Doping in XC skiing

[ToreBear]

frankly, this a bunch of crap. if you can't recall or bother to search, i will. you used a lowly form of attacking an aging man's mind, basically an age-related ad hominem, because he dared to challenge (very civilly and in a restraint manner) your belief system about your compatriots potentially doping. a very typical case for a fanboy in denial.
that you feel that way, is a sign of insecurity in your own arguments. unlike you, i never consistently defended any skier regardless of nationality. i probably spend more times defending northug that criticizing, but because you are fan boy, you just skip over it.

more deranged babble. if you had the reason to say that, you'd have the point. this forum and this thread has never contained any discussions of pedofiles. that you bring this into the debate in response to me calling your written record a fanboyism, right away undermines your arguments and hilites the thickness of your skin . and yes, you did call saltin derogatory age-related names, just like tried to do here...

you can repeat your fable as many times as you want, it remains absolutely obvious, that you have applied a double standard because northug is god in your eyes. he is beyond normal rules of the game. may be, but this time may be not.

the only reason you think this way because it helps to promote your fix on your compatriots never failing a test. again, a fanboy logic.

I could only find a post relating to not being updated, and mentioning that with age tends to come an inflexibility in viewpoint.

I might have missed some quote. You see, I think I purposely put my memory at a disadvantage in relating to that post because I did not write what I actually thought at the time. I tried to more generally mention standard things that happens with age.

To put it clearly what I actually think: I think he suffers from neuronal degradation in his frontal lobes. That means he has some form of cognitive impairment. This would popularly fall into a category of problems that is labeled dementia. Note, I'm not saying alzheimers or anything specific. I'm saying I saw something to me that would indicate he has a problem with being abnormally influenced by the Interviewer. That's kind of as clear as I want to be and feel I can be.

As for the P example. You gave an indication of believing anything that one dislikes to be called is an indication of what they actually are. I think I quite clearly pointed out that fallacy in your thinking with my example. Perhaps using the P word struck the point down too hard, and you are unable to grasp it's content because of your anger. For that I'm sorry, I wasn't sure what other example I could use that would be guaranteed to achieve an emotional reaction.


As for the rest, we clearly aren't getting anywhere. Your response to criticism of any kind, even something simple like acknowledging you wrote a misleading post, is to defend your general credentials(In some area), calling me a fanboy and describe what I write as babble.

I guess we could continue this, but to save time, why not keep saying you are a poop! Which will be responded with a No, You are a poop!


Have a nice day.

 

[neineinei]

It isn't easy to beat the testers?!

Where am I? Isn't this still the forum about doing in cycling? Where I read about Armstrongs hundreds of passed doping tests and Rasmussen doping non stop for ten years without testing positive? In a sport where more testing is done than in any other, and still the big doping cases are built on anything but adverse analytical findings?

****preik.

 

[Velo1ticker]

Yeah, yeah, she needs to 're-charge' her batteries. I wonder what she is re-charging them with? The same stuff that Conconi and Ferrari were giving the Italians and Bjorn Daehlie and co back in the 80's and 90's?

Well, that is probably the right question to ask. This was related to the question, what else is new, relating to the repeated accusation by Russian dopers? I thought the point and Drage’s book was eaten by a python. It is amusing that a nation that haven’t fielded a clean skier for over 50 years is accusing those with only a few(unknown) dopers (Drage’s bloodprofiles) and even fewer that has been caught. Making this a ****ing contest is only helping the Russians (and others) to continue with their great athletic programs. It will not generate new effective tests or test regimes. I think we should take this topic more serious than claiming it is possible to beat the system, hence every athlete (or nation) they do not like are doped, and everyone claiming otherwise is a fanboy.
Didn’t know Conconi and Ferrari supplied Norwegians. Any references other than the PR job and lecture Conconi held in Norway in the run up to cycling worlds 1993 in Norway.

 

[python]

I think he suffers from neuronal degradation in his frontal lobes. That means he has some form of cognitive impairment. This would popularly fall into a category of problems that is labeled dementia.

let's get this straight.

a world renowned swedish anti-doping professor who never was suspected of prejudice towards norway and for whom there is not the slightest evidence of mental issues, has neuronal degradation in his frontal lobes. after he said what you dislike - about norwegians potentially doping !

are you a doctor ? can you cite any evidence about saltin's mental issues ? or was it simply the typical arrogance that tends to shoot the messenger because the message found the target.

