Doping in XC skiing

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Sep 25, 2009
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Oude Geuze said:
python said:
i will root for the kowa chick every time over any norge chick (well, perhaps, except the heidi weng chick :) ), but to say she was getting a pass here is ignorant and lazy.

yes, kowa's skating has practically not improved in over a decade. she's hardly alone among the elite athletes...
it'd be interesting if she with her coaches ever estimated how much efficiency she is loosing due to her poor technique. btw, jusyna has a phd in applied physiology (physical education) and i would assume is quite capable to approach the improvement analytically. while she is bearable to watch at a skating start, she literally breaks down - like last weekend in lillehammer during an individual 5K - at the finish.

what can be more suspicious than with such a sub-par technique she won a gold in the turin 30 k freestyle :Question: :idea:

there is nothing to add about the freakish marit. i was relieved she could have a baby :)
Why do you write "norge" in singular, non specific with a lower case "n" in such a passive agressive way in all your posts? You would never write "i will root for the kowa chick every time over any england chick" Thats how hateful and bitter people talk, and I know most of you are deep in the cynical echo-chamber of resentment down here but damn, who beat you so bad wearing red suite? Just a modicum of civility and respect for nations and their athletes would be nice.
b/c i dont need your vesting to write whatever i feel like. including the use of a very common 'norge' term. if you feel you entered a hateful echo chamber, you needed to check the rules at the door: attacking the entire forum and posting a clearly false and ignorant remark about the posters ignoring the suspicious kowalczyk results was going to have a response. and you got it from several. i am a long time fan of the norge xc skiing. but when they get obnoxious or arrogant, sort of like you, pushing the doping gray line - and finally getting caught - i am not going to applaud. that's how it rolls when the ignorance is too obvious...

Discgear said:
Why not a modicum of civility and respect for your fellow posters? You're truly entering this forum like a Rhino with ADHD. Arrogance seems indeed to be a widespread affliction in Norway.
it's the xc ski community that is particularly fed up with it. not always the case...

i posted this in another thread, but b/c it seems to fit the context, for instance, the norge magnus carlsen, who just successfully defended his world chess title, was NOT coming across that way. i did follow ALL games and all post game comments very closely. was even in the arena personally twice...he was if not a gentleman, he was respectful.
 
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Oude Geuze said:
python said:
i will root for the kowa chick every time over any norge chick (well, perhaps, except the heidi weng chick :) ), but to say she was getting a pass here is ignorant and lazy.

yes, kowa's skating has practically not improved in over a decade. she's hardly alone among the elite athletes...
it'd be interesting if she with her coaches ever estimated how much efficiency she is loosing due to her poor technique. btw, jusyna has a phd in applied physiology (physical education) and i would assume is quite capable to approach the improvement analytically. while she is bearable to watch at a skating start, she literally breaks down - like last weekend in lillehammer during an individual 5K - at the finish.

what can be more suspicious than with such a sub-par technique she won a gold in the turin 30 k freestyle :Question: :idea:

there is nothing to add about the freakish marit. i was relieved she could have a baby :)
Why do you write "norge" in singular, non specific with a lower case "n" in such a passive agressive way in all your posts? You would never write "i will root for the kowa chick every time over any england chick" Thats how hateful and bitter people talk, and I know most of you are deep in the cynical echo-chamber of resentment down here but damn, who beat you so bad wearing red suite? Just a modicum of civility and respect for nations and their athletes would be nice.

