Dutch ex-cycling doctor reveals...

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So. He reads an article about Conconi (hence, perhaps, the confusion over whose blood?). Another report brings to his attention a Dutch blood bank. A bit of practice on himself and - presto! - PDM has a blood doping programme. He gives a cost per bag - can someone confirm the amount? TIA - which helps us put a number on what we typically describe as an "expensive and logistically challenging" practice. When the Dutch blood bank is no longer available he switches to Germany (so Winnen wasn't fully wrong - but I'm not clear on actual dates here). Says blood bags were also used in 89.
 
Let's take a guy who joined the team for those years. Kelly. Kelly wasn't really any better with PDM. So the blood bags don't seem to have done much for him.

Meanwhile, Rooks was clearly much better in 88 than previously....but not so in 89.
 
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[quote=""Jeff"":3vgeg625]
Eddy Bouwmans himself already confessed that he used EPO a few times. Problem for him was, it didnt do him any good.[/quote]

It is a different story here. Bouwmans claimed he discovered EPO in 1994, which means very late after EPO entered the peloton and while it was already widespread. That was also his last year with Post, in the Histor/Novemail year.

The story told by Dr Janssen - if true - dates from the Panasonic years (unless he mixed that up a bit), so between 1990 & 92 and is about blood transfusions and not EPO. It's the most interesting part for me. It means that Panasonic was not totally outclassed by EPO team and had kept sophisticated dope. Should we believe that Post was ahead of Raas in this respect? :p

It's interesting that Janssen followed Rooks and Theunisse defecting from PDM to Panasonic in 1990. Old news but I didn't know it, must confess. I've always thought it was an irony because 1990 is probably the year PDM discovered EPO. So Janssen, Rooks and Theunisse missed the EPO bandwagon.

Staubsauger said: At least now we know for sure that it really wasn't EPO, but only blood transfusions that made Rooks that strong in 1988.

Really, is there anything new here? Steven Rooks admitted to discovering EPO in 1991 just before his comeback at top level with 3rd place at the Worlds. It's been known for 10 years or so. About 5 years ago, it's been known that PDM were flying with blood transfusion until 1989...

Aapjes said: And he actually owns the shirt in which Tommy Simpson died.

What's wrong with that? Thanks for the informative post above though.
 
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GuyIncognito said:
Let's take a guy who joined the team for those years. Kelly. Kelly wasn't really any better with PDM. So the blood bags don't seem to have done much for him.

Meanwhile, Rooks was clearly much better in 88 than previously....but not so in 89.
It's a mistake to believe a) that everyone offered blood accepted and b) everyone was offered.
 
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GuyIncognito said:
Let's take a guy who joined the team for those years. Kelly. Kelly wasn't really any better with PDM. So the blood bags don't seem to have done much for him.

Meanwhile, Rooks was clearly much better in 88 than previously....but not so in 89.

Not really on both account. Kelly found back his old Ardennes legs. Rooks was transformed from Ardennes specialist to climber. By the way, has it been said Kelly got transfused? I'm waiting for concrete evidence.
 
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fmk_RoI said:
GuyIncognito said:
Let's take a guy who joined the team for those years. Kelly. Kelly wasn't really any better with PDM. So the blood bags don't seem to have done much for him.

Meanwhile, Rooks was clearly much better in 88 than previously....but not so in 89.
It's a mistake to believe a) that everyone offered blood accepted and b) everyone was offered.

But Rooks accepted we know that. We don't know if Kelly accepted, sure, but there's no way it wasn't offered to him.

Echoes said:
GuyIncognito said:
Let's take a guy who joined the team for those years. Kelly. Kelly wasn't really any better with PDM. So the blood bags don't seem to have done much for him.

Meanwhile, Rooks was clearly much better in 88 than previously....but not so in 89.

Not really on both account. Kelly found back his old Ardennes legs. Rooks was transformed from Ardennes specialist to climber. By the way, has it been said Kelly got transfused? I'm waiting for concrete evidence.

Kelly hadn't stopped being good in the Ardennes, he was 5th the previous year. He won LBL that year because he went with an early attack that had all the strongest teams represented so the chase wasn't organized.

Rooks, like I said, was much better in 88 and not so in 89. He was not an "Ardennes specialist", he'd been top10 in the Tour
 
The whole interview can be read here (requires registration): https://blendle.com/i/de-volkskrant/bekentenis-van-een-dopingdokter/bnl-vkn-20170909-8621629. EDIT: This link doesn't require registration.

A few things: *Dr Janssen claims to have introduced blood transfusions at PDM after hearing the stories about Moser. He never claims to be the one to introduce them in the peloton. The blood bank charged him 1500 guilders per bag. He froze the blood of several riders, though he only identifies Rooks & Theunisse by name.

*Janssen did blood transfusions in '88 & '89 for PDM and in '90 for Panasonic. He then quit as team doctor for a while, before joining Foreldorado. It's at Foreldorado that he discovered EPO [this most likely happened in '96].

*Janssen introduced a zero-tolerance policy at Vacansoleil in '09. The UCI liked the idea so much that it was part of the reason why VCD got a licence that year. Janssen regularly tested the riders' blood, and also examined potential new recruits' blood values. He "caught" Clement L'hotellerie taking EPO, though Frenchman had already tested positive for MHAA at this point. The team made a deal with L'hotellerie that they wouldn't make the results of the internal controls public if he agreed to leave the team immediately. Janssen also stopped the team from signing Ruben Plaza as the rider was almost certainly on EPO. Team manager Daan Luijkx was annoyed at not being allowed to sign Plaza and Janssen ultimately decided to leave the team. One more potential recruit got a 'code red' after Janssen's departure: Ricardo Ricco, who ended up almost killing himself after a bad transfusion.
 
