of Tiril's stature to be so good skier. Look at Henkel you've mentioned.
 
Kokoso said:
Lsndertinger is Austrian and they are suspicious. Drops and rises of form...it's case of Landertinger too.
Soukup has good result once in a while (when he has no broken leg or arm) and when he shoots good. But he's fast in other races and when you are fast...and have good shooting day, anything can happen - look at Lars Berger. But I agree he can be considerd suspicious.
But at the time of the Olympics, Landertinger was about as consistent in his form as you can be.

I'm just pointing out, you follow the Czech team, so you know the reasons why there are some drastic improvements. Soukalová in 2012, Moravec over the course of 2012-13, Vitková's ski speed this off-season and Soukup's World Champs/Olympic out-of-nowhere medals (he has 3 career podiums, one at the Worlds and one at the Olympics. Maxim Maksimov says hi) all tick the suspicious boxes if you don't have the info.

And those improvements are much more marked than the ones that you seem to have a bee in your bonnet about (Landertinger, Eckhoff), and with the exception of Moravec, more sudden (Eckhoff's rise from bit part player in the Norwegian women's squad to one of the best in the world has taken from the middle of the 2012-13 season to now). Maybe if you followed Landertinger or Eckhoff more closely you might find reasons for these developments, just as you have shown outsiders like me reasons for the improvements in the Czechs.
 
Kokoso said:
And I still say that it's really unusual for girl of Tiril's stature to be so good skier. Look at Henkel you've mentioned.
And the problem that we have is that we disagree over your interpretation of her stature.

Besides, look at the XC specialists. It would be pretty tough to find somebody whose stature is less like Bjørgen and Kowalczyk than Johaug, but those are the top 3. Even in the biathlon, Neuner and Gössner are close friends who had the same trainer and set dozens of fastest course times; Neuner is a strong girl who skis with long, powerful strokes, Gössner is rail-thin and skis with a fast turnover of shorter strides. Very, very dissimilar skiers, similar course times.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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Libertine Seguros said:
And the problem that we have is that we disagree over your interpretation of her stature.
BMI interprets itself. You don't need another interpretation. Or just comparison of her leg to Tarjei's is enough. For me at least. She has relatively thick legs. I still consider it prove of that she is no slender, or slim, or whatever word is used.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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Kokoso said:
BMI interprets itself. You don't need another interpretation. Or just comparison of her leg to Tarjei's is enough. For me at least. She has relatively thick legs. I still consider it prove of that she is no slender, or slim, or whatever word is used.
She has very similar body type as Kalla, except Kalla probably has more muscles and Tiril more fat. Kalla is no "tiny" girl. Maybe these days biathlon and xc are no longer endurance sports and my opinion is thus biased.
 
Kokoso said:
BMI interprets itself. You don't need another interpretation. Or just comparison of her leg to Tarjei's is enough. For me at least. She has relatively thick legs. I still consider it prove of that she is no slender, or slim, or whatever word is used.
BMI is extremely height-dependent. And if you compare people of the same sex and height, you may as well use weight itself as comparison.
For tall people a low BMI is impossible to achieve even if they are slim and toned. Short people can have a lower BMI and still have ample "curves".
If a lady of 1m50 and a lady of 1m85 stand together in front of a projection screen at adjusted distance to be of the same height, and their body shape is really identical...the tall lady will have a vastly higher BMI anyway. To match the short woman's BMI she's need to get deep into starvation. BMI is an utterly useless standard. It takes height into account, but not really. Thus works only to compare same height people, thus is useless. Evil actually. It tells tall people that they're fat, and short people to eat more.

BMI comes up with a number using the square of height. Where in reality weight goes up with the cube of height. Exception to the rule is a sheet of paper with given thickness.

Thick legs are fine of they produce speed at an efficient oxygen rate. Legs are vital in propulsion. 20% more leg weighs only 8% or so on the total. If the weight is not wasted, and offers more efficient propulsion than from torso and arms, it can work out well.
A thick layer of fat on the legs...that never made anyone a faster endurance athlete I think.
 
