Doping in XC skiing

[sadfitty]

A general note about the russians:

They are by no means lazy, I've never said that. I have been on training camps living next to the russians and their are indeed hard working. Their problem is the mentality in their group. I've seen young female skiiers being forced out training when they are so tired they can barely stand. Some of you might think that is hardcore and cool, but really, those girls should have been resting. I've also seen them chop wood for training. Good training, yes, but not ideal.

One of their biggest problems is an old coaching staff. Many of the coaches have been with them since the Soviet era and likes being drunk more than coaching. If only I had a dollar every time I saw a drunk russian coach doing something stupid.

To summarize: They're not lazy but their whole operation is so hopelessly unprofessional(don't get me started on ski waxing) that is possible for clean athletes to beat them.

 

[maltiv]

I'm a Lars Berger fan. "Oh, I didn't have a good biathlon season. Let's become XC world champ then." And then sticking to biathlon forever anyway, because he likes it so much.

Same, the guy gets a lot of criticism in Norway but I think he's awesome. People wonder why he doesn't just go XC skiing, considering when he tried he became world champion, but he answers simply that he believes biathlon is more fun. That's an admirable decision from a guy who genuinely enjoys his sport despite the possibility of more victories and money elsewhere. I think one of my favourite moments this year was when Martin Fourcade had done an almost perfect run and was sure he was going to win. The only one who could beat him was Lars Berger, but he usually misses 5/10 shots. When he came into the last shooting, he suddenly just shot down all the targets in something like 5 seconds. That was just an enormous shock, not least for himself who didn't believe what he had just done. Later he admitted that it was just luck and he barely even tried to aim

Here's the clip by the way: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTt_t_KeJ_8

 

[Cloxxki]

When he came into the last shooting, he suddenly just shot down all the targets in something like 5 seconds. That was just an enormous shock, not least for himself who didn't believe what he had just done. Later he admitted that it was just luck and he barely even tried to aim

Oh man, that's the most awesome sport to me. Do a lot of races, be fast, and sometimes get it right when you don't expect it.
I'd be pretty content winnen one WC race, and he's gotten quite a few over the years. Sometimes he skis so well he can deal with the extra penalty lap.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Indeed. For some reason, I do like the German skiing a lot. Will they get the shooting half right this time? I root for them. I don't don't have that in any other sport. Not even XC.

When Martin Fourcade has a good day on the skis, he can only be beat by a superfast guy with a rare flawless shoot. Sure seems to have his game together.
I'm a Lars Berger fan. "Oh, I didn't have a good biathlon season. Let's become XC world champ then." And then sticking to biathlon forever anyway, because he likes it so much. He and his sis have odd short moments where they get in really good shape, physically and mentally, and cannot be beaten. Tora having that odd way of skiing the last lap way faster than the first one, and faster than the competition. When she's in shape.

But what about the Russians. For some reason, they tend to be great shots. Their shooting at times is so boring, by lack of errors. They're doing something right, and it seems there's little room for it to be doping.

Simone Hauswald seemed odd to me. Or I remember incorrectly. At first had to fight to be on the WC team at alll. Slowish, for a German, but at times good with the shoot. Then at the end of her career, she found ski speed, at times the fastest of the scene, and started missing important shots. She then retired. If The Clinic were a biathlon-specific forum, that would raise some eyebrows. Late career speed, really?

I find myself rooting for the Germans much of the time in biathlon. I have plenty of personal links to the country to help justify that

I know that the XC team didn't do themselves much justice in 2010-11, but I can't help but feel that the German passion for biathlon does lead to it being the first choice of many (see Gößner for an obvious example); especially on 2010-11 form, you could see some of the biathletes doing as good a job in XC as their specialist brethren did, maybe less so on the men's side (though Peiffer is obviously a strong candidate) but definitely on the women's side, where you could make a case for at least Neuner and Gößner, but potentially Henkel, Bachmann and even Hitzer too, being at least reasonable options, if they were to be able to fully focus themselves for it, especially with Zeller not getting any younger.

Will be interesting to see the Fourcade/Bø fight develop in the next few years - at least until Tarjei's little brother shows up, because reports suggest that he is to Tarjei what Martin is to Simon, which is pretty scary. Lars Berger is just a lot of fun to have around and long may we continue to have him around.