As for the P example. You gave an indication of believing anything that one dislikes to be called is an indication of what they actually are. I think I quite clearly pointed out that fallacy in your thinking with my example

. you comparing me to a pedophile in response to calling out your consistent, one-sided, prejudices whenever an issue of norwegian doping pops up - is the best example of an angry babbler who has nothing else left.

thank you,
i WILL have a nice day since i am heading to a ski range. and if you have more questions, be sure i will address them when i come back.

but not before i have some hot tea

 

[ToreBear]

It isn't easy to beat the testers?!

Where am I? Isn't this still the forum about doing in cycling? Where I read about Armstrongs hundreds of passed doping tests and Rasmussen doping non stop for ten years without testing positive? In a sport where more testing is done than in any other, and still the big doping cases are built on anything but adverse analytical findings?

****preik.

This is too simple an argument because:
1. Armstrong was before before newer ad developments.

2. Rasmussen got banned, and did'nt get back into a top team again.

3. The amount of tests don't give any info, it's the amount of tests per athlete that would give an indication of quality of the antidoping work. Add to that one could easily inflate numbers by doing testing that one does not expect will yeld results.

4. Cycling and Fifa were the last to acede to Wada. That should give an indication that cycling might be one of the most dope friendly sports. Cycling people tend to think everyone were just as bad as them. This is yet to be proven, and is hence only a theory.

5. When I talk about testing I implicitly mean the whole package of AD work except prevention activity.

 

[ToreBear]

let's get this straight.

a world renowned swedish anti-doping professor who never was suspected of prejudice towards norway and for whom there is not the slightest evidence of mental issues, has neuronal degradation in his frontal lobes. after he said what you dislike - about norwegians potentially doping !

are you a doctor ? can you cite any evidence about saltin's mental issues ? or was it simply the typical arrogance that tends to shoot the messenger because the message found the target.


. you comparing me to a pedophile in response to calling out your consistent, one-sided, prejudices whenever an issue of norwegian doping pops up - is the best example of an angry babbler who has nothing else left.

thank you,
i WILL have a nice day since i am heading to a ski range. and if you have more questions, be sure i will address them when i come back.

but not before i have some hot tea

I'm not going to reveal the background for my knowledge on the issue. All I will say is that I'm knowledgeable in this area, but not an expert. If I were an expert it would be unethical for me to be so clear. Also I would not rely on so little evidence before positing my theory in an open forum.

I don't know if I am correct, but this is my belief after viewing the whole series of events and specifically an interview that was cut from the program. The cutout part is mentioned under heading 3.2.
http://www.skiaktiv.no/artikkel/3817/svts-dokumentar-blir-advokatmat.html

Could this be me attacking the messenger? Could be, I'm not above such unconscious influence. But I don't see questioning someones statements when they are thought to be expert statements as shooting the messenger. Questioning expert knowledge is an essential part of critical thinking.


But I certainly hope I'm wrong, and it is a result of some unconscious shoot the messenger reaction. Though I do question his judgment when he says 16,5 is hard to achieve naturally. I have a lab result showing me naturally at 16,5, while Wassbergs neighbor had 17.5.

That leads me to look to other possible reasons for what he is saying, and after careful elimination I arrived at my view. Though I hope there is another explanation that I haven't found.



The P example was brought up because you said I was a fanboy since I did'nt like being called a fanboy. You still don't seem to appreciate that problem in your thinking.

I think I addressed the other Issues you bring up previously, but they don't seem to sink in.

I don't have any more questions for you, since I don't expect any sensible reply from you.

All I expect is more defensiveness and accusatory retaliation.

Enjoy your skiing.

 

[romnom]

It is amusing that a nation that haven’t fielded a clean skier for over 50 years is accusing those with only a few(unknown) dopers (Drage’s bloodprofiles) and even fewer that has been caught. Making this a ****ing contest is only helping the Russians (and others) to continue with their great athletic programs. It will not generate new effective tests or test regimes. I think we should take this topic more serious than claiming it is possible to beat the system, hence every athlete (or nation) they do not like are doped, and everyone claiming otherwise is a fanboy.

Sorry to jump in, but this is something that always puzzles me. Do you see it as a good thing that the nation that has been at the top of the sport for decades both in number of participants and success in international competitions has no known dopers in it's history? It sort of makes it easy to claim that it is (or at least has been) very much possible to beat the system. Trying to point fingers and make claims about who did and what is completely pointless, but the no-positives history in anti-doping pretty much guarantees that there have been plenty of athletes who did beat the system. Not sure why we should care who they were, but to me trying to deny that the system has been very beatable isn't really helping if the goal is to catch dopers in the future.

