- Feb 20, 2010
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kingjr said:
True, however, the IBU confirmed athletes are provisionally suspended. Both genders, Russian and Lithuanian. It seems the Russians have confirmed they have two, both women, which means it must be a Lithuanian man. If the positive tests came at Annecy and Oberhof, it must be a World Cup name. Lithuania only had three male athletes at those World Cups, and since Kaukėnas and Dombrovski are racing at present, they can't be provisionally suspended, which leaves Zlatkauskas.
- Jun 22, 2010
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Looks like Bjoergen is peaking nicely (again) for the big championships. Funny how every season she comes up with excuses of heart problems, chest pain, cold, virus, being tired, yet comes up trumps the very next race she enters. It's obvious on big championship seasons, she is gonna miss the tour de ski one way or another. It's uncanny, though, how she races sparingly these days yet doesn't really have a bad race. I wonder what 'program' she is on? I am sure I will get the same excuses and explanations like the ones I heard from the Armstrong huggers a decade ago. I hope the Mads Drange story doesn't disappear.
- Apr 29, 2011
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BullsFan22 said:
So what else is New? Bjørgen can not give 100% in all the WC races and do a good championship. Seems her battery needs extra time to fully recharge.
http://www.vg.no/sport/ol-2014/artikkel.php?artid=10128917
Another known EPO Russian (any clean Russian?) claiming IBU catch whoever they want and close their eyes to the Norwegians. He also refers to Drage’s book and claim Norwegian do not take EPO tests. I’ve read the book and they do take EPO tests. (From the book I understood that the Dutch do not do blood test and therefore are unable to catch EPO users.) Drage claims that a few Norwegian have doped (found proof early when establishing bloodprofiles with no possibility to sanction the athlete) and they intensified testing to catch them however they were unsuccessful.
I think Russian anti doping people know better than the doped to the gills Jarosjenko. Drage writes about the Russian press to and they are just like Dopojenko.
- May 19, 2010
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Velo1ticker said:
Urine samples are used for testing EPO.
http://www.wada-ama.org/en/Resources/Q-and-A/EPO-Detection/
And as can be seen from the WADA 2012 Anti-Doping Testing Figures Report (p. 47) the Dutch are testing for EPO, in 2012 Anti Doping Authority the Netherlands tested 177 samples collected in competition for EPO and 163 samples collected out of competition. 340 EPO tests in all. So this about the Dutch and no EPO testing is not true.
Yaroshenko is of course wrong when he claims Mads Drange writes there is no EPO testing in Norway. He doesn't say that, and anyone can check the numbers in the WADA report (p. 47)
- Sep 25, 2009
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if you read the book with just 1 /2 of your mind open , you would easily realize, that the russian doper interpretation, while deliberately inaccurate to justify his own doping, was much closer to what drange's real message was - epo testing by anti-doping norway is grossly inadequate. a common sense interpretation - ineffective or useless.Velo1ticker said:
http://www.nrk.no/sport/_-fortsatt-lett-a-dope-seg-i-idrett-1.11470992
of 1000 urine samples only 81 were analyzed for epo. if you add to this, what we already knew and drange only reiterated, that beating the epo test is very easy, than saying that noeway does test for epo sounds, and i dont accuse you of bad intentions, like you're misinformed..
of course, it would be an unreasonable stretch to take this drange stat as evidence of doping among norwegian xc skiers. but it is equally unreasonable to ignore drange's message.
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Well, I think Drage said they check the blood with/to the biopassport to decide weather or not they should do EPO test. Hence all blood tests are screened, not tested, but nevertheless screened. If they don’t take blood test it is a lottery witch samples that are EPO tested. That is why I mentioned the Dutch who only do urine. The screening is in itself a test isn’t, and wouldn’t that mean a large number of cheap tests? I guess a (very) few samples will be EPO tested regardless. The Dutch may very well have a different strategic approach to the blood screening process You claim I am misinformed and I would like to say Dopojenko is twisting facts. I am not talking about the general ineffectiveness world wide. When testing is ineffective we can argue how valuable it is to be among the best in the class, as Norway is, but it is strange to claim that some nations are protected. Someone please inform Mr Tysse.python said:
If you test your athletes at times it suits them, screening is useless. They'll all be well within normal margins. No need to EPO test them.Velo1ticker said:
It's bad enough that we depend on NATIONAL anti-doping agencies to test NATIONAL heroes. And that they're chronically underfunded in a world where sport pays so handsomely.