I've posted in this thread really since the first few days of it back in 2010. I believe that, by and large, the narrative has changed, but I don't think it's simply a 'cynical echo-chamber of resentment,' nor has it ever been, nor do I think there is resentment for Norway as a country. I don't want to speak for everyone else here that has commented, but I think the general feeling is that the Norwegian National Team has, for a long time, acted if not in blatant doping, in suspicious activity. I mean, this sort of speculation and the hundreds, thousands of comments that have been made, refuted, debated, hated, appreciated, whatever, have happened in pretty much every clinic thread, about a whole host of riders from many different countries, backgrounds, with different race results, tendencies, trajectories, etc. One of the biggest reasons, I think, the Norwegians are getting flack, is because for a long time the Norwegians have held themselves to be bastions of clean racing and have pointed fingers, called other skiers/nations out, have hit out at the Finns, for example after the 2001 scandal, and feel that they are the ones that need to call the shots. So now when two of their biggest names (two best skiers of last season, what's more) get busted for doping, they are quick to defend those skiers and call those that question their practices jealous, or offensive, or slanderous, in the wrong, haters, stupid, etc. Some Norwegian athletes, along with the Norwegian media, have called out Kowalczyk for the past 6-7 years on her outspoken criticism of widespread use of asthma. Not only did they accuse Kowalczyk of slander, but they also tried to assure everyone that these asthma meds are 'not performance enhancing,' and that skiers like Bjoergen use them so they can stay healthy and are able to race in normal conditions. Now that those claims have been proven wrong, and that the asthma meds the Norwegians use (en masse) are in fact performance enhancing, AND that non-asthmatics use them as well, the same Norwegian media and the National Team skiers, coaches, officials, doctors, see nothing wrong with it and said they will keep doing it?!? That's the sort of arrogance and double standard that people in the 'echo-chamber' as you call it, hate and comment on. The nice thing is that more people are speaking out and it's finally out in the open. I don't doubt for a second other practices have been used, but I'll let this comment stand without further speculation.

There have been several Norwegian posters in this board (won't mention their names, as I don't think that's fair, and I think they know who they are and so do most of us that have been here for the past....6 years) that have for a while kept denying, and kept asking for facts, and links, and evidence while at same time had no problem calling out other skiers and nations. Pretty similar narrative that you see in places like NRK, for example. I haven't seen much from those posters in a while. Again, not calling them out, but it's interesting how things have turned around since Sundby's positive doping test(s) were finally made public this summer.
 
Apr 3, 2016
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Discgear said:
Oude Geuze said:
Thats how hateful and bitter people talk, and I know most of you are deep in the cynical echo-chamber of resentment down here but damn, who beat you so bad wearing red suite? Just a modicum of civility and respect for nations and their athletes would be nice.
Why not a modicum of civility and respect for your fellow posters? You're truly entering this forum like a Rhino with ADHD. Arrogance seems indeed to be a widespread affliction in Norway.
Yeah, I agree, I was coming out too strong there. I had just read so many pages of what I percived to be bitter vitreol and lost context. Sorry.

On the use of "norge", it's not a term, its the name of a nation. When you write it in norwegian, with wrong grammars and without capital letter, as a way to signify doping or some "evil entity", yeah, its a bit disrespectful. Just as you have "the norwegians", "Norway" and "norwegian" all signifying different things, we have that in our language too. By all means, use it like that, I just dont find it to be in good taste. I never see you do this with any other nations, so thats why I assumed it signified something (bad) in this context. I would'nt ever write "That polski chic" "Here comes the polski team again" etc /rant
 
Apr 3, 2016
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Libertine Seguros said:
The length taken to ascend the climb of course also is only one measure of the climb. Johaug's physical advantage is at its greatest on the steeper ascents, staying with her on, say, Mördarbacken is to me more of a red flag than on the drag into the stadium in Sochi, which, though long, was not especially steep until near the end, which is why in the skiathlon Johaug rather lost out and it was instead Kalla, less built for climbing but with the best V-1 of the quintet (Bjørgen, Johaug, Weng, Saarinen and Kalla) that was stringing them out.

As for Northug competing in hilly 50ks, sometimes that's because he's just that good, and sometimes it's because there have been some very frustrating races to watch tactically, with people either afraid to chance their arm à la Olsson until late on, or chase down any move rather than make the likes of Petter contribute to the pacing. Northug is great at skiing his own race and letting the event come to him, and some days he is absolutely on it and nothing will drop him anyway, and other days the opposition just hands the race to him on a silver platter.
But even Mördarbacken is not long. This is my point. I agree that gradient matters as you explain it, but you don't see Contador winning AGR any time soon even though he's one of the greatest climbers of all time.

Northug moves up on the flats, slips down in the field and the climb and manages to stay with the best on the ultimate and penultimate climbs to be there in the finish. He cant do that on a long climb, thats why he could never win TdS.
 
