Doping in XC skiing

[AmRacer]

Just watching a replay of the women's 50km - what a ridiculous first lap. All I could think of was Mühlegg *** ing off in the 30km in 2002 lol

It has been like this for many years.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

And in the Scandinavian Tour a few years ago they were as blatant as having a point-to-point race in heavy snow where they put machines out to clear the tracks right in front of their own skiers.

A lot of good points, but this is very wrong. The point-to-point race during the Scandinavian Tour in was not raced in heavy snow and Bolshunov won that race solo (search for ‘Bolshunov Meråker’ on YouTube for the summary of that race). There were some «Machines» involved in this race as they had camera scooters being just in front of the leaders and technically would give some draft. I don’t know if that happened in the women’s class as well, but in the FIS summary video on YouTube you can see that Bolshunov is going very close to the scooter after he dropped the last Norwegians, so the machines was not there to benefit the home skiers..

I think the snowfall race you think about is the chasing start in Trondheim. It was on the normal laps and Bolshunov lost a clear lead because he had klister and the Norwegian did not. I think he lost like more than 2 minutes and it was a complete wax fiasco from the Russians. However I don’t remember seeing any machinery out in the course that day, and it also doesn’t make any practical sense at all to “clear the tracks” with machinery ahead of the skiers as the snow need time to settle after being groomed. If you send out the grooming machines a minute ahead of the skiers during snowfall it should only lead to the course collapsing and being much more soft and worse conditions than if you have a couple of centimeters fresh snow on top of solid tracks.

So I think this point about Norway sending out machinery to clean the tracks for the home athletes are somewhat of a fake memory. I just wanted to point that out, as there are enough real things (like asthma misuse, pushing rules with ski testing/waxing etc, course design in Trondheim and so on) to be angry with.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

A lot of good points, but this is very wrong. The point-to-point race during the Scandinavian Tour in was not raced in heavy snow and Bolshunov won that race solo (search for ‘Bolshunov Meråker’ on YouTube for the summary of that race). There were some «Machines» involved in this race as they had camera scooters being just in front of the leaders and technically would give some draft. I don’t know if that happened in the women’s class as well, but in the FIS summary video on YouTube you can see that Bolshunov is going very close to the scooter after he dropped the last Norwegians, so the machines was not there to benefit the home skiers..

I think the snowfall race you think about is the chasing start in Trondheim. It was on the normal laps and Bolshunov lost a clear lead because he had klister and the Norwegian did not. I think he lost like more than 2 minutes and it was a complete wax fiasco from the Russians. However I don’t remember seeing any machinery out in the course that day, and it also doesn’t make any practical sense at all to “clear the tracks” with machinery ahead of the skiers as the snow need time to settle after being groomed. If you send out the grooming machines a minute ahead of the skiers during snowfall it should only lead to the course collapsing and being much more soft and worse conditions than if you have a couple of centimeters fresh snow on top of solid tracks.

So I think this point about Norway sending out machinery to clean the tracks for the home athletes are somewhat of a fake memory. I just wanted to point that out, as there are enough real things (like asthma misuse, pushing rules with ski testing/waxing etc, course design in Trondheim and so on) to be angry with.

You are right in that I was conflating the pursuit in Trondheim (in classic) with the Meråker race (which didn't end up as a point to point after the weather intervened, and was in skate) and you are right to pull that up as I had the wrong race in mind (and as you acknowledge, there was a race that fit the criteria I described but was misremembering which it was), but while I can't find more than a very short summary from FIS which understandably excises anything that might be commentable upon, a brief look at the posting on the regular Nordic thread from that day shows the following:

Anybody else watching the comedy show in Granåsen?

Yeah, cleaning the course for their own skiers, what a joke! There are people on track everywhere except in front of Bolshunov...

That's some of the dirtiest hometown cooking that I've seen in a long time. If the weather was better they'd probably get helicopter support like F. Moser in that infamous TT...

And they actually accused the snowmobiles of giving Bolshunov the draft in the mass start a few days ago. Bolshunov and the rest of the Russians have awful skis, it would have been difficult for him regardless, but ridiculous home cooking. Also in the sprint, when Valnes admitted he let Golberg go ahead at the finish to ensure he got more seconds. Look at the top 10, 8 Norwegians. If climate change doesn’t kill this sport, Norwegian hegemony most certainly will.

A shame that Bolshunov will lose the tour like this and will now have pressure the rest of the way for the overall World Cup.

