Dr. Ashenden - a man of principle!

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Oct 14, 2012
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I am thinking that Ashenden is one of those PhD types who do not thrive in situations that require compromise and political operating. He is more of the this is right and that is wrong type of personality. The sphere that CCN works in is a more pragmatic and political system, where your have to give ground to make ground. If thats is close to correct, then MA is better served to remove himself from CCN, and can better serve the battle against drugs in sport from a more outside and consultive position. This in no way to claim that either type of person is good or bad, in fact it takes all types to make the world work.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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DirtyWorks said:
Does Vayer have a thread already? That guy will bring problems to anti-doping anything because he's treating it like the "old men who make money in cycling club."
Why do you think Vayer will bring problems?
He has always been committed to anti-doping. Even Ashenden acknowledged that he & CCN have the same goal, it is just the methods that Ashenden disagrees with.

I can actually see both sides in this, I don't see a huge problem in talking to LA (either privately or as a group) but ultimately LA needs to co-operate with only USADA. As Python &JmB noted it may be transparency of the meeting that may be the issue.
 
DirtyWorks said:
These are two absolutely essential questions. If the guy wants to retain some credibility as an anti-doping advocate, he can't be associated with CCN after they contact Wonderboy.



Someone contacting Wonderboy as representing CCN sets awful precedent regardless of any personal motives that might be attributed to Ashenden.

I have to wonder how the decision for a CCN representative contacting Wonderboy was made. That needs to be explained in detail.

JMBeushrimp said it more colorfully!
According to the CN interview with Vayer, it was Vayer alone who contacted Armstrong, not the CCN. Vayer indicated plainly that it was him acting on his own and not in any capacity representing CCN. Ashendon's comments were of the impression that the organization itself initiated contact with Armstrong. There must be more to this than is currently available in the media.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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GreasyMonkey said:
It seems that every other person with involvement is somehow tainted or compromised to the degree that they cannot claim to stand on their principles and integrity.
they can, and they do.

just a different definition and version of principles.

some come to the clinic and aspire to grand ethics and clean cycling, but dont practise it.

How much work has Dimspace (Skycyclingfan) put into research finding obscure snippets of info about Armstrong. That IS

THE PAST!!!

why not the present?

And AusCycleFan94 thinks no Australian could ever dope unless they eat tainted beef :rolleyes:
 
Jun 22, 2009
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sashimono said:
Huh? Ashenden is unemployed and he uses a very unexceptional scientific background to seek out publicity and push an agenda. If he has helped cycling, thats awesome, but I expect his celebrity reign will come to an embarassing end at some point.

He makes me cringe because there are so many better people in sports science without bias or agendas who work hard without seeking the limelight and publish their results in peer review journals instead of commercial cycling rags.
hilarious. could you try naming your experts?

ashendon has been published many times and he's a fairly young man. his specialty is blood doping, manipulation, and it's detection. i have a hard time researching those topics without bumping into his work.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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Angliru said:
According to the CN interview with Vayer, it was Vayer alone who contacted Armstrong, not the CCN. Vayer indicated plainly that it was him acting on his own and not in any capacity representing CCN. Ashendon's comments were of the impression that the organization itself initiated contact with Armstrong. There must be more to this than is currently available in the media.
Agree - heres my theory.
I find Vayer meeting PMcQ more peculiar than reaching out to LA. All of CCN appear in agreement to McQuaids removal, so why bother meeting him?
Perhaps that was agreed by CCN, but the LA one was not known (or agreed) by all members.
 
Mar 8, 2010
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sniper said:
Ashenden's decision seems rather premature to me, especially if this was just Vayer acting as an individual.

I'm not completely opposed to the idea of CCN contacting Lance. Lance seems ripe for bus-throw-undery (credits Dear Wiggo). Strike while the iron is still hot, Vayer may have thought.

And yes, the truth could eventually also set Lance free.
His recent interview with CN was like a wind of fresh air. For the first time I saw a glimpse of sincere repentance and self-reflection, even though it were just flashes. I briefly had a feeling that his sworn enemies (Floyd, Paul) must not necessarily remain his enemies till eternity. Of course, still a long way to go. But I'd be willing to welcome a truthful and repentant Lance back into society, provided he rats out Pathetic and Heinous.
+1
Premature was a good choice of word. I was thinking about beleidigt and kindisch.
And happy my thoughts about certain individuals are once more confirmed.

This is one of those points, when true faces are shown.
This is the point when people interested in cleaner cycling can be seperated from people who are still and were always just sitting on the trainwreck of hate, playing cycling-saints as a magic hood to hide the hate.
That threadopening monkey and the rest of his beloved, holy crew are the best example. Anyway, appreciated. :cool:

But more appreciated are those who did really convert into cycling saints by just making sense.
Sadly they are very rare, but always welcome...those converts.