If only we could get local sponsors to support the national ADA's, and have them be allowed to go out and scrutiny the competition. Although even that system screams for corruption.
Right back at you. Or at least you are misinforming. Because the sentence you quoted is not about Anti-doping Norway -- it's about international testing. I don't know if he writes anything about the number of tests Anti-doping Norway does (he probably does), but that's not it.python said:
In the end the book is not just about the inadequate testing in Norway, but more about inadequate testing (that's easy to beat) everywhere.
- Jul 21, 2012
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Velo1ticker said:
XC skiing is like a religion in Norway. With the amount of money involved, im sure its easier to set up an undetectable program there, than for some guy doping on his own in a joke sport that no one cares about.
- May 19, 2010
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There is no wonder some persons can be nourishing the idea that the Norwegians are protected when IBU president Anders Besseberg says stuff like "At Emil føler det er mindre testing enn før kan skyldes at vi en periode var nødt til å teste mange utøvere både dag og natt, da vi jaktet tre russiske utøvere. Vi kunne ikke bare teste knallhardt på dem. For ikke å spre mistanke måtte vi teste nasjoner som Norge og Sverige ofte også"
Besseberg has said repeatedly that IBU are doing targeted testing, not just a lot of random testing. They are using blood data to target suspect biathletes. Just like there are rumors that Verbruggen caught only those he wanted to catch, persons like Yaroshenko will think IBU are catching him, but letting the Norwegians get away with it (because the IBU president is Norwegian).
IAAF caught Erik Tysse, not IBU (of course) or the Norwegian Anti-Doping Agency or WADA. It fits well with conspiracy theorists like Yaroshenko, the Norwegians aren't very dominant in IAAF.
Besseberg has said repeatedly that IBU are doing targeted testing, not just a lot of random testing. They are using blood data to target suspect biathletes. Just like there are rumors that Verbruggen caught only those he wanted to catch, persons like Yaroshenko will think IBU are catching him, but letting the Norwegians get away with it (because the IBU president is Norwegian).
IAAF caught Erik Tysse, not IBU (of course) or the Norwegian Anti-Doping Agency or WADA. It fits well with conspiracy theorists like Yaroshenko, the Norwegians aren't very dominant in IAAF.
- Sep 25, 2009
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not only you intentionally minimizing what drange's book is about, but you purposely distorting what you compatriot's message to fanboys like yourself was. if epo testing is ineffective everywhere, it is ineffective in norway too. drange's clear message was that it is happening in Norway too and he wanted to warn his compatriots he gave examples of how the sophisticated norwegian dopers, once they learned that they are tracked, either dropped out or changed their doping routines to stay under the radar.MrRoboto said:
when those who supposed to be in check learn that something is ineffective, they very soon take advantage of it. this is human nature. if you believe that norwegians are not the subject to human nature, then you probably don't believe that breivik was norwegian.
and the evasive, incomplete or downright obfuscating moves of the norwegian xc ski fed about blood samples from the 90s don't help.
- Aug 9, 2012
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python said:
He points out you are being misleading, and you accuse him of being a fan boy and purposely misleading.
Perhaps a simple, sorry, what I meant to say was etc.... And could you provide a direct quote from dranges book? I'm sorry but I don't trust your understanding of Dranges intentions.Evasive and obfuscating? What was it you wanted from them? Is it because what they put forward did not show what you wanted it to show?