Kokoso said:
She has very similar body type as Kalla, except Kalla probably has more muscles and Tiril more fat. Kalla is no "tiny" girl. Maybe these days biathlon and xc are no longer endurance sports and my opinion is thus biased.
Well, whether they are not endurance sports anymore is a completely different debate; one where you may well find me agreeing with you. I find the proliferation of sprints in XC and the marginalization of individual start formats, especially in biathlon with the Individual, the most historic and traditional format, to be a major concern, and you can see its effects. I always use women's XC as the example because it has the shallowest field, therefore different characteristics are quite glaringly clear at the top end: my main problem is that as the number of races of real distance continues to reduce, a traditional pure skier like Kristin Størmer Steira becomes marginalized; the number of races she can't compete in greatly outnumbers the number of races somebody like Kikkan Randall can't compete in - a pure powerhouse tank of a sprinter, who has done a bit of work to improve endurance and can now compete in the short-to-medium length races.

I'm still not seeing a powerhouse or even anything remotely close to one in Tiril Eckhoff, but it is worth noting that the races where she has been close to or exceeded the times of the usual best skiers have been the shortest ones (two sprints of 7,5km and the relay of 6km); the race where she has been furthest away (by a long way) was the longest race (the 15km Individual). And if your stance is that Eckhoff is a powerhouse, surely that is in line with expectations, that she is most competitive in the shorter skiing race, and least competitive when endurance becomes more of a factor, and therefore this isn't all that suspicious when she's at her quickest in the shortest of all events (the relay leg)?

I'm really not understanding why you've been going after Tiril as that suspicious. You point out that she wasn't that good as a junior, and this is a fair criticism, but as a quick comparison between athletes a year apart in age:

Gabriela Soukalová, Torsby 2010:
Individual 13
Sprint 14
Pursuit 10

Tiril Kampenhaug Eckhoff, Nové Město 2011:
Individual 8
Sprint 16
Pursuit 5

It is true, however, that Soukalová did better at Canmore 2009 as a first year junior than Eckhoff did at Torsby.

You defended Soukalová's 2012-13 coming out party (93rd to 6th in the World Cup) as her having been a strong junior whose 2011-12 season had been ruined by mononucleosis. Now, the injury-ridden season can happen to anyone. But at the tail end of the year that she emerged, Tiril Eckhoff started building good results. She had a very strong final block from Oslo to Khanty-Mansiysk then. And if Soukalová's results were those of a strong junior, how can Tiril's results be dismissed as her not being a good junior - it's true that neither were teenage phenoms like Johannes Bø, Laura Dahlmeier (who is 3 years younger than Tiril and podiumed that 2011 Junior Worlds pursuit) or Miriam Gössner (who managed to finish 2nd in a 2009 Junior Worlds sprint race as an 18 year old, despite missing 5 targets), but they weren't exactly weak.

If we then say Soukalová's 2012-13 should match up to Eckhoff's 2013-14 (since they're a year apart in age), then Soukalová's step up - even when the illness-ridden previous season is not accounted for - is more significant than Tiril's. Soukalová climbed to 6th in the World Cup, with six podiums and four wins (also super-peaking, as these were all at two events, three at Pokljuka and three at Khanty); Tiril climbed to 7th in the World Cup, with two podiums and no wins. Soukalová went from the girl who could start a pursuit with bib #1, hit all 20 targets and still lose on the skis to somebody who skied 5 penalties, to being 6th fastest skier overall all season in 2012-13; Eckhoff was 29th fastest that season, which improved to 10th last year. Soukalová started 2013-14 with a bang in Östersund just as Tiril has done this year.

If you write out Soukalová's 2011-12 as an outlier that masks her true potential, her career path and Eckhoff's aren't all that dissimilar.
Kokoso said:
Do you know if Solemdal had any problems or something?
Now, or before her 2011-12 transformation?

