Doping, nationalism, culture

[lean mean &green]

It's a fantastically thought provoking article. He's been thinking about this problem for 25 years, and the implications are pretty bleak really aren't they?

it's not that thought provoking if you've hung around the clinic for more than a week. there's few if any ideas in it that hadn't occurred to me ages ago.

also, there are plenty of simple changes that would move the sport forward that he's missed so it's not really all that bleak either. there's actually more hope than there has been for some time. pessimism bias much?

 

[Grandillusion]

it's not that thought provoking if you've hung around the clinic for more than a week. there's few if any ideas in it that hadn't occurred to me ages ago.

also, there are plenty of simple changes that would move the sport forward that he's missed so it's not really all that bleak either. there's actually more hope than there has been for some time. pessimism bias much?

You can try and fool yourself, but don't think anybody else will be convinced.

Let's hear your plan then.

 

[lean mean &green]

You can try and fool yourself, but don't think anybody else will be convinced.

Let's hear your plan then.

really, you're a bright guy, you can't figure it out for yourself?

1. completely independent testing and results management.

2. transparency - how often are athletes tested? what samples are taken? blood? urine? timing of those tests? etc. the info made public from WADA's TdF independent observer report should be standard practice.

3. a more robust passport based system.

4. graduated penalties - stronger evidence and more efficacious drugs/methods recieve harsher penalties. weaker drugs where there's a chance of contamination recieve less. hypothetically, maybe as little as 3 months where contamination is a realistic concern. your're caught with blood bags or EPO? 2 years or maybe even more. leniency for cooperation is also a step in the right direction.

(we may need to categorize the prohibited substance list)

(for slower types, this would start to eliminate the all or nothing labeling stigma of doping)

5. inform and educate the general public of these ideas

6. WADA accounting with the intent to recognize sports federations or governing bodies that are meeting higher standards. Fully compliant organizations should be recognized as such. Sports/federations that aren't compliant should also be recognized. Highly, moderately, and minimally compliant organizations could be labeled platinum, gold, and silver respectively or some other arbitrary ranking you prefer more.

there's more, should i keep going or do you get the point?

 

[Grandillusion]

No, keep going. It'd be great if you could try to successfully engage a few people into dialogue as well. I'd be really grateful if you succeeded. Honestly, I'm all ears.

 

[Grandillusion]

Any chance you might address some of Dr Hobermans points LGM? The interesting cultural contradictions he alludes to. The ones which may make your plan rather awkward to implement?

Page 4: Indifference of sports fans to PED use.

The pretence by authorities regarding enforcement?

The hypocritical pretence by "fans" on other parts of this forum that they care about PED use. Go to the Tour de France predictions section and gauge how much they care about the issue.

Ask yourself how many are like them.

Then get back to me with some analysis. As I say, I'm all ears.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

No, keep going. It'd be great if you could try to successfully engage a few people into dialogue as well. I'd be really grateful if you succeeded. Honestly, I'm all ears.

If you want to engage dialogue with people - then you should work on your communication skills ....

You can try and fool yourself, but don't think anybody else will be convinced.

Let's hear your plan then.

 

[Grandillusion]

If you want to engage dialogue with people - then you should work on your communication skills ....

Politeness breaks down in the face of indifference & silence & pathetic attempts to bully & obfuscate.

And I was wondering if he'd engage other people, not me. Talk about Omerta, you guys take the biscuit.

 

[lean mean &green]

Any chance you might address some of Dr Hobermans points LGM? The interesting cultural contradictions he alludes to. The ones which may make your plan rather awkward to implement?

Page 4: Indifference of sports fans to PED use.

The pretence by authorities regarding enforcement?

The hypocritical pretence by "fans" on other parts of this forum that they care about PED use. Go to the Tour de France predictions section and gauge how much they care about the issue.

Ask yourself how many are like them.

Then get back to me with some analysis. As I say, I'm all ears.

the suggested changes don't address those contradictions or fan apathy, they are necessary as a result of them.

 

[lean mean &green]

No, keep going. It'd be great if you could try to successfully engage a few people into dialogue as well. I'd be really grateful if you succeeded. Honestly, I'm all ears.

the thing is, we've been over this stuff many times.

#4 (graduated penalties) and #6 (UCI, FIFA, NFL, etc report cards) are mostly my idea but I wouldn't be surprised if someone's come up with them before, they're far from genius.

 

[Grandillusion]

the suggested changes don't address those contradictions or fan apathy, they are necessary as a result of them.