And if it's so easy to cheat the testers, why did these last two Russians get popped. I mean the Russians federations can use all the money they want. Money could easily be diverted to things few know about. And father and son Dmitrijev have been in the doping business for like ever.
Even if they are not the brightest guys, they are doctors and should easily beat any testers. Yet their clients got caught?
- Sep 25, 2009
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let's start from the end of your reply
it is the same system in norway and everywhere. and drange rightly said it is easy beat.
@torebear
just saw you post and decided to add...yes, the fanboyism keeps some blinded. there is no way to say it softer. you have shown (in the other thread) that you are ready to use hypocritical standards when northug is the subject. thus you are one of them. as to your trust or not of my interpretation of drange, i dont care all that much. i do know the sport, its history and a little about anti-doping.that's all i need to to assume that norwegians can dope as much and as little as anyone else. as to the russian doping, you are just babbling, i am a consistent skeptic of their system. i suggest you get more sleep, my friend.
i don't believe i ever claimed that today's norwegian xc skiers are doped or protected. in fact, i do lean towards the opinion, similar to drange's, that both sweden and norway are probably better off in the regard than most of their competitors...are they protected ? again, i don't know and this is all i can say. but if you you search the thread, you will find some known older examples (posted by me and others) of fis getting, well, not exactly corrupted in the verbruggen sense, but somewhat deliberately blind or conveniently soft occasionally. i dont know if favouritism towards norwegians exists in fis, but i remain open-minded about the potential and just observe.Velo1ticker said:
this is about right. i think that drange's message was deeper. it has to do with the 'room for maneuver' left by the 2-step anti-doping testing. the 1st screening test is even easier to beat than the following, more specific, 2nd test. in the case of urine epo testing, strictly speaking, there is no screening test, like for example a t/e ratio would be a screen for the irms exogenous testosterone or anabolic steroids test. drange referred to BP blood testing not as a screen but as a targeting tool for who should be urine epo tested. it works if used intelligently. but the real message was that even when they got their gun sights zeroed via blood testing, they could not shoot because: (i). it is easy to beat the urine EPO test (we know how from floyd - by microdosing 5-10 units every second day into the vein between 10 pm and 6am) and (ii) by carefully managing own blood profile against excessive spikes, as drange told us, was done by those norwegians they targeted and tracked.
it is the same system in norway and everywhere. and drange rightly said it is easy beat.
@torebear
just saw you post and decided to add...yes, the fanboyism keeps some blinded. there is no way to say it softer. you have shown (in the other thread) that you are ready to use hypocritical standards when northug is the subject. thus you are one of them. as to your trust or not of my interpretation of drange, i dont care all that much. i do know the sport, its history and a little about anti-doping.that's all i need to to assume that norwegians can dope as much and as little as anyone else. as to the russian doping, you are just babbling, i am a consistent skeptic of their system. i suggest you get more sleep, my friend.
- Feb 20, 2010
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Well, we do know that the Russian system does still have a lot of "old school" people in it who like to rely on "old school" methods. Pichler introducing a bunch of new ideas and his methods was not popular with a number of regional coaches and bosses who preferred to rely on what they saw as time-honoured methods even when those methods were no longer producing the results (the question then has to be, how much information is shared since the Russian men seem to be pretty strong in both biathlon and XC, but apart from a couple of notable exceptions e.g. Tchekaleva, nothing like as competitive on the women's side of things). It isn't an unreasonable stretch to imagine that the medical side of things would be caught up in the same way of thinking, where even if everybody's doping, methods have moved on. Doping methods become outmoded as they become testable. Who got busted for darbo once Mühlegg had been outed? How many CERA positives did we see after the Tour in 2008? I mean, for tests that happened after that? di Luca was about the only high profile case, because it stays in your bloodstream for a month, which makes it far too high risk.ToreBear said:
My personal impression is that with apart from maybe Zaitseva and Vilukhina nobody having a safe spot in the Olympic team in Russia, due to them having a huge number of athletes but few real international standouts, with the prospect of an Olympics at home, athletes had to take risks to get selected. They had to get results early in the season to justify being selected, then defend their squad position after that. Irina Starykh probably took too much of a risk trying to produce the results that would give her a chance to appear at her home Olympics - she had been a fringe member of the squad last season. I wouldn't be surprised if they target-tested her - her meteoric rise raised a number of red flags. Iourieva perhaps had a similar position, but also as she's a few years older, this would probably be her last chance to do the Olympics; because of her ban and her fight to get back into the squad she isn't entrenched in the team like Zaitseva is; so when she's four years older the team would probably have moved on. Bearing in mind she's 30 and has already been banned once, and the number of young Russians currently showing well on the IBU Cup and in the European Championships - Nechkasova's 24, Virolaynen 25, Nikulina 22, Kaisheva 19, Podchufarova 21, Zagoruiko 25, Shcherbinina 22, Mironova 19, Evsyunina 20, Suraeva 23, Perminova 22 and Pashkova 21 - she probably feels her career is over if she drops out of the squad again, and dared risk it one more time for the Olympics.