But half the time Northug doesn't have any business being up there in the first place, and it's poor racing tactics from others that lets him operate that tactic successfully. The commentators go on about what a tactical master Northug is, but it's only a valid tactic because he has such a good finishing burst. If somebody like Legkov or Olsson was to ape Northug's tactic it wouldn't just be unsuccessful, it would be monumentally boneheaded. Not to mention that Northug is like skiing's equivalent of seeing what happens if you marry Peter Sagan's attitude and behaviour to Simon Gerrans' racing acumen, so a lot of people resent him and don't want him to succeed long before doping is introduced to the conversation.

Anyway, I thought Petter had won the Tour de Ski, or did Sundby get that result back?
 
Apr 3, 2016
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BullsFan22 said:
Oude Geuze said:
python said:
i will root for the kowa chick every time over any norge chick (well, perhaps, except the heidi weng chick :) ), but to say she was getting a pass here is ignorant and lazy.

yes, kowa's skating has practically not improved in over a decade. she's hardly alone among the elite athletes...
it'd be interesting if she with her coaches ever estimated how much efficiency she is loosing due to her poor technique. btw, jusyna has a phd in applied physiology (physical education) and i would assume is quite capable to approach the improvement analytically. while she is bearable to watch at a skating start, she literally breaks down - like last weekend in lillehammer during an individual 5K - at the finish.

what can be more suspicious than with such a sub-par technique she won a gold in the turin 30 k freestyle :Question: :idea:

there is nothing to add about the freakish marit. i was relieved she could have a baby :)
Why do you write "norge" in singular, non specific with a lower case "n" in such a passive agressive way in all your posts? You would never write "i will root for the kowa chick every time over any england chick" Thats how hateful and bitter people talk, and I know most of you are deep in the cynical echo-chamber of resentment down here but damn, who beat you so bad wearing red suite? Just a modicum of civility and respect for nations and their athletes would be nice.

I've posted in this thread really since the first few days of it back in 2010. I believe that, by and large, the narrative has changed, but I don't think it's simply a 'cynical echo-chamber of resentment,' nor has it ever been, nor do I think there is resentment for Norway as a country. I don't want to speak for everyone else here that has commented, but I think the general feeling is that the Norwegian National Team has, for a long time, acted if not in blatant doping, in suspicious activity. I mean, this sort of speculation and the hundreds, thousands of comments that have been made, refuted, debated, hated, appreciated, whatever, have happened in pretty much every clinic thread, about a whole host of riders from many different countries, backgrounds, with different race results, tendencies, trajectories, etc. One of the biggest reasons, I think, the Norwegians are getting flack, is because for a long time the Norwegians have held themselves to be bastions of clean racing and have pointed fingers, called other skiers/nations out, have hit out at the Finns, for example after the 2001 scandal, and feel that they are the ones that need to call the shots. So now when two of their biggest names (two best skiers of last season, what's more) get busted for doping, they are quick to defend those skiers and call those that question their practices jealous, or offensive, or slanderous, in the wrong, haters, stupid, etc. Some Norwegian athletes, along with the Norwegian media, have called out Kowalczyk for the past 6-7 years on her outspoken criticism of widespread use of asthma. Not only did they accuse Kowalczyk of slander, but they also tried to assure everyone that these asthma meds are 'not performance enhancing,' and that skiers like Bjoergen use them so they can stay healthy and are able to race in normal conditions. Now that those claims have been proven wrong, and that the asthma meds the Norwegians use (en masse) are in fact performance enhancing, AND that non-asthmatics use them as well, the same Norwegian media and the National Team skiers, coaches, officials, doctors, see nothing wrong with it and said they will keep doing it?!? That's the sort of arrogance and double standard that people in the 'echo-chamber' as you call it, hate and comment on. The nice thing is that more people are speaking out and it's finally out in the open. I don't doubt for a second other practices have been used, but I'll let this comment stand without further speculation.

There have been several Norwegian posters in this board (won't mention their names, as I don't think that's fair, and I think they know who they are and so do most of us that have been here for the past....6 years) that have for a while kept denying, and kept asking for facts, and links, and evidence while at same time had no problem calling out other skiers and nations. Pretty similar narrative that you see in places like NRK, for example. I haven't seen much from those posters in a while. Again, not calling them out, but it's interesting how things have turned around since Sundby's positive doping test(s) were finally made public this summer.
I agree with almost everything you said. We thought we were special, clean and virtuous. Definitly an echo-chamber. It's changed now.
I still don't think doping is what makes norwegians the best xc nation in the world. We are the only ones who give a *** about the sport on a national basis:p There are more xc athletes in Norway than the rest of the world combined. And extreme differences in budget. If norwegians weren't the best, by far, there would be something seriously wrong with us genetically and physically.
 
