Dumoulin.

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Apr 20, 2012
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WheelofGear said:
Dumoulin was one of the best riders in the first week. Why don't we talk about Aru and Landa's sudden mega-improvement after the rest day?

Tom Dumoulin at least deserves the benefit of the doubt. He wasn't flying up the climb like Aru and Landa.


Antoine VAYER @festinaboy
Radar 2 : ARU Andorre, 400 watts étalon, 27min28s, 5,8 w/kg. Normal. Froome, Quintana, Valverde, far from their level. What's up ?

@lapreuvepar21
@festinaboy really hard stage also with colle della Gallina climbed at 387 watts étalon by Astana group
 
Aug 11, 2012
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The Principal Sheep said:
I have no issue with Dumoulin’s climbing style or that other’s will implode by over-exerting leaving him to profit, but this is nothing new but his sporadic success is and grows all the more questionable if he is able to maintain it throughout the vuelta.
Nobody said it was new, you start a new discussion now.

Whether Tom Dumoulin's success is questionable is why this thread was started in the first place. You agree or disagree and people provide arguments for that.
 
Apr 2, 2013
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"Jeff"":2gabrh9e][quote="The Principal Sheep said:
I have no issue with Dumoulin’s climbing style or that other’s will implode by over-exerting leaving him to profit, but this is nothing new but his sporadic success is and grows all the more questionable if he is able to maintain it throughout the vuelta.
Nobody said it was new, you start a new discussion now.

Whether Tom Dumoulin's success is questionable is why this thread was started in the first place. You agree or disagree and people provide arguments for that.[/quote]

Why start a new discussion? I don't find Dumuolin's riding style to be an explanation for his new success which i find surprising where as you seem to find the vuelta to be a magical land where surprising things happen without suspicion.
 
May 13, 2015
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Fearless Greg Lemond said:
WheelofGear said:
Dumoulin was one of the best riders in the first week. Why don't we talk about Aru and Landa's sudden mega-improvement after the rest day?

Tom Dumoulin at least deserves the benefit of the doubt. He wasn't flying up the climb like Aru and Landa.


Antoine VAYER @festinaboy
Radar 2 : ARU Andorre, 400 watts étalon, 27min28s, 5,8 w/kg. Normal. Froome, Quintana, Valverde, far from their level. What's up ?

@lapreuvepar21
@festinaboy really hard stage also with colle della Gallina climbed at 387 watts étalon by Astana group
Yeah, but that was after 5 very hard climbs. 5/8 w/kg is high number after having climbed cat 1 and HC's all day. About equal to Porte/Quintana on Saint Martin and not very far from Froome who did 6.1 or 6.2 w/kg on a stage that only had one MTF.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Dekker_Tifosi said:
Dumoulin had 377W average on the final climb. They spoke to his trainer about his weight which is 70kg at the moment
Thats 5,4 w/kg on the final climb.

Doesn't seem super special. More other riders not getting their level
dumoulinrouge weighed 71 in 2014.
so no drastic weight loss.
anybody know his weight before that?
 
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Dekker_Tifosi said:
Dumoulin had 377W average on the final climb. They spoke to his trainer about his weight which is 70kg at the moment
Thats 5,4 w/kg on the final climb.

Doesn't seem super special. More other riders not getting their level
That is true, but it is worth mentioning the whole stage - it was really hard. That would take out some of the potential w/kg for the final climb. I think that is very good considering the stage at hand. Aru, Purito, Morenoand Landa did better but they are pure climbers.
 
@Dekker_Tifosi:
It isnt surprising that someone with the dimensions of dumoulin can fight for a gt, its more the fact that he was nowhere near this level in the past. I know that there were signs like the Rettenbachferner mtf but that performance was still far worse than the performance of the last few days.
 
Aug 11, 2012
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Gigs_98 said:
@Dekker_Tifosi:
It isnt surprising that someone with the dimensions of dumoulin can fight for a gt, its more the fact that he was nowhere near this level in the past. I know that there were signs like the Rettenbachferner mtf but that performance was still far worse than the performance of the last few days.
Let me see.

Eric Boyer, Anselmo Fuerte, Raul Alcala, Denis Roux, Christian Seznec, Michel Laurent, Joseph Fuchs, Pedro Torres, Pedro Munoz...and I can go on and on and on and on...

Riders who had a rough start but eventually had (some) success in GT's.