It's probably more about the athletes taking more risks with the dosage than it is with the incompetence of the doctors allowing the positive tests, though I do not discard the latter as a possibility (however I would anticipate it being due more to blockheadedness than foolishness).
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we don't know yet the reason(s). everything points to epo, but nothing officially has been confirmed. they got popped because they did it incorrectly. period. why the russians get popped morefrequently than other nations, well, because they are being watched more diligently (rep is pep) and because being mostly isolated from the western colleagues , they have lost the medical/scientific edge they once had.Libertine Seguros said:
after the break up of the su, formerly centralized and lavishly funded system, at least for several years, was left to survive on its own. many 'medical pros' left, emigrated etc, the biochemical research in sports simply stopped for lack of funds. and it is still basically the same - individuals small groups highly competitive with each other. formerly doped fathers became personal coaches to their sons and daughters (you probably can come up with several names just as i can), being in turn incorporated into other groups inside the messy system of their ministry for sports...mess breeds problems.
the media jumped on the 2 doctors. aside from the fact that they were quietly hired despite their past, there is no evidence of their involvement yet. i would guess that the failure has more to do with the personal coaches not being up to date...it is a well known fact, that some russian epo variants were indeed undetectable until about 2-3 yeras ago. then, wada revised its tech document with the updated electropherograms, and, who knows, they may have been popped with that...
the rusada anti-doping efforts imo are genuine. but they are still politicized and inadequately funded.
- Aug 9, 2012
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python said:@torebear
just saw you post and decided to add...yes, the fanboyism keeps some blinded. there is no way to say it softer. you have shown (in the other thread) that you are ready to use hypocritical standards when northug is the subject. thus you are one of them. as to your trust or not of my interpretation of drange, i dont care all that much. i do know the sport, its history and a little about anti-doping.that's all i need to to assume that norwegians can dope as much and as little as anyone else. as to the russian doping, you are just babbling, i am a consistent skeptic of their system. i suggest you get more sleep, my friend.
1. In hypocritical standards, do you mean double standards? That would again be treating two equal situations differently. I don't know about you, but I tend to see team sprint and sprint as different events, hence aplying differing standars is essential.
2. Calling someone a fanboy seems to be a childish cop out used quite often on this forum for labeling posters one disagrees with. In this case I'm unable to see "the truth" because I am blinded by this mythical cognitive bias called fanboyism. Since your "truth" is the only truth, I must be a fanboy for having a different opinion. That is the impression you give when you call someone a fanboy.
3. As to my trust in your interpretation, I tend to be very skeptical of peoples interpretations. Confirmation bias is a strong factor in the clinic, and I'm unsure of whether this is a factor for you in this area. He might mean what you said, or perhaps a Journalist interpreted what he said and then wrote down what the journalist remembers Drange said. Hence why a quote from his book would clear any potential for a journalist to have made a mistake, that you might have assumed was a direct quote.