Well nothing new here. Norwegians in XC skiing are the worst when it comes to unsportsmanship behavior. So as disgusting as it was, nothing to be surprised. That is just what they are like.
Anyway, did not matter in the end. Russians totally blew it today with their skies.

It is very true that Russia completely botched the ski preparation that day and it likely was a moot point, but the Norwegians were visibly and openly cleaning the tracks in front of their own skiers and regardless of the efficacy (or not) of this as an advantage, it was clear enough for multiple people to comment on.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

but the Norwegians were visibly and openly cleaning the tracks in front of their own skiers and regardless of the efficacy (or not) of this as an advantage, it was clear enough for multiple people to comment on.

Ah yes, that would be the course patrol (the quote from DenisMenchov) then, which usually is local juniors. That could definitively have happened in a way that would look (/would be) very biased towards the Norwegians. It was first and foremost your claim of using "machines" ("they put machines out to clear the tracks right in front of their own skiers.") that triggered me, because it's quite obvious that never happened.

 

[DenisMenchov]

Thank you for a rich and insightful post. I never knew many of these details. But it sounds a lot like the reason I suggested: All the XC events measure the same thing (and most monuments and GT do the same in cycling). We just have an illusion of versatility?

I'm not suggesting that he is not a good/great athlete, not at all.

I also listen to the real science in sport podcast where one XC expert from Norway said that the skiis can decide up to 5% of the finishing time?! Not sure if I understood him correctly, because if the difference between skiis are so big and norway is so much better/having more resources for/willing to win at all cost, then the race itself is kinda mooted apart from the Norwegians with the same skiis (?)

If you watched 50km for Men on Saturday you could see the difference the skiis make. On one side you have Iversen from Norway and then on the other you have Korostelev, who was an independent athlete. In the start list it doesn't look like Korostelev is at a disadvantage here, You can think, wow, he has the same chance as everyone else. But if you look deeper Iversen has a full Norwegian support of wax technicians with who knows how many tests performed and Korostelev has, well, maybe one or two guys. And then you see the Norwegians just inching further and further away on every downhill section and you see Korostelev double polling like crazy to close that gap and eventually it breaks him, he gets dropped from the group and is now sliding even further away. In the end results it looks like Iversen destroyed Korostelev, but in reality you had a guy riding a 2010 road bike and his major rivals riding 2026 state of art bike.

 

[Pozzovivo]

If you watched 50km for Men on Saturday you could see the difference the skiis make. On one side you have Iversen from Norway and then on the other you have Korostelev, who was an independent athlete. In the start list it doesn't look like Korostelev is at a disadvantage here, You can think, wow, he has the same chance as everyone else. But if you look deeper Iversen has a full Norwegian support of wax technicians with who knows how many tests performed and Korostelev has, well, maybe one or two guys. And then you see the Norwegians just inching further and further away on every downhill section and you see Korostelev double polling like crazy to close that gap and eventually it breaks him, he gets dropped from the group and is now sliding even further away. In the end results it looks like Iversen destroyed Korostelev, but in reality you had a guy riding a 2010 road bike and his major rivals riding 2026 state of art bike.

Crazy if correct. Why doesn't the governing body make the playing field fairer? It's in the interest of everyone and even Norway (if one looks at the long-term popularity of their national sport, which they will be the best at anyway). Seems like a big gain just lying there on the table.

Maybe have a pool among the athletes to fund the people who prepare skis for everyone - I'm sure there are a lot better ways to do it.

 

[Brullnux]

French biathlon reeking of Sky 2012 right now.

"We're dominating most of the season because everybody else is preparing for the Olympics"

"Actually it's better to keep racing at 95% than to give 100% and have a break. It'll be different at the Olympics"

"Oh, we won everything at the Olympics and skied everybody else into dust because everybody else just messed up their preparation for the Olympics"...

The strength in depth is absurd.

Jeanmonnot and Perrot have dominated the season and were flying in the first few races at Antholz and then dropped back for slightly disappointing individual medal hauls.

Simon was given a nice light suspension, came into the world cup skiing at IBU Cup pace and then within two weeks was winning races and shushing haters.

Michelon has been the fifth best french biathlete, comes out with a gold and silver skiing like Denise Hermann.

The men were less ridiculous because they broadly lived up to form – QFM is a big race guy who is fast with erratic shooting, but when he shoots well he wins. Jacquelin is an idiot.