Some here are unbearable. As if you cant improve during your career. What a total nonsense. At least come up with something better.

Dumoulin started in the Tour a couple of times and finished top 40 without even trying to finish high in the overall standings. Now years later, he's doing much better with much lesser competition in the Vuelta. Wow big deal.
 
I'll repeat what I once said about Amador. Top40, or even top30 for that matter, is no GT palmares whatsoever. Most of the riders outside the top40 are sprinters, domestiques, riders who've been ill or injured throughout the race or who've simply softpedalled every single MTF. Most of the times top40 means being 2 hours down the leader. Now he's 30 seconds down. And this Vuelta has better competition than last year Tour anyway.
 
Aug 11, 2012
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SafeBet said:
I'll repeat what I once said about Amador. Top40, or even top30 for that matter, is no GT palmares whatsoever. Most of the riders outside the top40 are sprinters, domestiques, riders who've been ill or injured throughout the race or who've simply softpedalled every single MTF. Most of the times top40 means being 2 hours down the leader. Now he's 30 seconds down. And this Vuelta has better competition than last year Tour anyway.
So much wrong in this post. You act like its rocket science. This might be the case with a doped Amador and many others but you have an even larger group who tell otherwise.

'This Vuelta has better competition than last year Tour anyway.'

Is the icing on the cake...not sure what to say there...
 
Oct 6, 2009
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Rory Sutherland, during an interview on the first rest day:
With the type of first week we’ve had in this Vuelta, we haven’t seen the climbs that Nairo can really go well. We haven’t seen the long climbs in the Pyrénées or Alps so far. We’ve had these shorter, 11 to 15-minute power efforts. With a bigger weight, you can power up those climbs, so that’s why we’ve guys like Dumoulin and Roche going well. Maybe Dumoulin can hold power for 10 to 12 minutes, but it will be a different story when you have to hold power for 20 to 30 minutes per climb, and do that two or three times in a stage. No one knows how they’re going to do after the Tour. The goal to win is there. Within the team, the tension is growing, but in a good way. Everyone is confident. It’s an unknown, but that’s the case of every team.
Incidentally he also said this:
Some people even say it looks boring, but I can guarantee you it’s not easy. It’s been a very hard-fought race so far. And from what we’ve seen, it’s been an unusual Vuelta, with so many guys crashing out with big crashes and massive pileups. Like in stage 2, when Nibali went down just because someone in front of you clips a wheel. The problem was that everyone was going 70kph. The Vuelta seems to be changing over the past four or five years. There are no more “tranquilo” stages anymore. When I went to my first Giro back in 2005, the break would go away, and we would just roll along easy for three hours. That is certainly not the case at the Vuelta.
http://velonews.competitor.com/2015/09/news/road/qa-inside-movistar-with-rory-sutherland_383499
 
"Jeff"":3m5mtkhd][quote="Gigs_98 said:
@Dekker_Tifosi:
It isnt surprising that someone with the dimensions of dumoulin can fight for a gt, its more the fact that he was nowhere near this level in the past. I know that there were signs like the Rettenbachferner mtf but that performance was still far worse than the performance of the last few days.
Let me see.

Eric Boyer, Anselmo Fuerte, Raul Alcala, Denis Roux, Christian Seznec, Michel Laurent, Joseph Fuchs, Pedro Torres, Pedro Munoz...and I can go on and on and on and on...

Riders who had a rough start but eventually had (some) success in GT's.

Some here are unbearable. As if you cant improve during your career. What a total nonsense. At least come up with something better.

Dumoulin started in the Tour a couple of times and finished top 40 without even trying to finish high in the overall standings. Now years later, he's doing much better with much lesser competition in the Vuelta. Wow big deal.[/quote]
The other members are making better point that you are anyway. Even if you are mocking them I like their argument better.

In my opinion I am going to wait until the end of the Vuelta to build a better idea of his performance. Even after that, I'll probably wait for a second GT in which he performs consistently. Having said that his performance has been very good so far. Better than "expected".
 
Aug 11, 2012
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Escarabajo said:
"Jeff"":2858qzxn][quote="Gigs_98 said:
@Dekker_Tifosi:
It isnt surprising that someone with the dimensions of dumoulin can fight for a gt, its more the fact that he was nowhere near this level in the past. I know that there were signs like the Rettenbachferner mtf but that performance was still far worse than the performance of the last few days.
Let me see.