4. I am asking a simple question relating to logic. If it is so easy to beat the testers, how come these Russians got caught? It's not my theory about the Dimitrievs, it's the theory of former IBU vice president Aleksander Tikhonov.
http://www.vg.no/sport/ski/skiskyting/artikkel.php?artid=10128529
And yes I too believe Norwegians can dope dope just as much as the Swedes and Finns. I don't see any reason that they are different, since all are human.
I'm not qustioning you as a disbiliever in wheter there are problems in the Russian system. My point was to illustrate a likely doping scenario, and illustrate that these are not some dumb Russians who were unable to beat a system that is reportedly easy to beat.
As to your accusations of MrRoboto. You did not respond to his initial comment. That you were being misleading in your posting.
Highlighting "epo testing by anti-doping norway is grossly inadequate. a common sense interpretation - ineffective or useless."
And then adding:
Ifølge Drange ble det blant annet bare gjennomført 81 EPO-analyser av de totalt 1000 urinprøvene som ble tatt innen skøyting i 2012 – og at bare 46 av prøvene var tatt utenfor konkurranse.
As a basis for your argument that that Drange thinks testing in Norway is grossly inadequate is misleading since your quote is about the International Skating Union and not Anti Doping Norway.
Now the fact that you accuse him of being a fan boy and intentionally minimising etc. Tells me you followed the old adage that attack is the best defense.
Why did you do that? Were you unable to grasp the initial point that your quote was actually not about ADN? Were you angered when someone noticed your flawed argument? Were you lashing out because you didn't want to admit you made a mistake?
I wouldn't spend this time asking you if I didn't believe you had the potential to calmly gather information without letting your confirmation bias affect your encoding of that information.
I'm quite rested my friend, but are you?
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Libertine Seguros said:
I would think the more localized coaches might make such a mistake, but doctors at the federation level with years of experience would not make that mistake. They would adapt.
As to why the men are strong and not the women, especially in XC were the women are struggling. I think it has something to do with difference in assertiveness between the men and women. I think the men decided earlier that enough was enough, and they were able to get their way, by for example writing an open letter to President Medvedev(Kiriukov did that). The women were not willing to stick their heads out in the same way. Possibly because their leading figures at the time were doping. So you could say they have more recently gone cold Turkey, and discovered that beneath the doping, the talent wasn't that great.
Pichler I think was not brought in for results, he was brought in for clean results. Last year I think someone panicked because they weren't getting so good results. So they hired Polkhovskij to take charge of another group. I don't know what they expected, perhaps they thought he could arrange some stuff that was undetectable.
Now this is part of the problem I have with the argument that it's easy to beat the tests. If as it seems not out of the question this was organized by the doctors, why did they get caught?
Or if these two athletes were doing it without assistance. Then why did they get caught if it's so easy to beat the testers? It could be that they were desperate and took risks. But that means the testing works, since they got caught because they wanted to dope to a level that would allow them to be selected for the olympics. I also think they would have target tested them. Performances that seem odd + unusual blood patterns, should bring about attention.
On another note, have you heard anything about the Germans having a new powder or something? Ola Lunde mentioned it a while back, because the Germans had so good skis. I first noticed their skis in the race in france, when the German women women won the Relay IIRC. Since then, there were several races were the Germans had great skis in the beginning, but after a day or two the other nations would catch up.
- Sep 25, 2009
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@torebear
let me make it as short as i can given the longish post...