 

[ToreBear]

Sorry to jump in, but this is something that always puzzles me. Do you see it as a good thing that the nation that has been at the top of the sport for decades both in number of participants and success in international competitions has no known dopers in it's history? It sort of makes it easy to claim that it is (or at least has been) very much possible to beat the system. Trying to point fingers and make claims about who did and what is completely pointless, but the no-positives history in anti-doping pretty much guarantees that there have been plenty of athletes who did beat the system. Not sure why we should care who they were, but to me trying to deny that the system has been very beatable isn't really helping if the goal is to catch dopers in the future.

Sorry to jump in, but you seem to be using the argument that no positives is evidence of positives.

Or more clearly, no proof or indication of doping must mean there was doping.

This does not compute.



I don't think anyone is denying the system hasn't been beatable. But assuming everyone doped because the system was beatable does not correspond to human behavior.

We humans are taught to follow rules, it takes a lot of pressure from the environment to break those rules. In cycling that was the teams. The teams fostered pro doping values. There are of course some who relish the chance to cheat if they think they can get away with it. But they are not examples of normal behavior.

 

[the sceptic]

I guess they dont teach people to follow the rules in backwater countries like Russia, Finland, Italy and so on. Or maybe the norwegians just have higher moral standards.

 

[ToreBear]

I guess they dont teach people to follow the rules in backwater countries like Russia, Finland, Italy and so on. Or maybe the norwegians just have higher moral standards.

Their environment as in federation and coaches influenced/guided the decision to dope. This would be consistent with joining a dirty trade team. It's difficult for the individual to refuse, especially since they are led to believe that everyone else does it too.

The environment had in essence become pro doping.

 

[figgelura]

Also sorry cutting in but now i cant be quiet. Torebear, you saying that you are not a fanboy reffering to NSF defenceletter is hilarious. Thats what a true fanboy would do. This letter is to me more proof of norwegian doping as much as anything else. Here they state we dont dope with threats and lies instead of showing us the profiles of there bloodsamples they took from the nineties. Oh i forgot, the country that spends so much Money on skiing making them the best on Earth beating known dopers dont, according to NSF, take bloodsamples during the race season. Strange that Inge Bråten states in this article from 2008 (http://www.langd.se/braaten-alla-kunde-kolla-oss.4503606-86106.html) says his skiers could not dope because we meassured there bloodvalues all the time making profiles. Inge bråten was head coach from 90-94 and he says dr Rökke saved all that information and he would have gladely shared that information with anybody asking. Sorry to say but both Bråten and Dr Rökke died sudden Deaths and know the information vanished.

I Think its funny when NSF main defence is saying that we Always had normal low bloodvalues and on the other hand if they had high numbers it is the HemoCues fault. Let me stick my neck out there. Hemocues is showing good numbers. Ive read atleast 70 full scale studies on the subject from all over the World. When you compare bloodvalues from HemoCue with automatic blood cell counter everybody does it wrong. Normaly you compare aples with aples but not in this case. Using HemoCues you take capillary blood from a fingertip and get a number and if you take capillary blood to a cell counter you see the high difference NSF saying rightly to be 10%. But this is not how the tests were conducted. In field they meassured in fingertips with HemoCue and in lab they meassured venous blood. Comparing this there is a difference under +- 2%. Everybody saying that HemoCues shows 10% wrong and alwayas on the plus side is trying to fool you. They obviously calibrated HemoCues to this standard comparing capillary blood with venous blood. Dont you Think the Swedish Company making HemoCue would have calibrated the machine down 10% if it Always showed the wrong numbers on one side, the plus side, or do you Think they were complete retards.

The bottomline is this. If you read this thread from start you will see many circumstantial evidence, no proof at all, but enough to suspect both swedes and norwegians being doped. So, if you are suspected of a crime and you are innocent what do you do. Obviously you try to show every litle thing that can proove them wrong. If you are guilty what to do then. Scream and threat the acusation quiet is a well known tactic. Know, everybody knows what the norwegians did in this case. Its no proof but until they show us the numbers they are guilty in my book.

 

[Discgear]

Their environment as in federation and coaches influenced/guided the decision to dope. This would be consistent with joining a dirty trade team. It's difficult for the individual to refuse, especially since they are led to believe that everyone else does it too.