But that avoids the whole issue - the problem of implementing the changes is the whole story. You seem to imply it's a simple slam-dunk, and it isn't. It's a nigh on insuperable hurdle, and the interesting debate is how change really can happen.

Just making a list and crossing your fingers is going to get nobody anywhere.

The dudes over on the other side (TDF) are part of the hurdle, and their hypocrisy is pretty obvious & I would have thought needed challenging.

Nobody seems to be calling them out. Asking them look at their attitudes.

That's all I'm getting at.

I'm not trying to **** anybody off, but they don't like it & have been ignoring and attacking.

No probs, I can handle that. But don't pretend I'm full of ****.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Politeness breaks down in the face of indifference & silence & pathetic attempts to bully & obfuscate.

And I was wondering if he'd engage other people, not me. Talk about Omerta, you guys take the biscuit.

You joined here last month.
How would you know LMGs position or style if you have not enagaged them?
Or if you lurked then how is it you missed there many posts that are plain and articulate?

That the article went over your head is your problem - if you asked nicely I am sure LMG would take the time to explain it to you.

 

[Grandillusion]

You joined here last month.
How would you know LMGs position or style if you have not enagaged them?
Or if you lurked then how is it you missed there many posts that are plain and articulate?

That the article went over your head is your problem - if you asked nicely I am sure LMG would take the time to explain it to you.

Don't try and patronise me matey! Over my head? He didn't address any of the important points mentioned by Hoberman. Just gave an optimistic bullet point list which totally misses the point of what Hoberman is getting at, and attempts to patronise and undermine him. Just as Wiggo did so outrageously. Incredible arrogance.

Position or style? What are you drivelling about?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Don't try and patronise me matey! Over my head? He didn't address any of the important points mentioned by Hoberman. Just gave an optimistic bullet point list which totally misses the point of what Hoberman is getting at, and attempts to patronise and undermine him. Just as Wiggo did so outrageously. Incredible arrogance.

Position or style? What are you drivelling about?

You stated that Hobermans piece was "though provoking" and then you said it was "bleak".

LMGS pointed out that much of what Hobermans said has been addressed here before and that things are not bleak. Then he answered your question.
Hoberman didn't make any particular point - he made (correct) observations about "fans" which has little to do with solutions.

 

[Grandillusion]

You stated that Hobermans piece was "though provoking" and then you said it was "bleak".

LMGS pointed out that much of what Hobermans said has been addressed here before and that things are not bleak. Then he answered your question.
Hoberman didn't make any particular point - he made (correct) observations about "fans" which has little to do with solutions.

You are wrong about how bleak things are IMO. Hoberman is described seeming jaded, and the cultural contradictions he identifies are seen by him as considerable hurdles to progress.

His correct observations about fans impact powerfully on the possibility for change. It's very interesting line of thought to follow, but you and others seem incredibly reluctant to go down that path. I don't know why.

He is hopeful, but the description jaded is hardly super-optimistic.

I think you are complacent and reluctant to face up to the difficulties lying ahead. And awesomely patronising.

 

[fatandfast]

it's not that thought provoking if you've hung around the clinic for more than a week. there's few if any ideas in it that hadn't occurred to me ages ago.

also, there are plenty of simple changes that would move the sport forward that he's missed so it's not really all that bleak either. there's actually more hope than there has been for some time. pessimism bias much?

If you have some misplaced opinion that things are greatly improved may I suggest making a flow chart using regular symbols,or using old fortran symbols that have lots of and/if statements after an action. The doped or accused oped rider is still going to be subjected to a huge variation in outcome. Take anybody that has been popped in the last 3 years. Make sure that your diagram includes the return to the riders home country. Contador and Schleck, Armstrong,Hincapie, Vaughters all riders caught for doping by the UCI,all with completely different outcomes.

Until any doping policy for pro bike racing has zero to do w the federation that the offending rider participated in as an amateur and the IOC weighing in the process will be complicated and ineffective. Right now the dozens of rider organizations,federations,private and government financiers or sanctioning agencies all struggling to agree who is in charge will continue the mess.

The idea that McQuaid has been endorsed by a few of the existing groups is insane. The fact that he reviewed his current resume, w experiences in not catching Lance or really anybody else, degrading public confidence in pro cycling to an all time low and feeling that he is eager to continue with more of the same is bewildering. He has failed in every aspect.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

You are wrong about how bleak things are IMO. Hoberman is described seeming jaded, and the cultural contradictions he identifies are seen by him as considerable hurdles to progress.

His correct observations about fans impact powerfully on the possibility for change. It's very interesting line of thought to follow, but you and others seem incredibly reluctant to go down that path. I don't know why.

