Dutch champ Clen bust 30 pg/ml - claims Mex beef?

[JMBeaushrimp]

Don't forget bronchodilation and other ensuing niceties...

 

[lean mean &green]

This could also be looked at the opposite way. All of the recent Clenbuterol positives point to the possibility the drug is commonly used by professional riders as a performance enhancer. I believe Contador and others are using the beef defense because there is already some precedent for overturned or reduced suspensions based on this defense.

i think the increased sensitivity of testing has revealed that it's used more than even the experts would have predicted. how common is it? that's hard to say. a few random positives don't portray much of a pattern of contamination or abuse. i wouldn't suspect all of the top riders are on it. it's becoming very easy to detect and it seems that, like with any drug, some users are able to tolerate its side effects better than others.

i'll also add to the discussion that some dopers are really stupid and might begin experimenting with the drug because a high profile case has brought the effectiveness of a substance to their attention. the timeline for the dutch rider seems awfully tight to be a copycat (when did the contador news originally break?) but who knows?

 

[lean mean &green]

I blame WADA for not fixing the detectable limit level. The director of the Cologne lab has said that accidental positives are possible when testing for extremely small amounts. We have reports of widespread contamination in Mexico and China. Instead of being proactive, WADA waited until it became a problem.

The result is that the credibility of anti-doping has been damaged. At the super low detection levels, there will always be athletes claiming that it was contamination. There will be lots of people who believe them. And having athletes who were victims of a screw-job because they ate food in a place like Mexico reinforces people's beliefe that the system is not fair.

WADA releases a prohibited substance list once a year. they don't really make changes on the fly and that's out of necessity. athletes need time to review changes and figure out how they're going to adhere to it. they (athletes) can't be expected to constantly adapt to new rules all throughout the year.

if WADA is to know about contamination then so are athletes and they need to plan accordingly. they are both equally responsible. to go a step further, WADA probably made the right call here. these recent positives are MUCH more likely to be PED use than contamination. we've been over it about a thousand times so i'm not going to dig thru the details again. is there a very slim possibility of contamination? yes. is it likely? no.

 

[Polish]

This could also be looked at the opposite way. All of the recent Clenbuterol positives point to the possibility the drug is commonly used by professional riders as a performance enhancer. I believe Contador and others are using the beef defense because there is already some precedent for overturned or reduced suspensions based on this defense.

Exactly.

Floyd Landis, doping expert who has worked with Mr "Balco" Novitzky, recently acknowledged that Clen use in the Peloton is WIDESPREAD.

But it seems riders are learning from the mistakes of others like Alberto and Rasmussen:

First, blame it on "meat" not "beef". The Beef Lobby is not someone you want to mess with.

Second, it is wise to have a "visting Mexico" alibi ready to use just in case your Clen use is detected. But just make sure you actually visit Mexico and not sneak around in Italy instead lol.

 

[El Pistolero]

This could also be looked at the opposite way. All of the recent Clenbuterol positives point to the possibility the drug is commonly used by professional riders as a performance enhancer. I believe Contador and others are using the beef defense because there is already some precedent for overturned or reduced suspensions based on this defense.

Yes, but you can't say Contador's meat theory is a joke because otherwise more people would test positive for it and then go in another thread and dismiss every athlete that tested positive for Clen. I've seen a lot of people do that here.

 

[BroDeal]

WADA releases a prohibited substance list once a year. they don't really make changes on the fly and that's out of necessity. athletes need time to review changes and figure out how they're going to adhere to it. they (athletes) can't be expected to constantly adapt to new rules all throughout the year.

It really doas not take much foresight to figure out having no limit for a substance that has turned up in food contamination outbreaks for more than a decade and lowering the amount that is detectable ever lower would eventually cause problems with people testing positive for eating ordinary food in certain parts of the world. This is incompetence on WADA's part.

if WADA is to know about contamination then so are athletes and they need to plan accordingly. they are both equally responsible. to go a step further, WADA probably made the right call here. these recent positives are MUCH more likely to be PED use than contamination. we've been over it about a thousand times so i'm not going to dig thru the details again. is there a very slim possibility of contamination? yes. is it likely? no.

Tell that to the athletes who tested positive because they made the irresponsible decision to eat while in Mexico or China. I guess they should have survived solely on Cliff bars and Cytomax while travelling.

 

[flicker]

Yes, but you can't say Contador's meat theory is a joke because otherwise more people would test positive for it and then go in another thread and dismiss every athlete that tested positive for Clen. I've seen a lot of people do that here.

I believe every word Contador has ever said. also GW Bushs. and Lances/

 

[DAOTEC]

latest

Friday 17 December 2010 sponsors Merida bikes int. and Multivan abandon van Houts on the spot

are not going to wait for the B sample and have terminated the contract.

