Doping in XC skiing

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Well, the decision's been delayed over an hour already. Plenty of debate to be had.

I find it a difficult one. Really, for the Russians some high ups in RUSADA, the SBR and their XC fed need to fall for real change to be effected. At the same time, the 'list of 31' varies wildly in its issues, from pretty cut and dried (Glazyrina has two tests positive for three different substances, for example), to unclear (none of Malyshko's samples have any results whatsoever, so likely are among those to have gone missing?) to wildly speculative (a number of people appear on the list without a positive, without any stated issue regarding the sample, and with the sample having come back negative), so even picking out which athletes to ban will vary wildly in interpretations. Do you ban an athlete who, on the face of it has done nothing wrong, but where the fed have interfered on the athlete's behalf and committed an offence? I certainly feel for a large number of athletes who may be involved in such a way (regardless of whether they may or may not have been doping). And certainly the list of 31 seems to refer to three categories:

1) Those who were part of the Olympic team. These divide quite neatly between the women's team with clear offences and the men with, Lapshin apart, more unclear status.
2) Those who were competing for a spot in the Junior team in the run-up to Sochi 2014. Of the 12 athletes in this category, all are named just once, on one specific date, and 11 of the tests came back negative, the 12th (Evsyunina) does not appear to have been tested.
3) Seeming 'lone wolf' positives or AAFs from the Russian national calendar.

I think group 1 is the only real concern really when it comes to making a decision regards whether to suspend the whole team. Group 3 types are always going to come about, and many of them are no-names competing domestically only, and the only ones that aren't also returned AAFs as part of competition for group 1 anyway (Lapshin and Glazyrina). Apart from Evsyunina's sample not being tested there is nothing immediately visible to be concerned about among the juniors. But the variations among the Olympic team are clearly where the issue lies.

Although the Ostrov Junior Worlds was decided some time ago, in fairness awarding the World Championships to Tyumen' with this hanging over the head of the SBR was just a stupid decision by the IBU.
 
Re:

Libertine Seguros said:
Well, the decision's been delayed over an hour already. Plenty of debate to be had.

I find it a difficult one. Really, for the Russians some high ups in RUSADA, the SBR and their XC fed need to fall for real change to be effected. At the same time, the 'list of 31' varies wildly in its issues, from pretty cut and dried (Glazyrina has two tests positive for three different substances, for example), to unclear (none of Malyshko's samples have any results whatsoever, so likely are among those to have gone missing?) to wildly speculative (a number of people appear on the list without a positive, without any stated issue regarding the sample, and with the sample having come back negative), so even picking out which athletes to ban will vary wildly in interpretations. Do you ban an athlete who, on the face of it has done nothing wrong, but where the fed have interfered on the athlete's behalf and committed an offence? I certainly feel for a large number of athletes who may be involved in such a way (regardless of whether they may or may not have been doping). And certainly the list of 31 seems to refer to three categories:

1) Those who were part of the Olympic team. These divide quite neatly between the women's team with clear offences and the men with, Lapshin apart, more unclear status.
2) Those who were competing for a spot in the Junior team in the run-up to Sochi 2014. Of the 12 athletes in this category, all are named just once, on one specific date, and 11 of the tests came back negative, the 12th (Evsyunina) does not appear to have been tested.
3) Seeming 'lone wolf' positives or AAFs from the Russian national calendar.

I think group 1 is the only real concern really when it comes to making a decision regards whether to suspend the whole team. Group 3 types are always going to come about, and many of them are no-names competing domestically only, and the only ones that aren't also returned AAFs as part of competition for group 1 anyway (Lapshin and Glazyrina). Apart from Evsyunina's sample not being tested there is nothing immediately visible to be concerned about among the juniors. But the variations among the Olympic team are clearly where the issue lies.

Although the Ostrov Junior Worlds was decided some time ago, in fairness awarding the World Championships to Tyumen' with this hanging over the head of the SBR was just a stupid decision by the IBU.

It was the SBR that decided to pull Ostrov and Tyumen. It wasn't the IBU. I think that can mean two or three things. One, they did it voluntarily so they don't have to deal with the politics and potential boycotts and the usual rumors and calls for action (ad nauseam), two, they did it to perhaps take some heat off themselves and paint themselves as 'honorable' and not trying to prolong anything. Three, and this one or may not be an 'all of the above' sort of pick, but something was obviously very wrong and they (the SBR) know it and are essentially taking the blame, hence the voluntary pull of the world cup and world juniors. Not sure what the fate of the 2021 worlds is now, but they may pull out of that as well. I've heard they've sold a lot of tickets for Tyumen. Hopefully the fans that paid for those tickets will be refunded.