Must admit that Hauswald's late-career switcheroo is kind of worrying, but I would venture to suggest it isn't necessarily too suspicious, on the basis that if one aspect of your game is good and the other less so, you work on the one that is less so; if you work on it too much however you may lose what you had, and so if she spent all her time on her skiing it would make sense that her shooting would suffer; where she found the ski speed from is an interesting question however. I'm sure that if the Clinic were biathlon-specific there'd be quite a few questions about Kaisa Mäkäräinen's self-reinvention, especially given Finland's reputation in XC. On the other hand, her ski speed hasn't changed really, she's just become much more reliable with the rifle.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

I also do believe that Northug's sprint is one of his most natural talents.

But - how widespread is doping in skiing? You want my opinion, I think it is rather systematic among, say, the top40 contenders at least. Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, the least flawed control system such as the blood passport is not even in use at the moment.

Also I hold no nationalistic bias towards favouring the Finns, I think they have messed things up epically in many occasions. But I honestly dont think that the Norwegians or Swedes (or any others for that matter) are that much cleaner. They are tidier to be sure and probably better equipped in that department too.

Why so? Well, they regularly beat the dopers.

And actually my fave skier is Per Elofsson. Simply for his amazingly beautiful skate technique. He is the only modern top skier about whom I would even entertain the possibility of having raced clean.

EDIT: Also, should we not make a thread for this years world cup? There must be more to skiing than meets the clinic

You're wrong and I believe they invented it.

 

[meat puppet]

I stand corrected then, thanks. This is obviously a good thing.

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

so... noone going to mention 7 (8?) Norwegian women in the top 10 today?

 

[LouieLouie]

That's always the case in the first few races of the season, but tend to even out later on. Some years ago it was 10 out of 10. It has been speculated if the reason is that you need to peak way too early to even be picked for the national team since the competition is insanely fierce.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Hometown race, lots of prospects going all out to impress (+ Tora Berger, a known top notch biathlete) to get into the national team. I mean, Bjørgen, Johaug, Steira and Skøfterud being in the top 10 is not exactly a surprise, is it? All it takes is a couple of underperformers (eg Haag, Lähteenmäki) and some good days by young prospects who are trying to get themselves noticed so on better form than most at this point in the season, and you get that.

 

[Cloxxki]

Hometown race, lots of prospects going all out to impress (+ Tora Berger, a known top notch biathlete) to get into the national team. I mean, Bjørgen, Johaug, Steira and Skøfterud being in the top 10 is not exactly a surprise, is it? All it takes is a couple of underperformers (eg Haag, Lähteenmäki) and some good days by young prospects who are trying to get themselves noticed so on better form than most at this point in the season, and you get that.

Among the men, many more biathletes. Oddly, only Berger got himself a top-10. Svendsen and Boe were demoted to something like WC firsttimes. Even Rafsas was outright slow. Olsen, surprisingly quick. He was surprised himself, hmmm...
I did seem to see conditions get slower, but that's never kept Svendsen and Boe for kicking behinds. Seems like the XC guys hit their biathlon counterparts more than the biathletes. The recent past has been the opposite I believe.

For Tora Berger to lose some time of the fastest XC'er, I can live with that. Just surprised so few women fill up the significant gap. 43s behind Bjoergen (ugh), and still 4th place for Tora. In biathlon, I believe the top is wider. Or they just don't have Bjoergen sticking out 27s from the runner-up over 10km.
Neuner at times was like that, but biathlon skiing is more about being brave (stupid) than outright speed.

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

Among the men, many more biathletes. Oddly, only Berger got himself a top-10. Svendsen and Boe were demoted to something like WC firsttimes. Even Rafsas was outright slow. Olsen, surprisingly quick. He was surprised himself, hmmm...
I did seem to see conditions get slower, but that's never kept Svendsen and Boe for kicking behinds. Seems like the XC guys hit their biathlon counterparts more than the biathletes. The recent past has been the opposite I believe.

For Tora Berger to lose some time of the fastest XC'er, I can live with that. Just surprised so few women fill up the significant gap. 43s behind Bjoergen (ugh), and still 4th place for Tora. In biathlon, I believe the top is wider. Or they just don't have Bjoergen sticking out 27s from the runner-up over 10km.
Neuner at times was like that, but biathlon skiing is more about being brave (stupid) than outright speed.

boe have been sick as far as i know, but yea dissapointing by Svendsen and Hafsaas

 

[maltiv]

so... noone going to mention 7 (8?) Norwegian women in the top 10 today?

Really, everyone else looked as if they hadn't seen snow for a year. Kowalczyk's technique was just plain horrible to watch. Too bad Neuner wasn't there because I think she could've challenged Bjørgen.