Succesful detraction from the topic at hand, matching the world's skinniest XC skier on a long climb, be it really steep or less so, while carrying visible amount of (for such a climb) superfluous muscle mass.
I am deeply disappointed by what's come out of the Norwegian came in terms of sportmedical ethics. But in fact, I am learning the language because I intend to spend parts of the year there. I like it there.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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Oude Geuze said:
I still don't think doping is what makes norwegians the best xc nation in the world. We are the only ones who give a **** about the sport on a national basis:p There are more xc athletes in Norway than the rest of the world combined. And extreme differences in budget. If norwegians weren't the best, by far, there would be something seriously wrong with us genetically and physically.
...and than you look at biathlon or nordic combined and you know this is BS.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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Oude Geuze didn't react on me. Maybe it's just and accident and he missed my reaction or find nothing to react on, or maybe he didn't react because he had nothing to say because I was spot on (at least according to him).

Letting yourself drag into Oude Geuze's game is nonsense from the start. All he's doing is ignoring what doesn't suit him and going on with his agenda. Few examples - saying nobody question Kowalyczyk Kowalczyk is bigger and heavier than Bjoergen - those are fine examples of this and the list goes on. I think it's impossible to state this if you are interested in xc skiing at least a little bit; or if you want to find the truth. I mean - everybody who follows xc skiing knows Marit is bodybuilder-like and everybody knows that Kowalczyk is no longer on the top game and everybody knows that there were lot of people questioning her.
 
Also Kowalczyk has been brave to be vocal on the prevalence of asthma in Norwegian skiing. And she has now been recently FULLY vindicated after years of outrage over her words. Yes, she's probably heavier than ever now. Makes Bjoergen look skinny in current form. If anything, the latter came back leaner from the baby break.
But the whole point was that the past few years, Bjoergen could follow Johaug where no-one else could. Johaug's climbing form, acknowledged by eveyone, is her high power to weight ratio. How does someone match that while bringing along lots of bulk?
Just yesterday I spoke to a nutricional additives guru and life long elite road cyclist. He noted that when he's buffed up, his endurance suffers. Climbing doesn't work anymore, only time trialing.
 
Apr 3, 2016
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Kokoso said:
Oude Geuze said:
I still don't think doping is what makes norwegians the best xc nation in the world. We are the only ones who give a **** about the sport on a national basis:p There are more xc athletes in Norway than the rest of the world combined. And extreme differences in budget. If norwegians weren't the best, by far, there would be something seriously wrong with us genetically and physically.
...and than you look at biathlon or nordic combined and you know this is BS.
Of course, if you disregard they are two different sports and biathlon is a lot less popular in Norway than xc, while the situation is reversed in the rest of europe, that wouldn't be a false analogy..
 
Apr 3, 2016
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Cloxxki said:
Also Kowalczyk has been brave to be vocal on the prevalence of asthma in Norwegian skiing. And she has now been recently FULLY vindicated after years of outrage over her words. Yes, she's probably heavier than ever now. Makes Bjoergen look skinny in current form. If anything, the latter came back leaner from the baby break.
But the whole point was that the past few years, Bjoergen could follow Johaug where no-one else could. Johaug's climbing form, acknowledged by eveyone, is her high power to weight ratio. How does someone match that while bringing along lots of bulk?
Just yesterday I spoke to a nutricional additives guru and life long elite road cyclist. He noted that when he's buffed up, his endurance suffers. Climbing doesn't work anymore, only time trialing.
I specifically explained the physiology behind this. The way forward in a discussion is not merely reiterating the original point, but to refute the counter argument.
 