Eric Boyer, Anselmo Fuerte, Raul Alcala, Denis Roux, Christian Seznec, Michel Laurent, Joseph Fuchs, Pedro Torres, Pedro Munoz...and I can go on and on and on and on...

Riders who had a rough start but eventually had (some) success in GT's.

Some here are unbearable. As if you cant improve during your career. What a total nonsense. At least come up with something better.

Dumoulin started in the Tour a couple of times and finished top 40 without even trying to finish high in the overall standings. Now years later, he's doing much better with much lesser competition in the Vuelta. Wow big deal.
The other members are making better point that you are anyway. Even if you are mocking them I like their argument better.

In my opinion I am going to wait until the end of the Vuelta to build a better idea of his performance. Even after that, I'll probably wait for a second GT in which he performs consistently. Having said that his performance has been very good so far. Better than "expected".[/quote]Yes but you are one of the last persons that would agree with me anyway. You draw your own drawn conclusions without arguments.

So no hard feelings there.
 
"Jeff"":2z500qd3][quote="Gigs_98 said:
@Dekker_Tifosi:
It isnt surprising that someone with the dimensions of dumoulin can fight for a gt, its more the fact that he was nowhere near this level in the past. I know that there were signs like the Rettenbachferner mtf but that performance was still far worse than the performance of the last few days.
Let me see.

Eric Boyer, Anselmo Fuerte, Raul Alcala, Denis Roux, Christian Seznec, Michel Laurent, Joseph Fuchs, Pedro Torres, Pedro Munoz...and I can go on and on and on and on...

Riders who had a rough start but eventually had (some) success in GT's.

Some here are unbearable. As if you cant improve during your career. What a total nonsense. At least come up with something better.

Dumoulin started in the Tour a couple of times and finished top 40 without even trying to finish high in the overall standings. Now years later, he's doing much better with much lesser competition in the Vuelta. Wow big deal.[/quote]
You know who was 42nd in the tour 2012? Sagan, yes the sagan who is a sprinter? Should I expect him to win next years vuelta?
But of course its completely normal that he beats Purito and Froome in an uphill sprint on a 1st category climb and that he time trials up a climb in Andorra after three 1st and one ESP climb, so fast that Valverde drops without an attack. Completely normal.
your list of other cyclists is interesting too. I am not sure but the time in which they rode was the cleanest era of cycling, right? There is also another classic specialist who suddenly became a good gc rider, who comes to my mind, called Armstrong. You see, clean as ***
 
Aug 11, 2012
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Jagartrott said:
If Dumoulin wouldn't have been Dutch, Jeff, would you defend him so vigorously?
Or that blonde Dutch sprinter in the athletics thread?
You know Jagartrott. If I hadnt listed that I am from Holland, nobody would call me out on that either. I am not defending TD. I am against dumb arguments. If you think Dumoulin is not natural, hey be my guest. You wont see me quote those posts.

Dumoulin is a '90 born and became proffesional at a very early age. Most dont even turn pro at age 23. TD is 24 and soon 25. If I read stuff that he has never done anything special in a GT and suddenly now he's good, that he's built like Miguel Indurain and whatever more. Than I can only say, please go away and choose another sport because you know nothing about cycling. It seems like there a bunch of people here, who just started watching cycling in this new decade.
 
Apr 20, 2012
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"Jeff"":lw49s1yc][quote="Jagartrott said:
If Dumoulin wouldn't have been Dutch, Jeff, would you defend him so vigorously?
Or that blonde Dutch sprinter in the athletics thread?
You know Jagartrott. If I hadnt listed that I am from Holland, nobody would call me out on that either. I am not defending TD. I am against dumb arguments. If you think Dumoulin is not natural, hey be my guest. You wont see me quote those posts.

Dumoulin is a '90 born and became proffesional at a very early age. Most dont even turn pro at age 23. TD is 24 and soon 25. If I read stuff that he has never done anything special in a GT and suddenly now he's good, that he's built like Miguel Indurain and whatever more. Than I can only say, please go away and choose another sport because you know nothing about cycling. It seems like there a bunch of people here, who just started watching cycling in this new decade.[/quote]Hey Jeff, I am from Holland too and me too doesnt like stupid conclusions, yet, I have some problems seeing Tom surviving stage 11 of the Vuelta. I digged the stage win climb as a one of but stage 11 was a bit much.