He is hopeful, but the description jaded is hardly super-optimistic.

I think you are complacent and reluctant to face up to the difficulties lying ahead. And awesomely patronising.

Hoberman doesn't sound very bleak here:

“It’s the greatest opportunity you can imagine,” he said. “It’s a stunning opportunity to deconstruct a rotten system and with the support of corporations that really mean reform, to put something back together that will be a great improvement from the original.”

As I said, you missed the point.

 

[Grandillusion]

Hoberman doesn't sound very bleak here:

“It’s the greatest opportunity you can imagine,” he said. “It’s a stunning opportunity to deconstruct a rotten system and with the support of corporations that really mean reform, to put something back together that will be a great improvement from the original.”

As I said, you missed the point.

No, you've missed the point. Again and again and again. The fact that it's an amazing opportunity (which I've stated before and you well know) doesn't make the magnitude of the task ahead any easier. It's a massive problem. Don't you get it?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

No, you've missed the point. Again and again and again. The fact that it's an amazing opportunity (which I've stated before and you well know) doesn't make the magnitude of the task ahead any easier. It's a massive problem. Don't you get it?

Where have you stated that it's an "amazing opportunity"? Was this before are after you said it was "bleak"?

Nor has anyone stated that it is not a massive problem or even that there is a simple fix. That was your attempted put down of LMGs points.

 

[Grandillusion]

Where have you stated that it's an "amazing opportunity"? Was this before are after you said it was "bleak"?

Nor has anyone stated that it is not a massive problem or even that there is a simple fix. That was your attempted put down of LMGs points.

In the thread Hog started, asking about proof of doping. This feels like some bizarre Monty Python argument sketch. Are you just trolling for fun? 'Cos if you are it's a royal pain in the ****. Stop it if that's the case.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

No, you've missed the point. Again and again and again. The fact that it's an amazing opportunity (which I've stated before and you well know) doesn't make the magnitude of the task ahead any easier. It's a massive problem. Don't you get it?

Where have you stated that it's an "amazing opportunity"? Was this before or after you said it was "bleak"?

Nor has anyone stated that it is not a massive problem or even that there is a simple fix. That was your attempted put down of LMGs points.

 

[Grandillusion]

Where have you stated that it's an "amazing opportunity"? Was this before are after you said it was "bleak"?

Nor has anyone stated that it is not a massive problem or even that there is a simple fix. That was your attempted put down of LMGs points.

LMG gave the airy impression this was a simple tick the list job. He was plainly attempting to patronise and dismiss. Don't try and bull**** me mate. I know your game.

And LMG can fight his own battles.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

In the thread Hog started, asking about proof of doping. This feels like some bizarre Monty Python argument sketch. Are you just trolling for fun? 'Cos if you are it's a royal pain in the ****. Stop it if that's the case.

Of course - we were talking about another thread.

So, was Hobermans point "bleak" or was that,rant for some other thread?

 

[Grandillusion]

Of course - we were talking about another thread.

So, was Hobermans point "bleak" or was that,rant for some other thread?

Obfuscation again Dr. "We" were talking about Tygarts RD being a fantastic opportunity. That's what Hoberman was referring to. That's what I was referring to. That's what you know "we" are talking about.

Save your for somewhere it's appropriate, and get real. It's pathetic.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

LMG gave the airy impression this was a simple tick the list job. He was plainly attempting to patronise and dismiss. Don't try and bull**** me mate. I know your game.

And LMG can fight his own battles.

You asked a poster for some solutions and then whine when they did?!

The solutions are relatively easy to list, getting to these points is somewhat harder - but at no point did LMGS say that it was easy to solve.

No need to get snippy just because you said Hoberman sounded bleak.

 

[Grandillusion]

You asked a poster for some solutions and then whine when they did?!

The solutions are relatively easy to list, getting to these points is somewhat harder - but at no point did LMGS say that it was easy to solve.

No need to get snippy just because you said Hoberman sounded bleak.

No, I asked LMG for a plan, and thanked him when he provided a list, with condescending tone. He distinctly gave the impression to me that that was the end of the matter. Job done. In my next post, not "whining" by the way, I asked if he could address the issue of the cultural contradictions Hoberman identified as being so troublesome.

Hoberman's insights have led him to be described by his interviewer as seeming somewhat jaded.

Given the enormity of the task at hand, perhaps I could be forgiven for the descriptor "bleak". You seem to see it as enormous problem, worth breaking my balls over. It's a pain in the ****, so forgive my apparent "snippiness".