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Oude Geuze said:
Cloxxki said:
Also Kowalczyk has been brave to be vocal on the prevalence of asthma in Norwegian skiing. And she has now been recently FULLY vindicated after years of outrage over her words. Yes, she's probably heavier than ever now. Makes Bjoergen look skinny in current form. If anything, the latter came back leaner from the baby break.
But the whole point was that the past few years, Bjoergen could follow Johaug where no-one else could. Johaug's climbing form, acknowledged by eveyone, is her high power to weight ratio. How does someone match that while bringing along lots of bulk?
Just yesterday I spoke to a nutricional additives guru and life long elite road cyclist. He noted that when he's buffed up, his endurance suffers. Climbing doesn't work anymore, only time trialing.
I specifically explained the physiology behind this. The way forward in a discussion is not merely reiterating the original point, but to refute the counter argument.
Your explanation was about as detailed as "10-15kg doesn't matter up to 3 minutes".
If anyone wants to give it a better try, be my guest.
 
The grey areas are expanding in XC-Norway. Today Johaugs new staff was presented. An elite group that will help her to be at her best in the next Olympics. http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/therese-johaug/skieksperter-tror-johaug-faar-et-kanonteam-rundt-rundt-seg/a/23865967/

1. Former technique trainer of the Norwegian XC-team Pål-Gunnar Mikkelsplass who as late as this September was with the national team in Kvitfjell.
2. Snorre Haugland, her ski waxer since many years.
3. Ola Sand, a high-profile medic within Norwegian sports.
4. Britt Tajet Foxell, psychologist in Olympiatoppen.

You do wonder who pays for this. This is outrageous according to Finnish commentators and even the always moderate Swedish journalist Kristoffer Bergström in Aftonbladet says NSF are truly balancing at the edge of the abyss.
http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/langrenn/finsk-aviskommentator-om-johaugs-team-kunne-aldri-skjedd-i-finland/a/23866566/

As mentioned before, it would be very interesting to know who was on FIS doping panel when they sentenced Kowalczyk to a two year ban but got overrid by CAS, since the violation itself should not be punished with more than one year. And who was on the very same panel when they did free Johnsrud Sundby this summer, but got overrid by CAS.

Finally, yesterday it was a fundamentally sickening article in VG where the well known Norwegian sports lawyer Gunnar-Martin Kjenner questioned WADA and CAS. He said that Johaug should appeal to a Norwegian civil court and be a new Bosman-case. He apparently wants – in the name of saving the princess – throw all the anti-doping work over board.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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Discgear said:
The grey areas are expanding in XC-Norway. Today Johaugs new staff was presented. An elite group that will help her to be at her best in the next Olympics. http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/therese-johaug/skieksperter-tror-johaug-faar-et-kanonteam-rundt-rundt-seg/a/23865967/

1. Former technique trainer of the Norwegian XC-team Pål-Gunnar Mikkelsplass who as late as this September was with the national team in Kvitfjell.
2. Snorre Haugland, her ski waxer since many years.
3. Ola Sand, a high-profile medic within Norwegian sports.
4. Britt Tajet Foxell, psychologist in Olympiatoppen.

You do wonder who pays for this. This is outrageous according to Finnish commentators and even the always moderate Swedish journalist Kristoffer Bergström in Aftonbladet says NSF are truly balancing at the edge of the abyss.
http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/langrenn/finsk-aviskommentator-om-johaugs-team-kunne-aldri-skjedd-i-finland/a/23866566/

As mentioned before, it would be very interesting to know who was on FIS doping panel when they sentenced Kowalczyk to a two year ban but got overrid by CAS, since the violation itself should not be punished with more than one year. And who was on the very same panel when they did free Johnsrud Sundby this summer, but got overrid by CAS.

Finally, yesterday it was a fundamentally sickening article in VG where the well known Norwegian sports lawyer Gunnar-Martin Kjenner questioned WADA and CAS. He said that Johaug should appeal to a Norwegian civil court and be a new Bosman-case. He apparently wants – in the name of saving the princess – throw all the anti-doping work over board.
c'mon, discgear, let me quote the newest norge apologists here directly. he said (in a response to bullsfan ) that the norge echo chamber is no more...'It's changed now', he said
check for yourself, discgear.
viewtopic.php?p=2046948#p2046948

and here you're posting that the norge echo chamber is alive, well and thriving.


you didn't even mention that the norge echo-chamber has nominated the convicted wada doping rules violator to the norge athlete 2016. nor did you mention the doping rules violater image still on the national team bus to advertise it to the whole world.

yeah, it all changed in the norge echo-chamber :rolleyes:

except in happened in the small minds of still loyal fanboys willing to pedal the myth and make themselves a joke.

as arrogant as ever...
 