The environment had in essence become pro doping.

ToreBear, your attack on the mental status of Saltin is tragic and unworthy but not unexpected, since we have seen how the people in Norwegian XC-skiing circles has reacted on any questions that has been raised, about doping. All the big promises from the Norwegian Ski Federation about openness and transparency concerning Norwegian blood values was nothing but warm air. Nothing came out, just some obscure news about a fire in the hospital where the values were stored.

But I do agree with you ToreBear in the quote above. However, for us who are convinced that some Norwegian endurance athletes used EPO throughout the 90s, your argument kind of works the other way around. Today, even most Norwegians seems to agree that Koss was indeed juiced in Lillehammer.

Since Koss, Ulvang and Dählie and some more heroes from the 90s, all do have prominent positions in federations and in coaching:
If believing the 90s were dirty even in Norway, your quoted argument is actually devastating, concerning if contemporary Norwegian skiers have guts to refuse dirty methods.

 

[ToreBear]

Also sorry cutting in but now i cant be quiet. Torebear, you saying that you are not a fanboy reffering to NSF defenceletter is hilarious. Thats what a true fanboy would do. This letter is to me more proof of norwegian doping as much as anything else. Here they state we dont dope with threats and lies instead of showing us the profiles of there bloodsamples they took from the nineties. Oh i forgot, the country that spends so much Money on skiing making them the best on Earth beating known dopers dont, according to NSF, take bloodsamples during the race season. Strange that Inge Bråten states in this article from 2008 (http://www.langd.se/braaten-alla-kunde-kolla-oss.4503606-86106.html) says his skiers could not dope because we meassured there bloodvalues all the time making profiles. Inge bråten was head coach from 90-94 and he says dr Rökke saved all that information and he would have gladely shared that information with anybody asking. Sorry to say but both Bråten and Dr Rökke died sudden Deaths and know the information vanished.

I Think its funny when NSF main defence is saying that we Always had normal low bloodvalues and on the other hand if they had high numbers it is the HemoCues fault. Let me stick my neck out there. Hemocues is showing good numbers. Ive read atleast 70 full scale studies on the subject from all over the World. When you compare bloodvalues from HemoCue with automatic blood cell counter everybody does it wrong. Normaly you compare aples with aples but not in this case. Using HemoCues you take capillary blood from a fingertip and get a number and if you take capillary blood to a cell counter you see the high difference NSF saying rightly to be 10%. But this is not how the tests were conducted. In field they meassured in fingertips with HemoCue and in lab they meassured venous blood. Comparing this there is a difference under +- 2%. Everybody saying that HemoCues shows 10% wrong and alwayas on the plus side is trying to fool you. They obviously calibrated HemoCues to this standard comparing capillary blood with venous blood. Dont you Think the Swedish Company making HemoCue would have calibrated the machine down 10% if it Always showed the wrong numbers on one side, the plus side, or do you Think they were complete retards.

The bottomline is this. If you read this thread from start you will see many circumstantial evidence, no proof at all, but enough to suspect both swedes and norwegians being doped. So, if you are suspected of a crime and you are innocent what do you do. Obviously you try to show every litle thing that can proove them wrong. If you are guilty what to do then. Scream and threat the acusation quiet is a well known tactic. Know, everybody knows what the norwegians did in this case. Its no proof but until they show us the numbers they are guilty in my book.

No, no cut in all you like. Ok so I'm a fanboy for reffering to the NSF defenseletter. And the measure of a true fanboy is how he uses google and clicks on the first available result. Great.

So they don't like being called cheats, and react angrily to it, yes that must be a sign they are doping since only dopers don't like to be accused of doping obviously, and clean people love how their integrity is being questioned.

I couldn't see any lies in there, sorry. I think they did show some profiles, they just didn't have a good system to it. Also some were kept in different places, and some were kept by FIS that they couldn't get etc. Your own article points out the problem. Your article explains this.

So they both died sudden deatsh and the information is vanished. That sounds like a good thriller.

There is a long discussion deeper in this thread. I read the discussion and came to the conclusion that Hemocue was not accurate enough. If you think something else, fine. I'm not gonna argue with you about that. For me that has already been settled.

I have read this thread from start to finish. I have seen plenty of theories and accusations. Theories that might be deemed sensible by those who agree with it's conclusion. There is no circumstantial evidence in there. The only interesting bit I have found I'm not saying, cause then we will have 10 pages of conspiracy theories over something already discussed ad naseum.