I don't think this is a done deal. There will be a push to DQ the entire federation by aforementioned federations.
 
Re: Re:

red_flanders said:
BullsFan22 said:
python said:
any one wants to take a stab at what the ibu will decide at its punitive meeting today ?

here goes mine:
i do not believe they will resort to a total ban of a federation like the athletics. it's not warranted, nor is fair to those who are and were clean. otoh, if there are specific names and a hard evidence against the names, they should receive a suspension according to the wada rules with a guarantee of appeal. if the only evidence is based on the words of a self-admitted corrupt individual like rodchenkov, it showed be thrown out. if corroborated by some additional tests, the athletes should receive a ban.

perhaps if a doped group is numerous, i would understand the suspension of hosting the competitions for a season or 2.

anything more, i would consider excessive.

I know what all the holier-than-thou Americans, Canadians, Brits, Czechs, want...see the entire biathlon federation banned, stripped of results, banned from competing in Hochfilzen, next year's Olympics, and Tyumen and Ostrov world cup/junior worlds taken away and also the 2021 Tyumen world champs taken away.

My take? I think that will happen.
There's an American who cares about biathlon? Who woulda thunk it.
They only seem to care when doping conversations start. Then they come out like ants out of the woodwork.
 
I actually made that post before the announcement came so I was still talking about the speculative responses at that point.

It may well be that the SBR have made the decision, as you say, to sort of smooth things off. Offering it before it's meted out as a punishment is a great step towards that. Accept the pain for the time being but be cooperative in order to keep the team intact. They've got all of the investigations underway, but I'd be fairly confident a lot of those athletes are likely to be cleared, most likely those listed but with nothing against their name (most of the juniors). Russian sponsorship and eyes are probably worth a fair amount in the sport to be honest, so they don't want to straight up exclude the whole country. However, there is still a lot of resentment of that Russian team and they can expect a frosty reception for the rest of the season at least even if, Shipulin excepted, the most prominent Russians this season (Tsvetkov, Babikov and Akimova) are not mentioned in the report.

Another issue now is that surely Zaitseva's position is now untenable.
 
Re:

Libertine Seguros said:
I actually made that post before the announcement came so I was still talking about the speculative responses at that point.

It may well be that the SBR have made the decision, as you say, to sort of smooth things off. Offering it before it's meted out as a punishment is a great step towards that. Accept the pain for the time being but be cooperative in order to keep the team intact. They've got all of the investigations underway, but I'd be fairly confident a lot of those athletes are likely to be cleared, most likely those listed but with nothing against their name (most of the juniors). Russian sponsorship and eyes are probably worth a fair amount in the sport to be honest, so they don't want to straight up exclude the whole country. However, there is still a lot of resentment of that Russian team and they can expect a frosty reception for the rest of the season at least even if, Shipulin excepted, the most prominent Russians this season (Tsvetkov, Babikov and Akimova) are not mentioned in the report.

Another issue now is that surely Zaitseva's position is now untenable.
It appears it was two female skiers. Not 100% if it's Zaitseva. It could be her, it could also be Vilukhina, she suddenly retired, it could be Glazyrina...

Now comes the waiting game for the cross country skiers. I think they will be hit hard. I am not liking the rumors that I am hearing from the Russians. It appears that they McLaren reports (I'll repeat, I didn't read the first or second report) had smoke but the fire was not found. That may or may not be the case with the xc skiers. FIS has actually sounded a lot more pragmatic or at least been more quiet, and so have the world cup racers, apart from the usual knee jerk reactions from North Americans. As you rightly pointed out, DQ'ing the entire Russian biathlon federation would have resulted in quite a loss for the IBU, in terms of money, fans and obviously the competitive Russian team. While the Russians are and have been fairly competitive, their men, very much so, in xc, their loss would not be as big a loss for FIS.

What's your take on xc?
 
Re:

python said:
any one wants to take a stab at what the ibu will decide at its punitive meeting today ?

here goes mine:
i do not believe they will resort to a total ban of a federation like the athletics. it's not warranted, nor is fair to those who are and were clean. otoh, if there are specific names and a hard evidence against the names, they should receive a suspension according to the wada rules with a guarantee of appeal. if the only evidence is based on the words of a self-admitted corrupt individual like rodchenkov, it showed be thrown out. if corroborated by some additional tests, the athletes should receive a ban.

perhaps if a doped group is numerous, i would understand the suspension of hosting the competitions for a season or 2.

anything more, i would consider excessive.
It seems that you were correct...
 