 

[DenisMenchov]

Crazy if correct. Why doesn't the governing body make the playing field fairer? It's in the interest of everyone and even Norway (if one looks at the long-term popularity of their national sport, which they will be the best at anyway). Seems like a big gain just lying there on the table.

Maybe have a pool among the athletes to fund the people who prepare skis for everyone - I'm sure there are a lot better ways to do it.

Are you sure about that? In Bejing 20222 the conditions were very specific and you can see the results.

 

[Pozzovivo]

Are you sure about that? In Bejing 20222 the conditions were very specific and you can see the results.

I'm pretty sure Norway would be the best country overall even if the skis were equal. Of course, there will be events where they are not the best, but generally the best, no? It's the only country that really cares.

This is a niche sport among a very niche part of the sports season.

Here is the overall medal table from that competition you are referring to....

Rank	Nation	Gold	Silver	Bronze	Total
1	Norway	5	1	2	8
2	ROC	4	4	3	11
3	Finland	1	2	3	6
4	Sweden	1	2	1	4
5	Germany	1	1	0	2
6	United States	0	1	1	2
7	Italy	0	1	0	1
8	Austria	0	0	1	1
France	0	0	1	1
Totals (9 entries)	12	12	12	36

 

[Pozzovivo]

I'll take the liberty to add, Mr. Menchov, that the Russians were hardly a credible bunch of athletes at that time. Did RUSADA even operate? Norwegians and Russians cheating to beat each other is not very surprising. One may say that, at least the skis can be an even playing field.

Otherwise, it's basically motorsport, and that is utterly uninteresting.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Crazy if correct. Why doesn't the governing body make the playing field fairer? It's in the interest of everyone and even Norway (if one looks at the long-term popularity of their national sport, which they will be the best at anyway). Seems like a big gain just lying there on the table.

Maybe have a pool among the athletes to fund the people who prepare skis for everyone - I'm sure there are a lot better ways to do it.

A few times the idea of neutral waxing has been put forward, or at least something akin to F1 where there is a small range of preparations available to allow for tactical selection (akin to the different tyre compounds offered), but the problem is that the largest teams tend to veto it. The Norwegians of course will always look to veto it because they're the team that has the biggest advantage, but they're often backed by at least the Finns (who have a long history of being dyed-in-the-wool traditionalists and feel that experience in reading conditions and preparing accordingly is a valid and important skill in the sport - not an unreasonable take, and a large part of their successes at the 2022 Olympics as well. It's also worth noting that Finns tend to be bigger adherents than most to Classic technique where the ski prep can have a greater effect overall, or at least that effect be more immediately visible, than in skate) and oftentimes at least one other significant team. I don't know if they're afraid that some of those big talents in low budget teams might give them a bit of a scare (for example, Andrew Musgrave has been racing the Norwegian domestic scene for a long time and has won a bunch of races including a Norwegian Championships title there), and it has been notable especially on the women's side that when we look at something like Alpe Cermis, which just becomes a pure sufferfest and makes it more of a pure physiological test, that we have seen a few more unexpected success stories - Jules Lapierre, Delphine Claudel, Friedrich Moch, Sophia Laukli, Elizabeth Stephen, Patricija Eiduka, Hugo Lapalus, Irineu Esteve Altamiras, Robin Duvillard and Roland Clara all being athletes who would routinely score their best results of their seasons, even their careers, in that one stage. A couple of those - Eiduka and Esteve Altamiras in particular - are frequently up in or around the top 10 on that stage suggesting elite physiology for hard threshold racing, but are essentially one-man or one-woman teams pooled together into the Åkerdæhlie training group and unable to compete in a fair fight on a regular World Cup event.

However, it is worth noting that the Alpe is specific to one particular type of skill and does favour a particular type of athlete so we should be wary of reading too much into it - after all, somebody like Sophia Laukli is in the same team as Jessie Diggins, she just isn't able to replicate her Alpe Cermis performance levels around the rest of the calendar for the reason that she has a more limited skillset; she is marginalised by the World Cup not because her team can't provide the wax budget but because her skillset is limited to one particular type of racing: very hard distance races in skate style.