(http://wielerland.nl)

 

[uspostal]

I guess my biggest problem with these guys getting caught is, they never eat this contaminated meat/ chicken / pork or whatever during the off season. Its always just before the season starts or just before a big race. I think cycling needs a zero tolerance policy on drugs, no minium, zero. For the money these guys make, to say 'I didn't know" is just unreal to the average person. If I was making the money AC makes I would make damn sure I knew what everything I ate contained. Why would the 2 time TdF winning cyclist take meat from somebody he didn't know and let his personal chief cook it and feed it to him. I won't take something from somebody I don't know even if the package is still sealed and eat it ??? Its time for these guilty guys to pony up their 2 years and let cycling move on.

 

[lean mean &green]

It really doas not take much foresight to figure out having no limit for a substance that has turned up in food contamination outbreaks for more than a decade and lowering the amount that is detectable ever lower would eventually cause problems with people testing positive for eating ordinary food in certain parts of the world. This is incompetence on WADA's part.

i admit that it would be hard to follow my intermittent posting but i've said WADA should take a hard look at establishing a VERY low threshold for substances like clen. however your statements are hyperbole. we're hardly looking at an epidemic of false positives. labeling WADA as "incompetent" is a stretch.

Tell that to the athletes who tested positive because they made the irresponsible decision to eat while in Mexico or China. I guess they should have survived solely on Cliff bars and Cytomax while travelling.

more hyperbole.

if i were in the same position as the dutch mtb'r traveling to mexico in oct 2010 i'd have been very aware of problems within the mexican food supply. a lot of people, athletes and regular folks alike, seem to fail drug tests taken a short time after returning from mexico. hmmmm.

 

[lean mean &green]

Friday 17 December 2010 sponsors Merida bikes int. and Multivan abandon van Houts on the spot

are not going to wait for the B sample and have terminated the contract.

(http://wielerland.nl)

if this is confirmed (the link is blocked at my place of employment for some reason), it would be very interesting. didn't he say the purpose of his visit was to meet with sponsors? are they just being knee-jerk or do they know something else? are these the same sponsors or did he make up the whole story to cover for a trip to mexico where presciptions are optional?

 

[Dimtick]

i'll also add to the discussion that some dopers are really stupid and might begin experimenting with the drug because a high profile case has brought the effectiveness of a substance to their attention. the timeline for the dutch rider seems awfully tight to be a copycat (when did the contador news originally break?) but who knows?

I had never thought that there would be copycats but it makes sense. I could see another rider saying "If Contadors using it, it must be good stuff". I find that thought rather disturbing.

 

[scribe]

I had never thought that there would be copycats but it makes sense. I could see another rider saying "If Contadors using it, it must be good stuff". I find that thought rather disturbing.

I'd suspect that use in the peloton is a lot more 'quiet' than years previously with the likes of Landis dropping the bomb on his mates. I doubt clen is a secret though, as it needs to be administered thoughtfully and you can't figure that out with news clippings, but I am sure there are other techniques that might inspire use.

 

[DirtyWorks]

i wouldn't suspect all of the top riders are on it. it's becoming very easy to detect

Landis' comments are about the only way to know how many riders were using clen when the tests were less sensitive. As previously discussed, there is some anecdotal evidence that very valuable testing protocol information is being passed to teams/riders as new tests become available.

For this reason, retesting up to 5-10 years with present-day sanctions after any given year is critical to slowing doping.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Landis' comments are about the only way to know how many riders were using clen when the tests were less sensitive. As previously discussed, there is some anecdotal evidence that very valuable testing protocol information is being passed to teams/riders as new tests become available.

For this reason, retesting up to 5-10 years with present-day sanctions after any given year is critical to slowing doping.

Yipes! That makes me think that all result rosters would be pretty much blank for the last decade.

How about rather than relying on retro testing, they come down hard on the ones that get popped TODAY.

I know that's asking a lot...

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I'd suspect that use in the peloton is a lot more 'quiet' than years previously with the likes of Landis dropping the bomb on his mates. I doubt clen is a secret though, as it needs to be administered thoughtfully and you can't figure that out with news clippings, but I am sure there are other techniques that might inspire use.

I agree and would add that it is much more to the fore as the testing has improved.
The first time I heard of Clenbuterol was when it was part of the stash that Frank Vandenbroucke was caught with when the Police searched his house in 2002.


Here is the head of the WADA accredited Belgian lab on why Clenbuterol is a prohibited substance.

However, Van Eenoo, the head of the Ghent laboratory, said that unlike, for example, the stimulant cocaine clenbuterol broke down very slowly in the body and the effect was long term.