 

[Walkman]

Really, everyone else looked as if they hadn't seen snow for a year. Kowalczyk's technique was just plain horrible to watch. Too bad Neuner wasn't there because I think she could've challenged Bjørgen.

No way, and I really like Neuner. Berger only gor fourth because of the fact that she was caught by Steira and was able to cruise on her back for two laps. If you think of it, it's not really hard to figure out why she did that well.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Among the men, many more biathletes. Oddly, only Berger got himself a top-10. Svendsen and Boe were demoted to something like WC firsttimes. Even Rafsas was outright slow. Olsen, surprisingly quick. He was surprised himself, hmmm...
I did seem to see conditions get slower, but that's never kept Svendsen and Boe for kicking behinds. Seems like the XC guys hit their biathlon counterparts more than the biathletes. The recent past has been the opposite I believe.

For Tora Berger to lose some time of the fastest XC'er, I can live with that. Just surprised so few women fill up the significant gap. 43s behind Bjoergen (ugh), and still 4th place for Tora. In biathlon, I believe the top is wider. Or they just don't have Bjoergen sticking out 27s from the runner-up over 10km.
Neuner at times was like that, but biathlon skiing is more about being brave (stupid) than outright speed.

The other thing is that the range of skills in biathlon is much more extreme. The likes of the Berger siblings, Neuner, Bø, Bjørndalen, Martin Fourcade, Miriam Gößner and Mäkäräinen may compete on a given day in an XC event, but the likes of, say, Maxim Maksimov, Daniel Mesotitsch and Marie Dorin would not; shooting is far more important to them, and so the ski times reflect that. The other thing is that, of course, the shooting means a situation in biathlon can change wildly from one moment to the next. I would expect to see certain spray-the-bullets-around-wherever biathletes to therefore regress in their XC skills; Lars Berger being the long term example, but I would not be surprised to see likewise from Gößner or Peiffer (let's use Gößner as the example here since she has competed in XC at the biggest stage); she wants to be a biathlete, but her shooting is poor. Her ski times were competitive enough for somebody her age on the XC world circuit, which translates to being amongst the fastest biathletes (i.e. those who are capable of competing with XC guys/girls). However, her shooting is woeful, even worse than Neuner when she first arrived on the scene. So what does she do? Work on the shooting. It's the obvious solution. But at the same time as she's doing that, the XC people she competed against at the same age will have been working solely on their XC, so you would expect Gößner, after a season of biathlon, to then compete with the XC specialists and not be as good in comparison as she was previously.

This is obviously an oversimplified rule of thumb, as form and goals have to be taken into account; an early-season race like this isn't truly representative.

Some of Neuner's ski times are more than 43" faster than Berger over 10km, it's true. But that doesn't necessarily translate to being as fast as Bjørgen.

 

[maltiv]

No way, and I really like Neuner. Berger only gor fourth because of the fact that she was caught by Steira and was able to cruise on her back for two laps. If you think of it, it's not really hard to figure out why she did that well.

Neuner would also have had an early start nummer and found someone to draft. The system is flawed really, drafting is hugely effective and yet it is allowed in time trials.

 

[Cloxxki]

There's also the advantage of not having to perfect your classic kick, as a biathlete. You'll do some classic training, run and bound, but the classic is not a goal in itself anymore. That in part should give room to work on shooting, IMO. And explains why biathletes who are "spoiled" to only have to "interval" their races (being, a bit like an easy training session which the body is accustomed to, with shorter rests).

The snow was quite hard, and fast if you stayed in control, it seemed. Being a JK type of skier myself (scared ****less downhill, but some muscles to claw myself forward), I can say that slippery, unpredictable, yet fast gliding surfaces can be utterly frustrating. Some of the most technical skiers were looking cumbersome at times, balancing to not go down. She'll be back.

 

[Ingenerius]

boe have been sick as far as i know, but yea dissapointing by Svendsen and Hafsaas

Thought so too and was especially surprised Svendsen didn't do better, he was really optimistic regarding his own chances beforehand, so seemed confident in his condition.

The answer came today. He and Sjur Røthe had problems with the transition to snow(first race), and got really stiff in the muscles at the front of the legs. Today the muscles were more used to it, and they both did much better races.

Hafsaas was really disappointed since it seems like his mysterious health problems are still there, and he is unable to push hard. He was basically crying on TV. I'm guessing he is gonna give up for good, if he doesn't get rid of the problems and find some skiing form this year.

Must be boring being Bjørgen, I wouldn't be able to feel any joy, if I knew 100% beforehand that I was gonna win. I guess Tour de Ski will be exciting for her though and will feel good to win.