So innocent people show openess, right, no not right, the accusers have to prove their guilt, that's the principle in most modern countries. People don't have to prove they are innocent. Someone has to prove they are guilty

NSF showed openess, what did they get? Accusations that it was'nt enough, theories of a conspiracy, and more people reading headlines thinking there must be something to it because it's a headline in a paper. As in bad PR. But I think they will still show openess, as in let experts dig around. But not your average conspiracy nut, because they can make a misspelling into proof of doping.

Now you seem to have an idea that these profiles are just sitting in a computer somewhere, and it's just a file. You should perhaps be aware that these are papers placed in different places that nobody really had any interest in.

I'm sorry for not being more diplomatic, it takes too long to type diplomatically.

 

[ToreBear]

ToreBear, your attack on the mental status of Saltin is tragic and unworthy but not unexpected, since we have seen how the people in Norwegian XC-skiing circles has reacted on any questions that has been raised, about doping. All the big promises from the Norwegian Ski Federation about openness and transparency concerning Norwegian blood values was nothing but warm air. Nothing came out, just some obscure news about a fire in the hospital where the values were stored.

But I do agree with you ToreBear in the quote above. However, for us who are convinced that some Norwegian endurance athletes used EPO throughout the 90s, your argument kind of works the other way around. Today, even most Norwegians seems to agree that Koss was indeed juiced in Lillehammer.

Since Koss, Ulvang and Dählie and some more heroes from the 90s, all do have prominent positions in federations and in coaching:
If believing the 90s were dirty even in Norway, your quoted argument is actually devastating, concerning if contemporary Norwegian skiers have guts to refuse dirty methods.

Yes I'm representative of all Norwegians, obviously. We are totally alike and think alike. Right...

I think they were quite open and transparent in their presentation. Perhaps it' didn't suffice because they found nothing? What if they show more of the same and find nothing? Will you believe them then or will you think they are hiding something? Obviously you wont believe them because it goes against what you think is true. Hence why continue releasing stuff?

I haven't followed fire, stolen lap tops and what not. I'm sure you think it's a big conspiracy to hide doping, spiced in with some murders and probably NSA wiretaps.

I have a problem seeing any argument that would convince those who are convinced that Norwegian endurance athletes used EPO in the nineties, that they in fact didn't. Since anything they apparently say, do, do not say or do not do is proof of doping.

I have not heard anything indicating most Norwegians believed Koss doped. I don't think anyone has conducted any polling. Perhaps you take the norwegians you have communicated with as most Norwegians? Well they are not unless you have comunicated with 51% of the population.

Ok my argument is devastating, again back at the either or it's all proof of doping, great.

As to those prominent positions in the federatios and coaching, I see you don't let facts affect your argument, or do any research. Its just standard imported from how it is in cycling.

Lets, see Koss, I think he coached the Norwegian skating team for a year or something a few years back, but Afaik he lives in Canada, and I'm not sure many people care. So no he is not high up in anything as far as I know. Dæhlie, nope, no coaching, not employed in the system or anything like that. The only one of the names you mentioned is Ulvang who according to Saltin was very helpfull in getting the antidoping work underway. Ok, he now is the head of the xc comitee. Yes I'm sure that means he owns fis and all it's representatives will do his bidding, and that he uses that imense power to protect his doping and that of his teamates from ever being exposed.

Ok. I think we have that covered. Or if we havent covered it, I'm sure it's been covered previously in this thread.

 

[romnom]

Sorry to jump in, but you seem to be using the argument that no positives is evidence of positives.

Or more clearly, no proof or indication of doping must mean there was doping.

This does not compute.



I don't think anyone is denying the system hasn't been beatable. But assuming everyone doped because the system was beatable does not correspond to human behavior.

We humans are taught to follow rules, it takes a lot of pressure from the environment to break those rules. In cycling that was the teams. The teams fostered pro doping values. There are of course some who relish the chance to cheat if they think they can get away with it. But they are not examples of normal behavior.

I'm fairly certain that I'm not saying any of the stuff you seem to think I'm saying. I am saying it doesn't compute and that's about it. You have a nation with a history of no positives. This can be explained in a few different ways. Some to me seem more likely that others given what we know about the sport in question and sports in general. If you read the post I was responding to, you probably noticed it was pointed out as a fact while bashing the dirty Russians and their silly claims. I really don't see how it is a positive fact in the context or in any other context to be honest. Not proof of anything. I don't think everyone dopes because nobody is caught and no positives is definitely not evidence of positives. I think it's a curious fact and am genuinely interested if people see it just as a good thing to be proud of.