1. i called you and others with similar views on the potential norwegian doping fanboys not to diminish you, but to acknowledge your record - you have been very consistent in defending the opposite of the notion that the norwegians could dope in the 90s. there are many of your posts out there. an example, you called the word-wide respected Swedish anti-doping scientist who raised the possibility of norges doping in the period, some derogatory name like an 'old deranged crank' or something.. etc etc. perhaps you should quote yourself if you feel upset by the tag, it is probably because it could the truth, but i don't mean it meanly
2. everyone following xc sport knows that individual sprints are different from the team sprints. thanks for pointing this out. let me remind you the issue over which i called you hypocritical, it is still there in black and white. you said northug proved his right to belong to the norwegian sprint team, despite never actually qualifying b/c he won in sochi...... a year a ago. to which i reminded you, that not only the norwegian fed lied to the norwegian fans about northug's selection (which you seem to have acknowledged) but that jap/vyleg also won their event in sochi. yet you argued AGAINST their selection. here is the clear example of your double standard. your national hero, proved his right on long melted snow whereas in exactly the same situation, the same place, same snow and almost the same time the absolute winners in their own even did not deserve in your opinion. the logic of rights applied to your compatriot northug was inapplicable to others. etc etc.
3. read my 2 posts above, as to how, imo, some can get caught, while others sale through. it is plain childish to think that if one has money, he she can't get caught. it helps, no more.
let me make it as short as i can given the longish post...
1. i called you and others with similar views on the potential norwegian doping fanboys not to diminish you, but to acknowledge your record - you have been very consistent in defending the opposite of the notion that the norwegians could dope in the 90s. there are many of your posts out there. an example, you called the word-wide respected Swedish anti-doping scientist who raised the possibility of norges doping in the period, some derogatory name like an 'old deranged crank' or something.. etc etc. perhaps you should quote yourself
if you feel upset by the tag, it is probably because it could the truth, but i don't mean it meanly 2. everyone following xc sport knows that individual sprints are different from the team sprints. thanks for pointing this out. let me remind you the issue over which i called you hypocritical, it is still there in black and white. you said northug proved his right to belong to the norwegian sprint team, despite never actually qualifying b/c he won in sochi...... a year a ago. to which i reminded you, that not only the norwegian fed lied to the norwegian fans about northug's selection (which you seem to have acknowledged) but that jap/vyleg also won their event in sochi. yet you argued AGAINST their selection. here is the clear example of your double standard. your national hero, proved his right on long melted snow whereas in exactly the same situation, the same place, same snow and almost the same time the absolute winners in their own even did not deserve in your opinion. the logic of rights applied to your compatriot northug was inapplicable to others. etc etc.
3. read my 2 posts above, as to how, imo, some can get caught, while others sale through. it is plain childish to think that if one has money, he she can't get caught. it helps, no more.
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python said:@torebear
let me make it as short as i can given the longish post...
1. i called you and others with similar views on the potential norwegian doping fanboys not to diminish you, but to acknowledge your record - you have been very consistent in defending the opposite of the notion that the norwegians could dope in the 90s. there are many of your posts out there. an example, you called the word-wide respected Swedish anti-doping scientist who raised the possibility of norges doping in the period, some derogatory name like an 'old deranged crank' or something.. etc etc. perhaps you should quote yourself
2. everyone following xc sport knows that individual sprints are different from the team sprints. thanks for pointing this out. let me remind you the issue over which i called you hypocritical, it is still there in black and white. you said northug proved his right to belong to the norwegian sprint team, despite never actually qualifying b/c he won in sochi...... a year a ago. to which i reminded you, that not only the norwegian fed lied to the norwegian fans about northug's selection (which you seem to have acknowledged) but that jap/vyleg also won their event in sochi. yet you argued AGAINST their selection. here is the clear example of your double standard. your national hero, proved his right on long melted snow whereas in exactly the same situation, the same place, same snow and almost the same time the absolute winners in their own even did not deserve in your opinion. the logic of rights applied to your compatriot northug was inapplicable to others. etc etc.
3. read my 2 posts above, as to how, imo, some can get caught, while others sale through. it is plain childish to think that if one has money, he she can't get caught. it helps, no more.
I don't recall calling him any names, I have concerns about him, but that has more to do with an interview with him. I don't think I have done other than hint that his mind might no be as sharp. To be frank, in an interview with him I saw reduced resistance to suggestibility that was beyond what I consider normal(sign of reduced frontal lobe function). That and his son stepping into the debate last year to stop it, leaves me with the impression that he is a bit "weakened". And I suspect a lot of his old colleagues are aware of this, and out of respect for him, stay away from a debate with him.