Re: Re:

Oude Geuze said:
Kokoso said:
Oude Geuze said:
I still don't think doping is what makes norwegians the best xc nation in the world. We are the only ones who give a **** about the sport on a national basis:p There are more xc athletes in Norway than the rest of the world combined. And extreme differences in budget. If norwegians weren't the best, by far, there would be something seriously wrong with us genetically and physically.
...and than you look at biathlon or nordic combined and you know this is BS.
Of course, if you disregard they are two different sports and biathlon is a lot less popular in Norway than xc, while the situation is reversed in the rest of europe, that wouldn't be a false analogy..
But the point is more that XC wasn't always a Norway first and foremost thing. In fairly recent memory there were far more nations competing in the upper echelons of competition, but now there's a veritable procession of Norwegians. It's true that biathlon is more popular in several countries (most notably Germany of course) but that doesn't explain why XC hæmorrhages talent to it. Put simply, because there are more variables in biathlon, more people feel they can compete and get a good result, so even in countries other than those like Germany with a big biathlon tradition, a prospective XC skier who doesn't fancy scrapping around for minor placements can pick up a rifle and if they take to it, have more chance of picking up top 10s, top 5s, podiums or wins than they would in XC. And then, for fans, the fact that biathlon has that additional variable that means there's the potential for the race situation to dramatically change every few minutes means that there's fewer races where the pattern is established in the first 5 minutes and then stays that way all the way to the end, as happened far too often with either tepidly-raced mass start men's events where everybody stays as a pack until a sprint finish, or women's distance events where Johaug skis off with a couple of km gone and nobody sees her again.

It's become chicken-and-egg. The loss of talents to biathlon has increased the Norway-heavy nature of XC results sheets and seen several countries divert budgets away from XC and towards biathlon, but the subsequent inability of those teams to compete financially with the Norwegian team only perpetuates the situation of Norwegian dominance. Of course it happens, often with start number races or when top teams are resting their stars ahead of a major championships or after the Tour de Ski or what have you, but the number of unexpected outsider winners and podiums is much higher in biathlon than in XC as well, giving further incentives for athletes who are not at the very top to move across. When the people being lost from XC aren't just prospects and also-rans but pretty established World Cup names, there's a clear problem. For example, Denise Herrmann has worn the sprint World Cup leaders' bib and been top 10 in the overall World Cup, made podiums of World Cup events and is in peak years - and yet to her it's more appealing to compete in biathlon on the IBU Cup (not even at World Cup level!) than to compete in XC and fight over minor placements. This isn't a World Cup also-ran trying their luck as a biathlete; this isn't a competitor from a small biathlon nation where they've got a fairly straightforward ticket to the World Cup. This is legitimately the best XC skier a major Nordic sports country has, electing to give up the sport to compete in second division biathlon. Worse, Victoria Carl, perhaps the only really top notch prospect the Germans have in XC, has already made noises about converting to biathlon.

That's a serious problem that XC needs to figure out how to address in order to protect the sport's appeal and attract competitors and investment beyond the borders of Norway and to a lesser extent Finland. It's a glorious and historic sport and it shouldn't have been allowed to get into the dire straits it finds itself in. It's all well and good to say "XC is more popular in Norway and biathlon is more popular in the rest of Europe", but the important question is, why is that?
 
Jul 19, 2009
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It has been a very "interesting" development in Norway concerning attitudes towards our athletes positive doping tests and our belief in their anti-doping attitudes in general.

The development follows the same trail as attitudes towards the recognition of financial irregularities, corruption, fraud and bribery etc as a phenomenon that even occurs and do exist in Norwegian society. The last 10-15 years are full with scandals in both public and private sector concerning all sorts of economic misdoings both abroad and domestic. Some 20 years ago, the mainstream opinion was that corruption and other economic irregularities was a phenomenon only found elsewhere and not in our pristine Norwegian society.

In this context it is a bit charming that many still would point to transparency international indexes indicating that we are far from the worst, as if the goal is to beat the 2nd. best and avoid the lower ranks on the index rather than to improve genuinely.