Sep 25, 2009
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i'd call the ibu decision balanced. it was pretty much along my expectations described in an earlier post today.

while the investigation into the 29 cases will continue, i am encouraged by the besseberg statement, that the ibu can't sanction based on just a suspicion.

here's an important observation. the fact that none of the 29 are officially suspended, that is, they can continue competing, (unlike an automatic suspension had they failed an A sample) indicates that mclaren has NOT made a strong case in his secret attachment. as i suspected, he probably mostly refers to the circumstantial evidence, including a certain mr rodchenkov who i know for a fact is a lowly crook. not that all he said was false.

looking forward to more sanity. btw, the way ibu is handling the mclaren report may give some good clues as to how the fis may handle their part. i seriously suspect, the mclaren secret report as it relates to the sport of xc skiing is even less convincing.
 
It could also be the case that the the IBU and RBU (SRB) came to an agreement, voluntarily strip yourself of your home events, OR risk further investigations which could lead to not only the stripping of events, but inflict major damage by banning the entire federation from the rest of the this season and potentially next year as well. This year it's the world's in Hochfilzen and next year it's the Olympics in South Korea, of course.

Who will they give the final this year? Well, it could be one of the vocal anti-Russian groups, Czechs (even though Nove Mesto just got done and they hosted other biathlon world cup events in the not too distant past and obviously the 2013 world's), the Norwegians (not likely, as they hosted last year in Oslo), the North Americans (quite probable, either Canmore or Presque Isle-even though the fan turnout wouldn't be as large, though they too held events last year in February. France is another possibility-probably Annecy. There's nothing in Britain, so nobody will vote for them (sorry Goldstrom, Dixon and Winterton). The others are the baltic states, particularly Latvia, but when was the last time they hosted an international competition, a world cup specifically?
 
Oct 18, 2016
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BullsFan22 said:
It could also be the case that the the IBU and RBU (SRB) came to an agreement, voluntarily strip yourself of your home events, OR risk further investigations which could lead to not only the stripping of events, but inflict major damage by banning the entire federation from the rest of the this season and potentially next year as well. This year it's the world's in Hochfilzen and next year it's the Olympics in South Korea, of course.

Who will they give the final this year? Well, it could be one of the vocal anti-Russian groups, Czechs (even though Nove Mesto just got done and they hosted other biathlon world cup events in the not too distant past and obviously the 2013 world's), the Norwegians (not likely, as they hosted last year in Oslo), the North Americans (quite probable, either Canmore or Presque Isle-even though the fan turnout wouldn't be as large, though they too held events last year in February. France is another possibility-probably Annecy. There's nothing in Britain, so nobody will vote for them (sorry Goldstrom, Dixon and Winterton). The others are the baltic states, particularly Latvia, but when was the last time they hosted an international competition, a world cup specifically?
I don't think any decision has been made, but Kontiolahti would be a fairly logical choice and the Lahti WC will already be over by then. The weekend before is in South Korea, the following is in Oslo. I don't believe that it'll be in North America, it'd be a logistical nightmare.
 
Re: Re:

BullsFan22 said:
kingjr said:
Speaking of Russian biathletes and doping, Loginov is back. Came in 4th in Obertilliach in the 20k race. 40 seconds slower on the tracks than L'Abee-Lund, could have been worse. Hope to see him at WC level again soon.
Wonder if his name is one the list.
Twice - a urine test on January 6th 2014 (came back negative) and a blood sample for which no date or result is recorded.

Like I say, there are a number of people who appear on the list for whom there seems to be little real reason for any wrongdoing. If Evsyunina's test had been correctly scrutinized and come back negative, you could probably scratch all 12 of the juniors, for whom there's only one entry, on the same date. The January 6th test appears to have covered most of the World Cup team, and all came back negative though there's some suspicion of a sample swap on Romanova's test, so all of the tests on that date have been included in the list.
 
Erwin said:
BullsFan22 said:
It could also be the case that the the IBU and RBU (SRB) came to an agreement, voluntarily strip yourself of your home events, OR risk further investigations which could lead to not only the stripping of events, but inflict major damage by banning the entire federation from the rest of the this season and potentially next year as well. This year it's the world's in Hochfilzen and next year it's the Olympics in South Korea, of course.