Now, yes. She cut her season short last year with mono, and then got injured during the summer's training and missed part of a training block. She's still been a lot worse than I'd expect this season, and her wild fluctuations of form aren't exactly filling me with confidence, but we'll see how she goes. Could be another Svetlana Sleptsova or Tina Bachmann in the making, or she could get back to form before long.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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Libertine Seguros said:
Well, whether they are not endurance sports anymore is a completely different debate; one where you may well find me agreeing with you. I find the proliferation of sprints in XC and the marginalization of individual start formats, especially in biathlon with the Individual, the most historic and traditional format, to be a major concern, and you can see its effects. I always use women's XC as the example because it has the shallowest field, therefore different characteristics are quite glaringly clear at the top end: my main problem is that as the number of races of real distance continues to reduce, a traditional pure skier like Kristin Størmer Steira becomes marginalized; the number of races she can't compete in greatly outnumbers the number of races somebody like Kikkan Randall can't compete in - a pure powerhouse tank of a sprinter, who has done a bit of work to improve endurance and can now compete in the short-to-medium length races.

I'm still not seeing a powerhouse or even anything remotely close to one in Tiril Eckhoff, but it is worth noting that the races where she has been close to or exceeded the times of the usual best skiers have been the shortest ones (two sprints of 7,5km and the relay of 6km); the race where she has been furthest away (by a long way) was the longest race (the 15km Individual). And if your stance is that Eckhoff is a powerhouse, surely that is in line with expectations, that she is most competitive in the shorter skiing race, and least competitive when endurance becomes more of a factor, and therefore this isn't all that suspicious when she's at her quickest in the shortest of all events (the relay leg)?

I'm really not understanding why you've been going after Tiril as that suspicious. You point out that she wasn't that good as a junior, and this is a fair criticism, but as a quick comparison between athletes a year apart in age:

Gabriela Soukalová, Torsby 2010:
Individual 13
Sprint 14
Pursuit 10

Tiril Kampenhaug Eckhoff, Nové Město 2011:
Individual 8
Sprint 16
Pursuit 5

It is true, however, that Soukalová did better at Canmore 2009 as a first year junior than Eckhoff did at Torsby.

You defended Soukalová's 2012-13 coming out party (93rd to 6th in the World Cup) as her having been a strong junior whose 2011-12 season had been ruined by mononucleosis. Now, the injury-ridden season can happen to anyone. But at the tail end of the year that she emerged, Tiril Eckhoff started building good results. She had a very strong final block from Oslo to Khanty-Mansiysk then. And if Soukalová's results were those of a strong junior, how can Tiril's results be dismissed as her not being a good junior - it's true that neither were teenage phenoms like Johannes Bø, Laura Dahlmeier (who is 3 years younger than Tiril and podiumed that 2011 Junior Worlds pursuit) or Miriam Gössner (who managed to finish 2nd in a 2009 Junior Worlds sprint race as an 18 year old, despite missing 5 targets), but they weren't exactly weak.

If we then say Soukalová's 2012-13 should match up to Eckhoff's 2013-14 (since they're a year apart in age), then Soukalová's step up - even when the illness-ridden previous season is not accounted for - is more significant than Tiril's. Soukalová climbed to 6th in the World Cup, with six podiums and four wins (also super-peaking, as these were all at two events, three at Pokljuka and three at Khanty); Tiril climbed to 7th in the World Cup, with two podiums and no wins. Soukalová went from the girl who could start a pursuit with bib #1, hit all 20 targets and still lose on the skis to somebody who skied 5 penalties, to being 6th fastest skier overall all season in 2012-13; Eckhoff was 29th fastest that season, which improved to 10th last year. Soukalová started 2013-14 with a bang in Östersund just as Tiril has done this year.

If you write out Soukalová's 2011-12 as an outlier that masks her true potential, her career path and Eckhoff's aren't all that dissimilar.

Now, or before her 2011-12 transformation?