You're right that it has a detrimental effect in the long term, you can only look at the number of high profile defections to biathlon, especially on the women's side (ironic as Norway's dominance is significantly less on that side of the sport now with Bjørgen and Johaug gone) and the marginalisation of teams like Italy, Germany, Czech Republic and Austria, who nowadays barely scrape together a relay team, let alone a competitive one. Biathlon will frequently hold relays with 20+ different countries, while XC holds relays with 12 teams, of whom 2 are Norway, 2 are Sweden, sometimes 2 are Finland, and, when they were racing, 2 are Russia.

 

[Pozzovivo]

You're right that it has a detrimental effect in the long term, you can only look at the number of high profile defections to biathlon, especially on the women's side (ironic as Norway's dominance is significantly less on that side of the sport now with Bjørgen and Johaug gone) and the marginalisation of teams like Italy, Germany, Czech Republic and Austria, who nowadays barely scrape together a relay team, let alone a competitive one. Biathlon will frequently hold relays with 20+ different countries, while XC holds relays with 12 teams, of whom 2 are Norway, 2 are Sweden, sometimes 2 are Finland, and, when they were racing, 2 are Russia.

Great post, thank you for taking the time to explain. Why are skis not as important going up the big climb - that was unclear to me? Is it just easier to make good skis for that and so the playing field is pretty even, although the physical demands are peculiar for that event?

That's pretty niche if you ask me. I also read that the majority of athletes come from a just few places in the respective countries, so it kinda sounds like cyclo-cross or indoor cycling. Not a very impressive talent pool.

Anyway, I obviously see the incentives for the athletes and coaches who work for Norway right now. It would be bad for them in the long-run as individuals of course. But isn't this the point of having governing bodies - to prioritize the long-term interest of the sport?

 

[DenisMenchov]

Great post, thank you for taking the time to explain. Why are skis not as important going up the big climb - that was unclear to me? Is it just easier to make good skis for that and so the playing field is pretty even, although the physical demands are peculiar for that event?

That's pretty niche if you ask me. I also read that the majority of athletes come from a just few places in the respective countries, so it kinda sounds like cyclo-cross or indoor cycling. Not a very impressive talent pool.

Anyway, I obviously see the incentives for the athletes and coaches who work for Norway right now. It would be bad for them in the long-run as individuals of course. But isn't this the point of having governing bodies - to prioritize the long-term interest of the sport?

Big climb stage he talks about is 2km ascent up the alpine track at the end of every Tour de Ski race. Skis are not important in that stage because they use the so called freestyle technique where you climb up the mountain in V shape and wax has minimum effect there, as it's basically just a run towards the top with no downhill.

 

[Pozzovivo]

he

she I think

 

[Samu Cuenca]

The strength in depth is absurd.

Jeanmonnot and Perrot have dominated the season and were flying in the first few races at Antholz and then dropped back for slightly disappointing individual medal hauls.

Simon was given a nice light suspension, came into the world cup skiing at IBU Cup pace and then within two weeks was winning races and shushing haters.

Michelon has been the fifth best french biathlete, comes out with a gold and silver skiing like Denise Hermann.

The men were less ridiculous because they broadly lived up to form – QFM is a big race guy who is fast with erratic shooting, but when he shoots well he wins. Jacquelin is an idiot.

Perrot hasn't really been that dominant and wouldn't be leading the World Cup if Botn had done all races or if Giacomel hadn't had a meltdown on the shooting range in Nové Město.

 

[Salvarani]

Why are skis not as important going up the big climb - that was unclear to me? Is it just easier to make good skis for that and so the playing field is pretty even, although the physical demands are peculiar for that event?

It is because of the technique and that you wax them a bit differently depending on skate or classic as well.

Then Alpe is obviously just a climb and no descents, so how they glide going down becomes a non-factor in that event.

 

[Divergence]

Klaebo is extremely ridiculous. Being jacked up to the gills is not really interesting. The big climb at the Tour de Ski is the only race I watch and that pretty much tells me who is the best XC skier.

 

[AmRacer]

Klaebo is extremely ridiculous. Being jacked up to the gills is not really interesting. The big climb at the Tour de Ski is the only race I watch and that pretty much tells me who is the best XC skier.

Ski Classics

Ski Classics is a series of long-distance cross-country ski races in classic style that has been held since 2011. Spanning 14 events across 10 event weekends in 6 countries, promises an inspiring showcase of skill, determination, and fierce competition.

skiclassics.com

 

[Squire]

Anyway, I obviously see the incentives for the athletes and coaches who work for Norway right now. It would be bad for them in the long-run as individuals of course. But isn't this the point of having governing bodies - to prioritize the long-term interest of the sport?