No, I think you mean fanboy because you think that is the only reason for me to hold that view. Hence you elevate your view above mine.
So i guess you being a pedofile is not something that would upset you to hear. Unless you are a pedofile. I hope you understand the point. My reaction to being called something does not mean that something has any truth to it. It's simply flawed logic. I choose a very emotive example to illustrate this.
As for the sprint and the team sprint. They were a pair vs a single, I argued against the same pair as last year because I don't think what they bring to the table is enough this year.
In the single sprint, there were the same athletes that are likely to show up this year.
In the team sprint, one could say the competition will be different. Since few if any of the teams will remain the same.
I really don't get your hang up on Northug. He will be selected because he is thought to be a good canditate. I might say because he won last year. But I could add engine, finnishing speed, ability to manouver etc. But I'm sorry I really did'nt see a need for that, since I thought this was known about him.
This is not about who deserves, or has the right to, it's about who in my opinion has the best chance at winning.
3. My simple point is that it's not as easy to beat the testers as people think, simple, nothing more nothing less.
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frankly, this a bunch of crap. if you can't recall or bother to search, i will. you used a lowly form of attacking an aging man's mind, basically an age-related ad hominem, because he dared to challenge (very civilly and in a restraint manner) your belief system about your compatriots potentially doping. a very typical case for a fanboy in denial.ToreBear said:
that you feel that way, is a sign of insecurity in your own arguments. unlike you, i never consistently defended any skier regardless of nationality. i probably spend more times defending northug that criticizing, but because you are fan boy, you just skip over it.
more deranged babble. if you had the reason to say that, you'd have the point. this forum and this thread has never contained any discussions of pedofiles. that you bring this into the debate in response to me calling your written record a fanboyism, right away undermines your arguments and hilites the thickness of your skin
. and yes, you did call saltin derogatory age-related names, just like tried to do here... you can repeat your fable as many times as you want, it remains absolutely obvious, that you have applied a double standard because northug is god in your eyes. he is beyond normal rules of the game. may be, but this time may be not.
the only reason you think this way because it helps to promote your fix on your compatriots never failing a test. again, a fanboy logic.
There you go again Python. Forgot your medicine again? Lighten up man.
You've been here a while and ought to know better. Stay closer to topic, you are a nicer poster for everyone to enjoy that way.
Anyone who prefers Python to be his grumpy self and dig out the very last word of each argument with fellow posters, say "aye"!
You've been here a while and ought to know better. Stay closer to topic, you are a nicer poster for everyone to enjoy that way.
Anyone who prefers Python to be his grumpy self and dig out the very last word of each argument with fellow posters, say "aye"!
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i am plenty on topic, cloxx.
i am also plenty on record being restrained, considered and often defensive of norwegian skiers, many times other posters, including you sometimes, bringing unfounded suspicions. it is seldom beyond fun...
but sometimes i have to call things the way they are. particularly when
i encounter intransigence to a mere possibility of the norwegians doping...
comparing me to pedofiles because i think a view point smack of someone favouring his home folks, should be your concern.
i am also plenty on record being restrained, considered and often defensive of norwegian skiers, many times other posters, including you sometimes, bringing unfounded suspicions. it is seldom beyond fun...
but sometimes i have to call things the way they are. particularly when
i encounter intransigence to a mere possibility of the norwegians doping...
comparing me to pedofiles because i think a view point smack of someone favouring his home folks, should be your concern.
- Jun 22, 2010
- 5,017
- 1,103
- 20,680
Velo1ticker said:
Yeah, yeah, she needs to 're-charge' her batteries. I wonder what she is re-charging them with? The same stuff that Conconi and Ferrari were giving the Italians and Bjorn Daehlie and co back in the 80's and 90's?
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