Who will they give the final this year? Well, it could be one of the vocal anti-Russian groups, Czechs (even though Nove Mesto just got done and they hosted other biathlon world cup events in the not too distant past and obviously the 2013 world's), the Norwegians (not likely, as they hosted last year in Oslo), the North Americans (quite probable, either Canmore or Presque Isle-even though the fan turnout wouldn't be as large, though they too held events last year in February. France is another possibility-probably Annecy. There's nothing in Britain, so nobody will vote for them (sorry Goldstrom, Dixon and Winterton). The others are the baltic states, particularly Latvia, but when was the last time they hosted an international competition, a world cup specifically?
I don't think any decision has been made, but Kontiolahti would be a fairly logical choice and the Lahti WC will already be over by then. The weekend before is in South Korea, the following is in Oslo. I don't believe that it'll be in North America, it'd be a logistical nightmare.
Almaty hosts the Universiade in February, might be another alternative that would be similar in terms of travel to Tyumen' between Pyeongchang and Oslo.

BullsFan - if they do the Baltic states then surely Otepää has to be the front-runner? They hosted the European Championships quite recently.
 
http://www.bbc.com/sport/winter-sports/38411815
"Despite the Russian Biathlon Union saying the country should "only be punished if our guilt can be properly proved", the move was welcomed by Anders Besseberg, president of the International Biathlon Union."
Now we get to the problem mentioned in Sweden about proving who is guilty. Every Russian though will participate with a big cloud hanging over them, even if they've never had a positive doping sample.
 
http://www.dn.se/sport/sex-ryska-langdskidakare-misstanka-for-dopning/
http://www.bbc.com/sport/athletics/38415869
"Twenty eight Russian competitors face disciplinary proceedings after their urine samples from the 2014 Winter Olympics were allegedly manipulated.

The samples were highlighted in the McLaren report, which outlined a state-sponsored doping programme in Russia between 2011 and 2015.

Now the International Olympic Committee (IOC) is reanalysing the samples, which it warns could lead to sanctions.

According to McLaren's report - which was commissioned by the World Anti-Doping Agency (Wada) - salt and coffee were used to manipulate Russian samples and there were also cases of female ice hockey players having male urine samples."(!)
6 apparently are XC skiiers according to Sweden's Dagens Nyheter
 
Robert5091 said:
http://www.bbc.com/sport/winter-sports/38411815
"Despite the Russian Biathlon Union saying the country should "only be punished if our guilt can be properly proved", the move was welcomed by Anders Besseberg, president of the International Biathlon Union."
Now we get to the problem mentioned in Sweden about proving who is guilty. Every Russian though will participate with a big cloud hanging over them, even if they've never had a positive doping sample.


It's a joke sport anyway.
 
So they'll sanction the Russians without any of the athletes giving their defense? Is the criminal Rodchenkov WADA's only source of information on this? Either Roschenkov and his co-conspirators acted on their own or the athletes, coaches, staff, etc was in on it. Vaelbe has responded and said that she knows that the athletes were not responsible. It was all Rodchenkov. I want to hear Legkov, Petukhov, Vylegzhanin, Belov, Shapovalova, Ivanova's, responses to this. Really the only guy that's had to answer questions since these allegations broke in May was Legkov. He's been adamant that he's never even met Rodchenkov. Hopefully due process is taken.
 
So the Brits, strapped for cash, back out of a far away event, but don't neglect the opportunity to please some Britsh NATO politicians (sponsors).
It's about the doping thing, surely. What else could it be?
 
Re:

Cloxxki said:
So the Brits, strapped for cash, back out of a far away event, but don't neglect the opportunity to please some Britsh NATO politicians (sponsors).
It's about the doping thing, surely. What else could it be?

Exactly. The Russians will be suspended while the Norwegians will win relays, crowd the top 10, Sundby will dominate and all is right in the world. I mean for goodness sake Vidar Loefshus, the national team coach said that the national team will continue with their asthma medications. He said this in public, no reservations, no regrets, nothing. They'll continue to dope in broad daylight and there's nothing anyone will do about it. I get it, the Russians are easy targets, but to me they are targeted not really for the practice of doping itself (even though with Rodchenkov, the criminal that he is, I don't believe the cocktail, salt, coffee, water, etc stories in terms of the methods used), but politics. I am interested to see how the Russian Ski Federation will react to this as this moves forward.
 
At the moment?
When was the last time the West did care about harrassed Russians?
Must have been before my time. Before the cold war. Hopefully after WWII there was a brief moment of Western affection for them?
 
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