One must wonder why so many Norwegians still would not see that sports organizations, leaders as well as athletes, are products of the same society that produces criminals and cheaters of all types all over the spectrum, including dopers in sports.

Norwegians are currently entrenched into basically two camps and there is no indication that the Sundby or the Johaug case will change the opinion that Norwegians do not cheat and that the two cases are just a result of accidents, unclear rules, trusting doctors etc. etc. and consequently the athletes have no guilt. There have even been articles in Norwegian media mentioning that we now have to revise our understanding of foreign athletes obscure explanations/excuses behind their positive doping tests saying that there might be some truth to their explanations after all.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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good post, felice.

i wonder why the media is so disinterested in exploring the real biggy in the sundby case... no, not that he was abusing the asthma med dosage, not that he used an instrument used only in the hospitals, but the absolute and total attempt to conceal his case from the public ? why the norwegians are not suspicious that when one tries to hide a simple med for which he is entitled, he may have more to hide ? why, the coach's and the officials 'we have nothing to hide' is not taken apart in the light of the sundby case ?

this is what mystifies me about the norwegian attitude ?
 
Well, Python, even after Sundby got exposed, still Norway commit to their athma program. They are committed to it. Curious that FIS played game. Not so sure they still do.

Now that Johaug has assembled her dream team, does this mean she won't really appeal the 14 months? Or, that no-one will make the effort to get her on the sidelines for he full 2 or 4 years?
 
Jul 19, 2009
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python said:
good post, felice.

i wonder why the media is so disinterested in exploring the real biggy in the sundby case... no, not that he was abusing the asthma med dosage, not that he used an instrument used only in the hospitals, but the absolute and total attempt to conceal his case from the public ? why the norwegians are not suspicious that when one tries to hide a simple med for which he is entitled, he may have more to hide ? why, the coach's and the officials 'we have nothing to hide' is not taken apart in the light of the sundby case ?

this is what mystifies me about the norwegian attitude ?
Journalists asking tough questions are boycotted and discredited publicly from both leaders and athletes. A journalist said in an interview with team manager Løfshus that Sundby had actually been a doper as a result of getting a suspension for violating the rules to which Løfshus denied this pointing to FIS's decision and not mentioning that this decision was later appealed by CAS who did give Sundby a doping suspension. You have to give it to NSF that they have immense influence in Norwegian society, just look at the leaks about emails denying people connected to NIF to make any statements, calls and emails sent to leading journalists trying to influence them and even harassing them when they have made what seem critical comments to NFS in the media.

Also, some back ground information is interesting. NSF probably still employs a lobbyist firm known for its resources and connections all over, this is not public information and my speculation only, but it is very likely. An effort in other media branches in Norway is being made to get the general sports society, NIF, to release statements of, amongst other tings, services provided by this firm (called First House) in connection with our campaign to get the Winter Olympics. Rumor has it that the campaign was not entirely clean. The press conference both with Sundby and Johaug are handled in a manner with the First House footprint all over it. Information is strategically planned and hid/leaked when necessary so it is obvious there is some kind of spin their doing with great success.
There is also a connection to the Norwegian government as one of the firms former employees is currently a minister in our government. No one has made any accusations, but I'm telling you this to try to show how interconnected and ethically grey our society really is. I would not exclude certain things compromising leading Norwegian politicians in this matter, but for now NIF has denied access to the information. No wonder the organizations standing is at an all time low.
 
Re: Re:

Felice Gimondi said:
python said:
good post, felice.

i wonder why the media is so disinterested in exploring the real biggy in the sundby case... no, not that he was abusing the asthma med dosage, not that he used an instrument used only in the hospitals, but the absolute and total attempt to conceal his case from the public ? why the norwegians are not suspicious that when one tries to hide a simple med for which he is entitled, he may have more to hide ? why, the coach's and the officials 'we have nothing to hide' is not taken apart in the light of the sundby case ?

this is what mystifies me about the norwegian attitude ?
Journalists asking tough questions are boycotted and discredited publicly from both leaders and athletes. A journalist said in an interview with team manager Løfshus that Sundby had actually been a doper as a result of getting a suspension for violating the rules to which Løfshus denied this pointing to FIS's decision and not mentioning that this decision was later appealed by CAS who did give Sundby a doping suspension. You have to give it to NSF that they have immense influence in Norwegian society, just look at the leaks about emails denying people connected to NIF to make any statements, calls and emails sent to leading journalists trying to influence them and even harassing them when they have made what seem critical comments to NFS in the media.