 

[Cloxxki]

Thought so too and was especially surprised Svendsen didn't do better, he was really optimistic regarding his own chances beforehand, so seemed confident in his condition.

The answer came today. He and Sjur Røthe had problems with the transition to snow(first race), and got really stiff in the muscles at the front of the legs. Today the muscles were more used to it, and they both did much better races.

Hafsaas was really disappointed since it seems like his mysterious health problems are still there, and he is unable to push hard. He was basically crying on TV. I'm guessing he is gonna give up for good, if he doesn't get rid of the problems and find some skiing form this year.

Must be boring being Bjørgen, I wouldn't be able to feel any joy, if I knew 100% beforehand that I was gonna win. I guess Tour de Ski will be exciting for her though and will feel good to win.

Thanks for that background. Hafsaas' speed was so great when he hit the WC scene, I thought he'd be like a Neuner. Or an early Bjoerndalen for that matter. Didn't know of his health. Those things can be so tricky to find out, no matter how simple the problem is. A lady friend of mine, super quick in her sport, is useless if she eats any gluten. But to find out such allergy...long road sometimes.
I had hopes Svendsen would come to the front today, but the 45s gap he was bridging was a bit too much. Or maybe he was even shy to get in the way of Northug, in from of home crowd?

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

I was impressed by Krogh today, thought last year in Falun was just a 1 time thing, but he really showed some good skiing today, the Norwegians will be hard to beat over the next years it looks like.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Thanks for that background. Hafsaas' speed was so great when he hit the WC scene, I thought he'd be like a Neuner. Or an early Bjoerndalen for that matter. Didn't know of his health. Those things can be so tricky to find out, no matter how simple the problem is. A lady friend of mine, super quick in her sport, is useless if she eats any gluten. But to find out such allergy...long road sometimes.
I had hopes Svendsen would come to the front today, but the 45s gap he was bridging was a bit too much. Or maybe he was even shy to get in the way of Northug, in from of home crowd?

I think after pulling all that time back (and then them pushing just as he got there, meaning he had to pull back on again), he got there just too late to be able to recover enough to compete in the finale. If he'd got there 4-500m earlier, when he first appeared to make contact, it could have been interesting. He was hanging on to the back of the group looking pretty spent for a period there.

 

[Cloxxki]

Svendsen apparently got the fastest leg time. As did Tora Berger (lies race was before I woke up)

All is well again.

Perhaps an advantage to them to be used to fight back from big deficits?

 

[Altitude]

Are there any websites that have live streaming of races? Like a steephill.tv of XC skiiing?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Are there any websites that have live streaming of races? Like a steephill.tv of XC skiiing?

try firstrow's "other" section. It has a few streams there. I'm sure any Norwegian channel available online will be able to help you too.

When it comes to biathlon, if that takes your interest, the IBU stream all world cup events in full from their website.

 

[Ingenerius]

Thanks for that background. Hafsaas' speed was so great when he hit the WC scene, I thought he'd be like a Neuner. Or an early Bjoerndalen for that matter. Didn't know of his health. Those things can be so tricky to find out, no matter how simple the problem is. A lady friend of mine, super quick in her sport, is useless if she eats any gluten. But to find out such allergy...long road sometimes.
I had hopes Svendsen would come to the front today, but the 45s gap he was bridging was a bit too much. Or maybe he was even shy to get in the way of Northug, in from of home crowd?

Yeah it is one of those weird things no one can really tell, supposedly his breathing is affected, but it is hard for him to feel it, he is just unable to push. Was troubled with it the whole last season, and he thought he was rid of it now, but no.


It was actually more like 1min 45s he was bridging, but they went really really slow at the front for 8,5 km. After going full speed the whole way, with the others cruising, yeah... Shy to get in front of Northug and steal glory is the last thing Svendsen would be

 

[Cloxxki]

Yeah it is one of those weird things no one can really tell, supposedly his breathing is affected, but it is hard for him to feel it, he is just unable to push. Was troubled with it the whole last season, and he thought he was rid of it now, but no.

It was actually more like 1min 45s he was bridging, but they went really really slow at the front for 8,5 km. After going full speed the whole way, with the others cruising, yeah... Shy to get in front of Northug and steal glory is the last thing Svendsen would be

That's rough for Hafsas. Or, did they take his sauce?

I hope next time they won't let Svendsen ancor for the "slow" team. Which ends up finishing like 5 seconds down on the other 2 national teams after 40km.