"If I took a lot and you tested me an hour later, I might still have a lot in my system, but if you tested me in four or five days, it might be there in small quantities and you wouldn't know what effect it had had," he said.
"Cocaine is very different, because while it has an enormous immediate effect if you tested me in two days you probably wouldn't detect it

"That's why cocaine is only banned in competition, and why we don't even report it if it's only there in small quantities. Clenbuterol, though, is always prohibited."

 

[Cloxxki]

Dutch MTB'ers have been known to shop for PEDs in the newspaper headlines.
On one hand, it gives me confidence that the suspected team doping of the turn of the millenium has now gone. You could switch teams back then, and next race be at the other, more preferable end of a world cup result sheet.

 

[DAOTEC]

Van Houts' B-sample also pos for Clen

Dutch cycling federation suspends national mountain bike champion

The 26-year-old has said he will fight he charges. “I'm going to do everything I can to prove I am innocent,” he said.

December 23, 10:44 | [http://cyclingnews.com]

 

[sniper]

Dutch cycling federation suspends national mountain bike champion

The 26-year-old has said he will fight he charges. “I'm going to do everything I can to prove I am innocent,” he said.

December 23, 10:44 | [http://cyclingnews.com]

Some difference with how the Spanish Federation was reluctant to suspend Contador, though Contador had more CLEN in his system than Van Houten, and though van Houten has a better excuse (he was in Mexico).

 

[DirtyWorks]

Yipes! That makes me think that all result rosters would be pretty much blank for the last decade.

Yup. At some point, possibly in the back of the peloton, there would be a rider who doesn't get a positive at any given UCI event.

How about rather than relying on retro testing, they come down hard on the ones that get popped TODAY.

I know that's asking a lot...

Retro testing is required. The simple reason is the dopers are **always** ahead of WADA. If you don't retro-test, you get, to some degree, the amount of doping going on now with the bio-passport containing the doping to non-deadly levels.

The immediate effect would be awful for the UCI for a few years. But, after that, the dumb cheaters are the only ones left. This whole policy idea runs antithetical to Pat and Hein's way of living, so it's not going to happen. But, the sport would be a great deal cleaner in a few years.

 

[Cloxxki]

Some difference with how the Spanish Federation was reluctant to suspend Contador, though Contador had more CLEN in his system than Van Houten, and though van Houten has a better excuse (he was in Mexico).

Of course. Spains stole the soccer world cup from us, what's a single MTB rider as a small sacrifice to put a little stick in their frontwheel?
We ought to see a tsunami of latin american athletes being cought for clen. Or is beef not a preferred food for athletes there?

 

[runninboy]

Is it possible that we are all consuming some small amounts of clen without knowing it? In China they will put poison into milk to increase profits, so why not elsewhere? This is the problem with allowing industry to "self-police." They are apt to put profit above all else.

The clen positives are probably doping, but there seem to be a lot of issues with this drug at the moment.

Speaking as someone who raises cattle, this makes no sense.
Firstly the purported advantages of using this drug to fatten cattle are incorrect. it makes the cattle metabolize fat in such a way they actually take longer to feed as they lose weight overall. So spend more money on a drug that causes you to feed the steer longer to get less money....
If you want a leaner steer, don't castrate it. Much cheaper and more effective alternative to drug.
Want a leaner cow? put it solely on grass. Again much cheaper.

HOWEVER if there is clenbuterol found it might be in a sick cow in a third world country such as China or Mexico where someone shoots the drug into a sick cow to save it and the cow doesnt recover and is processed anyway. Countries with strict standards this would be stupid to try as you would easily be caught. But Mexico? give the guy a bottle of beer to look the other way while you draga dead animal into the slaughterhouse...

much more plausible than all this other nonsense

 

[runninboy]

Exactly.

Floyd Landis, doping expert who has worked with Mr "Balco" Novitzky, recently acknowledged that Clen use in the Peloton is WIDESPREAD.

But it seems riders are learning from the mistakes of others like Alberto and Rasmussen:

First, blame it on "meat" not "beef". The Beef Lobby is not someone you want to mess with.

Second, it is wise to have a "visting Mexico" alibi ready to use just in case your Clen use is detected. But just make sure you actually visit Mexico and not sneak around in Italy instead lol.

actually meat might have clenbuterol in it. the advantages for pork would be plausible. pigs are raised in very confined spaces and leaner pork is more profitable. I believe this was the original reason for banning it in livestock. Years ago pork used to be raised in good sized pens or even allowed to roam in a pasture like cattle. Now they squeeze thousands into very small pens in large buildings, and there lack of movement leads to large amounts of fat vs little muscle.