Also, some back ground information is interesting. NSF probably still employs a lobbyist firm known for its resources and connections all over, this is not public information and my speculation only, but it is very likely. An effort in other media branches in Norway is being made to get the general sports society, NIF, to release statements of, amongst other tings, services provided by this firm (called First House) in connection with our campaign to get the Winter Olympics. Rumor has it that the campaign was not entirely clean. The press conference both with Sundby and Johaug are handled in a manner with the First House footprint all over it. Information is strategically planned and hid/leaked when necessary so it is obvious there is some kind of spin their doing with great success.
There is also a connection to the Norwegian government as one of the firms former employees is currently a minister in our government. No one has made any accusations, but I'm telling you this to try to show how interconnected and ethically grey our society really is. I would not exclude certain things compromising leading Norwegian politicians in this matter, but for now NIF has denied access to the information. No wonder the organizations standing is at an all time low.
Good stuff. What do you think about Linda Hofstad Helleland and WADA? To me it seems rather wrong to have a high ranking government official in charge or second in charge of an International "Ethics" Organization.
 
Jul 19, 2009
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Re: Re:

BullsFan22 said:
Felice Gimondi said:
python said:
good post, felice.

i wonder why the media is so disinterested in exploring the real biggy in the sundby case... no, not that he was abusing the asthma med dosage, not that he used an instrument used only in the hospitals, but the absolute and total attempt to conceal his case from the public ? why the norwegians are not suspicious that when one tries to hide a simple med for which he is entitled, he may have more to hide ? why, the coach's and the officials 'we have nothing to hide' is not taken apart in the light of the sundby case ?

this is what mystifies me about the norwegian attitude ?
Journalists asking tough questions are boycotted and discredited publicly from both leaders and athletes. A journalist said in an interview with team manager Løfshus that Sundby had actually been a doper as a result of getting a suspension for violating the rules to which Løfshus denied this pointing to FIS's decision and not mentioning that this decision was later appealed by CAS who did give Sundby a doping suspension. You have to give it to NSF that they have immense influence in Norwegian society, just look at the leaks about emails denying people connected to NIF to make any statements, calls and emails sent to leading journalists trying to influence them and even harassing them when they have made what seem critical comments to NFS in the media.

Also, some back ground information is interesting. NSF probably still employs a lobbyist firm known for its resources and connections all over, this is not public information and my speculation only, but it is very likely. An effort in other media branches in Norway is being made to get the general sports society, NIF, to release statements of, amongst other tings, services provided by this firm (called First House) in connection with our campaign to get the Winter Olympics. Rumor has it that the campaign was not entirely clean. The press conference both with Sundby and Johaug are handled in a manner with the First House footprint all over it. Information is strategically planned and hid/leaked when necessary so it is obvious there is some kind of spin their doing with great success.
There is also a connection to the Norwegian government as one of the firms former employees is currently a minister in our government. No one has made any accusations, but I'm telling you this to try to show how interconnected and ethically grey our society really is. I would not exclude certain things compromising leading Norwegian politicians in this matter, but for now NIF has denied access to the information. No wonder the organizations standing is at an all time low.
Good stuff. What do you think about Linda Hofstad Helleland and WADA? To me it seems rather wrong to have a high ranking government official in charge or second in charge of an International "Ethics" Organization.
Well, Linda H. Helleland is involved and makes some statements as she is the highest ranking government official for sports, but NIF and NSF are autonomous organizations in Norway where the minister has limited powers in directing NIF and NSF to comply with rules elsewhere in Norwegian society. She has expressed criticism towards NSF but I'm sure she is well aware of her limited tools and even consider that as an advantage at this point.

Helleland is next in line of a long Norwegian effort of promoting Norway and Norwegians as being in front on all international issues be it peace, humanitarian, UN an all sorts of such things. Cynics in Norway have long ago labelled this behaviour and analysed our department of foreign affairs to have great priorities of promoting Norway politically in the international community.
 
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