 

[the sceptic]

The idea that the clean norwegians could beat skiers from russia, italy and finland, all juiced to the max on EPO with no test in sight, that is some serious fairy tale land. Its like saying you can take a clean rider and have him ride up hautacam faster than Riis.

 

[figgelura]

No, no cut in all you like. Ok so I'm a fanboy for reffering to the NSF defenseletter. And the measure of a true fanboy is how he uses google and clicks on the first available result. Great.

So they don't like being called cheats, and react angrily to it, yes that must be a sign they are doping since only dopers don't like to be accused of doping obviously, and clean people love how their integrity is being questioned.

I couldn't see any lies in there, sorry. I think they did show some profiles, they just didn't have a good system to it. Also some were kept in different places, and some were kept by FIS that they couldn't get etc. Your own article points out the problem. Your article explains this.

So they both died sudden deatsh and the information is vanished. That sounds like a good thriller.

There is a long discussion deeper in this thread. I read the discussion and came to the conclusion that Hemocue was not accurate enough. If you think something else, fine. I'm not gonna argue with you about that. For me that has already been settled.

I have read this thread from start to finish. I have seen plenty of theories and accusations. Theories that might be deemed sensible by those who agree with it's conclusion. There is no circumstantial evidence in there. The only interesting bit I have found I'm not saying, cause then we will have 10 pages of conspiracy theories over something already discussed ad naseum.

So innocent people show openess, right, no not right, the accusers have to prove their guilt, that's the principle in most modern countries. People don't have to prove they are innocent. Someone has to prove they are guilty

NSF showed openess, what did they get? Accusations that it was'nt enough, theories of a conspiracy, and more people reading headlines thinking there must be something to it because it's a headline in a paper. As in bad PR. But I think they will still show openess, as in let experts dig around. But not your average conspiracy nut, because they can make a misspelling into proof of doping.

Now you seem to have an idea that these profiles are just sitting in a computer somewhere, and it's just a file. You should perhaps be aware that these are papers placed in different places that nobody really had any interest in.

I'm sorry for not being more diplomatic, it takes too long to type diplomatically.

You are not sorry at all. Why do every norwegian lay out how the legal system works in a court of law. I would say its more like an election in politics where the fans and Viewers are the people voting. We pay for Everything via tv-license and sponsors and if its not credible the sport will fade away. This is why its important for a nation like Norway to defend its honur whith openess and trying to show the truth instead of shouting about legal loopholes.

Than i am not sure of if you are acusing me of beeing lazy when using google and gather information. If so you are out on Deep water.

 

[Discgear]

Yes I'm representative of all Norwegians, obviously. We are totally alike and think alike. Right...

I was clearly talking about Norwegian xc-skiing circles and NSF and you are dishonestly ridiculing it as directed to all Norwegians.

I haven't followed fire, stolen lap tops and what not. I'm sure you think it's a big conspiracy to hide doping, spiced in with some murders and probably NSA wiretaps.

What on earth are you talking about? However NeiNeiNeis post #1391 talks about the missing data.

I have not heard anything indicating most Norwegians believed Koss doped. I don't think anyone has conducted any polling. Perhaps you take the norwegians you have communicated with as most Norwegians? Well they are not unless you have comunicated with 51% of the population.

No I can’t refer to any polls, but I’ ve been talking to many Norwegian friends and been reading a lot in Norwegian ski forums. However a recent poll in Dagbladet concluded that four out of five norwegians believe that doping is a part of norwegian xc skiing. http://www.svt.se/sport/vintersport/norrman-tror-pa-norsk-skiddopning

 

[neineinei]

Yes I'm representative of all Norwegians, obviously. We are totally alike and think alike. Right...

I think they were quite open and transparent in their presentation. Perhaps it' didn't suffice because they found nothing? What if they show more of the same and find nothing? Will you believe them then or will you think they are hiding something? Obviously you wont believe them because it goes against what you think is true. Hence why continue releasing stuff?

I haven't followed fire, stolen lap tops and what not. I'm sure you think it's a big conspiracy to hide doping, spiced in with some murders and probably NSA wiretaps.

I have a problem seeing any argument that would convince those who are convinced that Norwegian endurance athletes used EPO in the nineties, that they in fact didn't. Since anything they apparently say, do, do not say or do not do is proof of doping.