The interest in cross-country skiing has dropped quite significantly in Norway too in recent years, both in terms of recruitment and viewership. I would guess partly because of the Norwegian dominance making the sport boring, partly because of a lack of interesting characters (Klæbo is a Temu Northug without any of the charisma), partly because of more competition from other sports combined with less snowy winters, and partly because the national broadcaster doesn't have all the TV rights anymore. Some commercial TV stations thought they could milk the sports' popularity, so it's not that easily accessible these days. But all that doesn't change the fact that cross-country skiing is several orders of magnitude bigger in Norway than in all other countries except maybe Sweden. The are probably 50 Norwegians who would go straight into the national team of most other nations. And below the elite level, there are still plenty of guys doing cross-country skiing almost full-time.

The lack of competition and the impact that has on the future of the sport is frequently being discussed in Norway too. But I guess it's not up to the national team to make themselves worse on purpose. Personally I miss longer individual start races. Sprints still feel somewhat gimmicky to me even though it's been a thing for 20+ years now, and the prevalence of mass-starts makes many of the longer races glorified sprints and a Klæbo playground too if the course isn't brutal like it was now in the Olympics (where he still won, but what can you do).

 

[kingjr]

If Pogacar could outpunch Van der Poel, out ITT Remco, and outsprint Milan he would be like J.H.Klabo.

This kind of dominance is either very suspect, or completely normal - because all of the XC events and most of the big bike races essentially measure the same thing and one guy is better than the rest on this thing.

How can one person be so much better than all of the rest? Maybe that's completely normal in niche sports.

Klæbo is basically van der Poel, and most cross-country skiing courses are Glasgow.

 

[Pozzovivo]

The interest in cross-country skiing has dropped quite significantly in Norway too in recent years, both in terms of recruitment and viewership. I would guess partly because of the Norwegian dominance making the sport boring, partly because of a lack of interesting characters (Klæbo is a Temu Northug without any of the charisma), partly because of more competition from other sports combined with less snowy winters, and partly because the national broadcaster doesn't have all the TV rights anymore. Some commercial TV stations thought they could milk the sports' popularity, so it's not that easily accessible these days. But all that doesn't change the fact that cross-country skiing is several orders of magnitude bigger in Norway than in all other countries except maybe Sweden. The are probably 50 Norwegians who would go straight into the national team of most other nations. And below the elite level, there are still plenty of guys doing cross-country skiing almost full-time.

The lack of competition and the impact that has on the future of the sport is frequently being discussed in Norway too. But I guess it's not up to the national team to make themselves worse on purpose. Personally I miss longer individual start races. Sprints still feel somewhat gimmicky to me even though it's been a thing for 20+ years now, and the prevalence of mass-starts makes many of the longer races glorified sprints and a Klæbo playground too if the course isn't brutal like it was now in the Olympics (where he still won, but what can you do).

Aside from the Olympics. Why don't they do what other sports in general do - have private sponsorship for athletes and or private teams? Why is the normal season through national teams in winter sports - it's so weird??

 

[AmRacer]

Aside from the Olympics. Why don't they do what other sports in general do - have private sponsorship for athletes and or private teams? Why is the normal season through national teams in winter sports - it's so weird??

They have

Ski Classics

Ski Classics is a series of long-distance cross-country ski races in classic style that has been held since 2011. Spanning 14 events across 10 event weekends in 6 countries, promises an inspiring showcase of skill, determination, and fierce competition.

skiclassics.com

 

[Pozzovivo]

They have

Ski Classics

Ski Classics is a series of long-distance cross-country ski races in classic style that has been held since 2011. Spanning 14 events across 10 event weekends in 6 countries, promises an inspiring showcase of skill, determination, and fierce competition.

skiclassics.com

But does the olympic athletes attend these races? There is a world cup series with the best guys but they always represent their country. Will Klaebo win Vasaloppet this year for instance?

 

[AmRacer]

But does the olympic athletes attend these races? There is a world cup series with the best guys but they always represented their country?

Ski classics is long distance racing. A few WC skiers show up for some of the races.

 

[AmRacer]

But does the olympic athletes attend these races? There is a world cup series with the best guys but they always represent their country. Will Klaebo win Vasaloppet this year for instance?

Only a selected few of the WC skiers have a chance at ski classic, but a few more could do well with specific training.