When you like digging in dirt, you have to consider that you will have to work with dirt.
Ashden's main point, which is that he wasn't informed or included well enough, is just pretextual. He wouldn't have cared if it was anyone else.

He reminds me of a gynaecologist who does pick his patients.
 
Apr 20, 2012
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Reading the 'interview' on Armstrong today on CN and on the same day Ashenden quits the CCN when it comes to light Vayer wants to meet Armstrong is quite some timing.

You can't have two captains on one ship I guess. Too much testosterone?

I must say I like them both, both have the same agenda, just an other way of working? Pragmatic versus black/white?
 
Mar 8, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
Any chance that you could put up an English version of your post?
Yes, of course. Especially when it is you that is asking.

beleidigt=huffy

kindisch=infantile

No one is perfect, you know.
In your case, I always wonder if there is any chance that you could post something that is not a question, Doc ? :D
 
Cobblestoned said:
Yes, of course. Especially when it is you that is asking.

beleidigt=huffy

kindisch=infantile

No one is perfect, you know.
In your case, I always wonder if there is any chance that you could post something that is not a question, Doc ? :D
You just have to say the words out loud to understand their meaning......to many of us go with our brains when it is our hearts we should be listening to
 
Jul 15, 2010
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howsteepisit said:
I am thinking that Ashenden is one of those PhD types who do not thrive in situations that require compromise and political operating. He is more of the this is right and that is wrong type of personality. The sphere that CCN works in is a more pragmatic and political system, where your have to give ground to make ground. If thats is close to correct, then MA is better served to remove himself from CCN, and can better serve the battle against drugs in sport from a more outside and consultive position. This in no way to claim that either type of person is good or bad, in fact it takes all types to make the world work.
Based on ?

Man, the interns are being paid a pretty penny to dump on Ashenden in this thread.
 
Jul 28, 2009
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I tend to agree with python. For CCN to meet LA is a pretty odd thing indeed. Hard to fathom, difficult to justify, naive.

If Vayer was acting off his own bat then maybe Ashenden has overreacted but one would assume that he is privy to more information than we are so... We don't know how Vayer actually represented himself to LA.
 
Nov 27, 2012
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Ashenden talks about why he left CCN:

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/13834/Ashenden-speaks-about-decision-to-walk-away-from-Change-Cycling-Now-after-approach-to-Armstrong.aspx

“Armstrong has until February 6th to meet with USADA and make a statement under oath. The situation cannot be any simpler for Armstrong, and his bobbing and weaving of that appointment with USADA is damning. Unless and until he does so, I cannot condone anyone, including Change Cycling Now, who provides him with a platform to whine.

“Therefore, as soon as it came to my attention that people within Change Cycling Now had approached Armstrong, my position within that movement became untenable. I immediately informed the group that I had withdrawn. However I also made it clear to the group that I continued to support what Change Cycling Now is seeking to achieve.”
 
The ONLY organisation Lance should be talking to is USADA - and under oath at that. The group CNN has no business whatsoever meeting with or discussing anything with Lance. Ashenden is quite correct, whoever made the judgement call is well out of order and it appears Asho and others were not consulted.

There has not been a single utterance or action on Lances part from the moment he was charged by USADAthat was not fully scripted and orchestrated by TeamLANCE. Hes not spending millions of dollars on Fabiani et al to grease palms, corrupt politicians, lodge FedCOurt affidavits, or go on #DOPRAH to lie and obfuscate to just shoot from the lip.

It ALL boils down to qui tam - Lance will do ANYTHING to avoid the whistleblower case, or to be exposed to SOL legal ramifications. No doping after 2005 (SOL), not leader of the team, no systematic doping, no contact with Ferrari, no statements in hospital room, no bribing UCI (notice he said the donation was made after 2005 when he had retired), no meeting Lausanne Lab, no positives. As we speak I am in no doubt his lawyers are negotiating with DOJ that because of #DOPRAH he is now unable to get a fair trial as no unbiased jury is available.

As to his credentials - sigh where do these guys come from
 
Jan 30, 2011
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northstar said:
Ashenden talks about why he left CCN:

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/13834/Ashenden-speaks-about-decision-to-walk-away-from-Change-Cycling-Now-after-approach-to-Armstrong.aspx

“Armstrong has until February 6th to meet with USADA and make a statement under oath. The situation cannot be any simpler for Armstrong, and his bobbing and weaving of that appointment with USADA is damning. Unless and until he does so, I cannot condone anyone, including Change Cycling Now, who provides him with a platform to whine.

“Therefore, as soon as it came to my attention that people within Change Cycling Now had approached Armstrong, my position within that movement became untenable. I immediately informed the group that I had withdrawn. However I also made it clear to the group that I continued to support what Change Cycling Now is seeking to achieve.”
Good explanation from him and needless to say I think his opinion of CN would be that it is little more than a soap opera internet site.
 