I have not heard anything indicating most Norwegians believed Koss doped. I don't think anyone has conducted any polling. Perhaps you take the norwegians you have communicated with as most Norwegians? Well they are not unless you have comunicated with 51% of the population.

Ok my argument is devastating, again back at the either or it's all proof of doping, great.

As to those prominent positions in the federatios and coaching, I see you don't let facts affect your argument, or do any research. Its just standard imported from how it is in cycling.

Lets, see Koss, I think he coached the Norwegian skating team for a year or something a few years back, but Afaik he lives in Canada, and I'm not sure many people care. So no he is not high up in anything as far as I know. Dæhlie, nope, no coaching, not employed in the system or anything like that. The only one of the names you mentioned is Ulvang who according to Saltin was very helpfull in getting the antidoping work underway. Ok, he now is the head of the xc comitee. Yes I'm sure that means he owns fis and all it's representatives will do his bidding, and that he uses that imense power to protect his doping and that of his teamates from ever being exposed.

Ok. I think we have that covered. Or if we havent covered it, I'm sure it's been covered previously in this thread.

In March they said (after comparing blood values from the off season from Norwegian skiers to blood values from foreigners collected at races. Saltin: ''What cross country skier would be blood doping in July?") they could get more data, but that they would have to get the approval to do so from the skiers. In October they said they would do that, because publishing blood values only leads to more speculations.

http://www.vg.no/sport/ski/langrenn/artikkel.php?artid=10127144

 

[python]

dear torebear, i genuinely feel for you...

we had our good discussions about xc racing in the other thread and some disagreements lately as well. when i very reluctantly decided to call your summary posting record a fanboyism (as noted several times - mainly due to the consistency of your one-sided argument), you compared me to pedofiles...

now we have several more reasoned posters calling you a fanboy...

a sincere question - are they, like you seemed to have branded me, some sort of pedofiles or rapists whatever... because they see through your argument the way i did ?

 

[ToreBear]

I was clearly talking about Norwegian xc-skiing circles and NSF and you are dishonestly ridiculing it as directed to all Norwegians.



What on earth are you talking about? However NeiNeiNeis post #1391 talks about the missing data.




No I can’t refer to any polls, but I’ ve been talking to many Norwegian friends and been reading a lot in Norwegian ski forums. However a recent poll in Dagbladet concluded that four out of five norwegians believe that doping is a part of norwegian xc skiing. http://www.svt.se/sport/vintersport/norrman-tror-pa-norsk-skiddopning

Here, it's all in the headline.
http://www.dagbladet.no/2014/01/30/sport/ski/langrenn/31540370/

 

[ToreBear]

dear torebear, i genuinely feel for you...

we had our good discussions about xc racing in the other thread and some disagreements lately as well. when i very reluctantly decided to call your summary posting record a fanboyism (as noted several times - mainly due to the consistency of your one-sided argument), you compared me to pedofiles...

now we have several more reasoned posters calling you a fanboy...

a sincere question - are they, like you seemed to have branded me, some sort of pedofiles or rapists whatever... because they see through your argument the way i did ?

You still don't seem to get the argument do you? Well that's your problem.

 

[python]

You still don't seem to get the argument do you? Well that's your problem.

relax my friend, of course i know my problem - according to you, i am, if not a pedofile, LIKE a pedofile, because i called you a fanboy. didn't you make the allusion, my friend ? do you deny what you wrote in black and white ?

so, i am asking who are these bad posters who saw you the way i did - a blatant, unrepentant, fanboy. who are they ? rapists ? thieves ? anti-norwegian mafia ?

 

[neineinei]

VG published the results from a poll yesterday.

# Do you believe that some of the Norwegian athletes who are going to Sochi are using, or have been using, doping? 32,3 % answered yes, 21,7 % I don't know, 46 % no.

NSF president Erik Røste voiced his disbelife at the numbers, claiming other polls had given very different numbers. The other day NTB had a poll with a slightly different question, and there more than 50 % (56,9) had said they were certain the Norwegians going to Sochi are clean.

http://www.vg.no/sport/ol-2014/artikkel.php?artid=10121584

 

[skjoldur]

Fascinating!

I started from the beginning and trying to keep up. A couple of modest thoughts, if you'll indulge me. I may not know what I'm talking about...just thoughts.