Now, yes. She cut her season short last year with mono, and then got injured during the summer's training and missed part of a training block. She's still been a lot worse than I'd expect this season, and her wild fluctuations of form aren't exactly filling me with confidence, but we'll see how she goes. Could be another Svetlana Sleptsova or Tina Bachmann in the making, or she could get back to form before long.
I couldn't imagine succesful endurance athlete as thick as Eckhoff, you know. She's simply quite fat and robust. Look at the long distance runners - no one has thick leg. Now what you say sounds logical. I would have to look at it closer to see if I'm actually right in the opinion that short thicker skiers aren't usually among the bestm but I don't have time for it now.
I slowly begin to dislike Soukalova because of her PR. I feel she considers herself star now. She haven't said that though, I read between the lines and maybe wrongly.
Regarding Solemdal I thougt now.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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Libertine Seguros said:
I really don't see any major transformation in Eckhoff. You point out Vitkova is a very good skier this year, but she's improved her skiing much more than Eckhoff has. Tiril was 10th fastest skier last year, and 3rd fastest at Östersund. Vitková was 32nd fastest skier last year, and 5th fastest at Östersund. Vitková's also 18 months older than Eckhoff. Surely that's more of a noteworthy transformation than Tiril's.
I looked closer at it and no way Vitkova was 32nd second fastest skier last year. Look like you are talking BS and I'm blindly believing you.
 
Gløersen was not scheduled to take part, but some issues in the team got him on the 15km Davos roster. And he won it, especially in the last kilometers he as fast. Not sure I'm comfortable with that. The others skied like they really wanted it.

Johaug was strangely off the pace though, was it getting too ridiculous even to Norwegian standards?
 
Kokoso said:
I looked closer at it and no way Vitkova was 32nd second fastest skier last year. Look like you are talking BS and I'm blindly believing you.
Depends on the methodology I guess. Realbiathlon has her as 30th and 28th best skier. No idea as to why the difference.
Not very far from 32nd for it to qualify as a BS...
She indeed made a big leap forward in the ski speed. But as you mentioned, there are reasons for this and for now, I only wish she gets used to her new speed ASAP and fixes her unusually poor shooting!
 
Apr 22, 2012
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TomasC said:
Depends on the methodology I guess. Realbiathlon has her as 30th and 28th best skier. No idea as to why the difference.
Not very far from 32nd for it to qualify as a BS...
She indeed made a big leap forward in the ski speed. But as you mentioned, there are reasons for this and for now, I only wish she gets used to her new speed ASAP and fixes her unusually poor shooting!
I have to say I don't quite understand how the ski speed is counted. I've looked at official stats and it looked almost impossible to me that she'd be 32nd fastest skier, because she had only two results (I think in Oestersund) where she had 32nd and 35th time and rest of the results were lot better, some even in the top ten. I have to say I don't understand it. Still it looks to me very strange for her to be 32nd fastest skier.
 
Cloxxki said:
Gløersen was not scheduled to take part, but some issues in the team got him on the 15km Davos roster. And he won it, especially in the last kilometers he as fast. Not sure I'm comfortable with that. The others skied like they really wanted it.

Johaug was strangely off the pace though, was it getting too ridiculous even to Norwegian standards?
Stone grinding is a hell of a drug
 
Apr 22, 2012
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TomasC said:
Depends on the methodology I guess. Realbiathlon has her as 30th and 28th best skier. No idea as to why the difference.
Not very far from 32nd for it to qualify as a BS...
She indeed made a big leap forward in the ski speed. But as you mentioned, there are reasons for this and for now, I only wish she gets used to her new speed ASAP and fixes her unusually poor shooting!
Rest of Vítková times are:
13., 18., 17., 20., 23., 25., 24., 24., 23., 29., 26., 26., 16., 22., 20., 9., 9., 17., 22., 15., 16., 19., 17.
How can she possibly be 32nd, 30th or 28th skier? I don't understand that :confused:
 
Bavarianrider said:
Stone grinding is a hell of a drug

They must have better stones in Norway. Finer, coastal fjord stones.

yes, skis make a difference, but, save for waxing fiasco days where one is double poling on classic skis up a hill because there is no grip, or when there is an inch of snow stuck under the kick zone, skis and wax are marginal - especially with national team techs.

I've had slower athletes win races because everyone else focused on waxing instead of what was happening in their minds. Not sure they ever one because of wax - lost, yes.

At the elite level, major differences in speed are more likely clinic related than not.
 
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