And yes, you and some other Dutch chauvinists are being chauvinistic. If you dont like that judgement you should look into the mirror, deeply.

On Dumoulin: he is a very talented bike rider, a time trialler supreme. He has done EXTREMELY well in the first two weeks of this Vuelta, suspiciously well. I hope he cracks in the third week to be frank. Because if he isnt he is going to be the successor to good old Joopie.

And, that would be very suspicious in my book. Even more than he is now with his 68 kg, how will his TT go with the lesser weight?
 
Aug 11, 2012
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Fearless Greg Lemond said:
"Jeff"":cza00rvn][quote="Jagartrott said:
If Dumoulin wouldn't have been Dutch, Jeff, would you defend him so vigorously?
Or that blonde Dutch sprinter in the athletics thread?
You know Jagartrott. If I hadnt listed that I am from Holland, nobody would call me out on that either. I am not defending TD. I am against dumb arguments. If you think Dumoulin is not natural, hey be my guest. You wont see me quote those posts.

Dumoulin is a '90 born and became proffesional at a very early age. Most dont even turn pro at age 23. TD is 24 and soon 25. If I read stuff that he has never done anything special in a GT and suddenly now he's good, that he's built like Miguel Indurain and whatever more. Than I can only say, please go away and choose another sport because you know nothing about cycling. It seems like there a bunch of people here, who just started watching cycling in this new decade.
Hey Jeff, I am from Holland too and me too doesnt like stupid conclusions, yet, I have some problems seeing Tom surviving stage 11 of the Vuelta. I digged the stage win climb as a one of but stage 11 was a bit much.

And yes, you and some other Dutch chauvinists are being chauvinistic. If you dont like that judgement you should look into the mirror, deeply.

On Dumoulin: he is a very talented bike rider, a time trialler supreme. He has done EXTREMELY well in the first two weeks of this Vuelta, suspiciously well. I hope he cracks in the third week to be frank. Because if he isnt he is going to be the successor to good old Joopie.

And, that would be very suspicious in my book. Even more than he is now with his 68 kg, how will his TT go with the lesser weight?[/quote]Obviously I am more interested to respond in this topic than with for instance Andrey Amador in this years Giro. I could make the same arguments with any other rider with a similar career path.

Its a pity already that you hope he cracks in the 3rd week, just to feel comfortable.
 
Re: Re:

"Jeff"":2n4cynx4][quote="Jagartrott said:
If Dumoulin wouldn't have been Dutch, Jeff, would you defend him so vigorously?
Or that blonde Dutch sprinter in the athletics thread?
You know Jagartrott. If I hadnt listed that I am from Holland, nobody would call me out on that either. I am not defending TD. I am against dumb arguments. If you think Dumoulin is not natural, hey be my guest. You wont see me quote those posts.

Dumoulin is a '90 born and became proffesional at a very early age. Most dont even turn pro at age 23. TD is 24 and soon 25. If I read stuff that he has never done anything special in a GT and suddenly now he's good, that he's built like Miguel Indurain and whatever more. Than I can only say, please go away and choose another sport because you know nothing about cycling. It seems like there a bunch of people here, who just started watching cycling in this new decade.[/quote]
I'm not talking about Dumoulin as such, I'm talking about nationalistic feelings possibly affecting judgement.
I read through the athletics thread, and I saw about 3-4 people defending the blonde sprinter, 3 of which were Dutch. I know you cannot answer the question 'would you do the same if she were Russian', but you might want to ask your self if you really are as rational as you claim/think you are.
 
Apr 20, 2012
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[quote=""Jeff"":16yj6jja]Obviously I am more interested to respond in this topic than with for instance Andrey Amador in this years Giro. I could make the same arguments with any other rider with a similar career path.

Its a pity already that you hope he cracks in the 3rd week, just to feel comfortable.[/quote]Like I said I am Dutch too but I dont feel the need to respond at all, why would I? I know is a great rider - less than Poels by the way - and he is now performing incredibly well. I hope he cracks in the third week because I dont believe he is a rider who is able to win a GT withour 'assistence'. Do I have to spell that out?

And again, the TT will be interesting/telling.

On the other hand, I saw that Giant documentary last year, when riders were asking at the team car for caffeine pills. Which are legal nowadays :rolleyes:

I also laughed about Amador at the Giro Jeff; a little too good to believe.
 

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