• Considering that all these lab values, the standards set, interpretation and analysis, depends on historical data and testing when blood-doping/performance enhancement was happening with little notice and inconsistent standards, it seems impossible to get an accurate picture and establish reliable standards to work with.
I mean, it would really take empirical hard data that came with complete truth from the athletes. It might be realized that the standards for "clean" athletes are based on "dirty" performance levels and data.

• I think a conversation about this isn't complete without including US women. The men's side of things don't do much internationally. But the women! Not only remarkable performance, strangely erratic and inconsistent, but the background is unbelievable. Literally, unbelievable.
In the context of the international field, the US's Randall is performing right smack in the middle of the pack that may/may not be getting away with a little something. And better, too. She's in the group of women this forum is looking at. In FIS ranking lists, she's right in there above and below Norwegians and Finns.
US News: "The *****y Alaskan with pink-tinged blond hair is the fastest cross-country skier in the world – and the most decorated U.S. female cross-country skier in history."

She wins one and is 15th in the next. Then wins, then 20th. Then podium again. Really, does one's performance vary that much, at the same venue, or in the same month? Or is it about who else is entered that day?

She had lab values that exceeded limits. Blood clots that required surgery, twice. Explanations Randall herself offered ran the gamut or every possible reason and medical condition and were even contradictory. First dehydration, then altitude adjustment because she'd been flying extensively just before, then altitude adjustment because her home is at sea level. Then birth control. Then she claimed diagnoses of the two genetic conditions that cause naturally high Hgb levels - Factor V Leiden and May-Thurner syndrome. She has BOTH. But never a medical exemption for any of this. In spite of rigorous annual physicals and routine monitoring by US Team docs.

News quotes -
2006: "I knew that with all the running around we did getting here and into the village earlier this week, that not getting fluid was a problem for me," Randall said.
2006: Kikkan Randall of the United States said her high reading was a simple matter of adjusting to altitude after living at sea level.
2006: "I was unconcerned. I knew I was clean," Randall said. "I knew I was dehydrated. Her coach, Trond Nystad, agreed. "I think it was a bigger thing in the media than it was for us," he said. "The funny thing is that the negative attention came from the U.S. where I think journalists are uneducated on the issue. In Europe they know this isn't a big deal.
2009: Randall attributed it to dehydration from travel.
APU Nordic Ski Center director: Virtually all of the athletes who were suspended prior to the Olympics were at altitude for the final World Cup races just prior to the Olympics.
http://jenex.com/news/26-news

It bears mentioning that her training regime included a custom altitude chamber built in her parents' home, and she won races at high altitude (1800m).
Both Randall and teammate Holly Brooks are 31. Older and performing at a higher level than in their teens and 20s. In a cardio sport.
Brooks' story is a happily-ever-after fairy tale. She had a short unremarkable competition career early on, quit, went to college, got married, became a high school coach and then got a coaching job with the APU Nordic Ski Center. The coach will be a two-time Olympian after Sochi.

Maybe they're just blossoming late? It might be that the US women are truly exceptionally talented and speculation is unfair. Perhaps they deserve huge credit for simple hard work and drive.
Any thoughts here?

yesterday, i watched randall , a sprint specialist, stamp her dominance at a fis world cup sprint race in québec…nothing unexpected really. but after several relatively poor seasons, this year she also showed super form in longer races competing against the world's best.

since i normally don’t follow american xc skiers due to their lack of results, i decided to do some digging on the randall’s performance jump...

and i came across this pure gold statement by her coach at the time after she was sidelined at the turin olympics for high haemoglobin

to clarify, at the turin olympics just like today, fis haemoglobin limit for ladies was 16. randall was tested above it. one needs to know her baseline before making any rush judgments. thankfully, another article offered an answer. when randall was hospitalized with a blood clot, her haemoglobin was at a rather benign 13.2. it would take an unlikely 21% jump to cross the limit due to plain dehydration (an explanation at the time). it must be added here, that unlike the uci, fis had long ago decided to focus on monitoring a more stable haemoglobin rather than haematocrit susceptible to x3 variability due to dehydration.

to be fair to kikkan, i must state that i was unable to find another officially recorded hemoglobin jump. many with the similar temporary problem were later banned for blood doping. she never was. yet, i did find vague self references to her being susceptible to high values particularly at altitude. had she been truly genetically susceptible, she’d have the special dispensation. apparently, she did not have one at the time of failing the test and after being an experienced professional for years...

make your own conclusions…but i have just found my seed of doubt. at least about her past.