Dec 27, 2010
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sittingbison said:
The ONLY organisation Lance should be talking to is USADA - and under oath at that. The group CNN has no business whatsoever meeting with or discussing anything with Lance. Ashenden is quite correct, whoever made the judgement call is well out of order and it appears Asho and others were not consulted.

There has not been a single utterance or action on Lances part from the moment he was charged by USADAthat was not fully scripted and orchestrated by TeamLANCE. Hes not spending millions of dollars on Fabiani et al to grease palms, corrupt politicians, lodge FedCOurt affidavits, or go on #DOPRAH to lie and obfuscate to just shoot from the lip.

It ALL boils down to qui tam - Lance will do ANYTHING to avoid the whistleblower case, or to be exposed to SOL legal ramifications. No doping after 2005 (SOL), not leader of the team, no systematic doping, no contact with Ferrari, no statements in hospital room, no bribing UCI (notice he said the donation was made after 2005 when he had retired), no meeting Lausanne Lab, no positives. As we speak I am in no doubt his lawyers are negotiating with DOJ that because of #DOPRAH he is now unable to get a fair trial as no unbiased jury is available.

As to his credentials - sigh where do these guys come from
I agree wholesale.

I get the impression Voyer is rather liking seeing his own name in print.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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will10 said:
I get the impression Voyer is rather liking seeing his own name in print.
It's a shame he's French and we rely on interpreters take on what he said, without seeing the corresponding journo questions.

Because what you suggest is what it sounded like to me also:
1. Pat didn't talk to me 6 years ago - now, no worries. Lemme do some bus-throw-undery with him too, given he's Pariah of the month and it might make me look legit
2. Lance would never have spoken to me, but now I provide, via CCN, a potential for some legitimisation of Lance, so he's prepared to talk to me.

Even if he's approaching people as an individual, it's patently clear he is a serious stakeholder in CCN, and that's the schtick people are aiming to rub off on them when they agree to talk to him.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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will10 said:
I agree wholesale.

I get the impression Voyer is rather liking seeing his own name in print.
Well, if Vayer is looking for publicity, it doesnt appear to have worked as you spelled his name wrong ;)
Also, his meetings or attempted meetings were done privately.

Dear Wiggo said:
It's a shame he's French and we rely on interpreters take on what he said, without seeing the corresponding journo questions.

Because what you suggest is what it sounded like to me also:
1. Pat didn't talk to me 6 years ago - now, no worries. Lemme do some bus-throw-undery with him too, given he's Pariah of the month and it might make me look legit
2. Lance would never have spoken to me, but now I provide, via CCN, a potential for some legitimisation of Lance, so he's prepared to talk to me.

Even if he's approaching people as an individual, it's patently clear he is a serious stakeholder in CCN, and that's the schtick people are aiming to rub off on them when they agree to talk to him.
Now ask yourself why he became a "serious stakeholder" (whatever that is) in CCN.

They didn't draw his name out of a hat - he is and has been at the forefront of anti-doping in France for a long time now. He is their version of Ashenden ...(although he is also nothing like Ashenden).
Again, I don't have a problem with meetings like this, they are often necessary to get through an impasse, which LA v USADA appears to be.
However, I can also understand that Ashenden would not want to be associated with any meeting.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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^ agreed.

It is noteworthy that Ashenden immediately stressed his choice is irreversable. It seems he was really offended by the course of events.
 
Jul 6, 2010
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In all honesty, I am utterly gutted that this thread has gone cold already.

It seems that people would rather gossip about Sir Sideburns and his questionable team dynamics rather than get into the niceties of how the man who was working for an EPO test, a decade ahead of it's media cache, decided to get the f*ck out of a process that has been manipulated by an utterly corrupt UCI.

I hate to say it, but shame on The Clinic.

I feel that all those with insight have gone to the ****ters, and thank f*cking jesus they have.

It's much easier to block the irritating r*tards that way.

Wow, that was cranky...

Shrimp, out!
 
Jul 6, 2010
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Misspelled Twitter as Tw@tter, and it got changed by the increasingly restrictive auto-sensor. Sorry.

Hey, how about dodging d*uchy interviews, and we all just tweet?

This place is starting to suck!
 
will10 said:
I agree wholesale.

I get the impression Voyer is rather liking seeing his own name in print.
I'm inclined to agree. The fact that he mentions that Armstrong had denied him interview requests before and with the combination of Armstrong's downfall and Vayer's apparent position of relative influence in CCN, he now is open to a dialogue with Vayer, leads me to believe that he has less than simple noble intentions at heart. Add to that his seeming boasting of his meeting with McQuaid where he feels the need to stick out his chest and mention that he called McQuaid an "idiot" seems to be more about him patting himself on the back than actually doing anything constructive for the sport.
He needs to step back and reevaluate what he is actually trying to accomplish.
 

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