Apr 21, 2012
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El_ojo_del_Tigre said:
The whole interview can be read here (requires registration): https://blendle.com/i/de-volkskrant/bekentenis-van-een-dopingdokter/bnl-vkn-20170909-8621629?
*Janssen introduced a zero-tolerance policy at Vacansoleil in '09. The UCI liked the idea so much that it was part of the reason why VCD got a licence that year. Janssen regularly tested the riders' blood, and also examined potential new recruits' blood values. He "caught" Clement L'hotellerie taking EPO, though Frenchman had already tested positive for MHAA at this point. The team made a deal with L'hotellerie that they wouldn't make the results of the internal controls public if he agreed to leave the team immediately.
Interesting stuff about Lhotellerie, thanks. Makes even funnier his 2015 statement after he had won the x-country French championship : when asked if people would finally forget about his 2009 positive for methylhexanamine, he answered "I hope so, it's not as if I'd been caught for EPO or testosterone". What.a.***.

Vacansoleil-Lhotellerie.jpg
 
Janssen left Vacansoleil after they crossed a red line regarding the athlete's health when they juiced up Hoogerland for a potential top 10 at the Tour of Spain. The locomotive eventually finished 12th.

Ricco probably was badly advised by the Mapei center. Rumors back then said there was more going on than just him storing his own blood wrongly at his personal fridge behind the scenes.

That's what my memory tells.

Ricco and the locomotive remained pals. Probably already from their junior days!?

Ricco still owns his Vacansoleil Batavia. Rabobank asked Rasmussen to return his yellow Colnago, but he refused to do so!
 
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Gregga said:
El_ojo_del_Tigre said:
The whole interview can be read here (requires registration): https://blendle.com/i/de-volkskrant/bekentenis-van-een-dopingdokter/bnl-vkn-20170909-8621629?
*Janssen introduced a zero-tolerance policy at Vacansoleil in '09. The UCI liked the idea so much that it was part of the reason why VCD got a licence that year. Janssen regularly tested the riders' blood, and also examined potential new recruits' blood values. He "caught" Clement L'hotellerie taking EPO, though Frenchman had already tested positive for MHAA at this point. The team made a deal with L'hotellerie that they wouldn't make the results of the internal controls public if he agreed to leave the team immediately.
Interesting stuff about Lhotellerie, thanks. Makes even funnier his 2015 statement after he had won the x-country French championship : when asked if people would finally forget about his 2009 positive for methylhexanamine, he answered "I hope so, it's not as if I'd been caught for EPO or testosterone". What.a.***.

:lol: What a *** indeed.

There's actually more about L'hotellerie in the interview. The doctor brings him up as an example of a rider the UCI decided to let go when they could've caught him taking EPO.

Janssen's story goes as follows:

Janssen was the team doctor at Skill Shimano in '07. When L'hotellerie joined that team, he told the doctor he was using EPO, testosterone, cortisone & possibly HGH too (Janssen isn't quite sure about that last one). Janssen tells L'hotellerie to knock it off.

The very next season Janssen, who has left Skill to join Vacansoleil by now, sees L'hotellerie win the mountain classification at Paris-Nice.

Immediately afterwards, Janssen's successor at Skill asks the doctor to take a look at L'hotellerie's blood values. Sure enough, the frenchman's obviously using EPO. So Janssen calls Zorzoli and tells him he'll catch L'hotellerie if he tests the rider the next day. The UCI does nothing.
 
Interesting (to me) comment on reddit about this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/peloton/comments/6z11d9/confessions_of_a_doping_doctor_peter_janssen/

So as some of you probably know, I'm from the Netherlands. More specifically, I'm from Deurne, a small village no one's heard of apart from girls who are into horses (there's some sort of big horse training school there) and Dutch pro cyclists. The reason the pros know about Deurne is because of the GP who lived a few doors down from my parents: Dr Peter Janssen, blood doping pioneer and the Netherlands' biggest doping doctor.
I knew him as a GP, but when I started watching lots of cycling my dad pointed out to me that Dr Janssen used to be PDM's doping doctor. Even in the late 90s that was common knowledge. He told me this as a few of the Dutch cyclists we saw on TV on the weekend would show up on our street a few days later. I think it was around '99/'00 that I worked out that they would show up on Thursday evenings during the classics season (usually just one or two of them), and a lot of more them in the lead up to stage races.
He was an official team doctor, and he ran a sports clinic in local hospital, so I didn't think anything of it. I was still young and naive and believed doping was a stupid thing people used to do and I was way too excited to actually see these guys (mostly the Bankgiroloterij team at the time) in real life to put two and two together. It wasn't until a few years later, around the time he was at Vacansoleil and a few riders tested positive, that things really started to click.
It was pretty disillusioning to realise why all those riders I'd been excited about seeing had been just down the road. And just how often they'd been there - doping wasn't a one time mistake, as some riders were making out in their public apologies, it was a well planned programme.
What I didn't put together before (or didn't want to put together), is that I saw Leontien van Moorsel visit his surgery as well. She was my absolute hero at the time. I'd seen her win the world TT title in 1998 in Valkenburg and 4 Olympic medals in Sydney in 2000. So when I was out with my dad walking our dog in early 2001 (on a non-doping evening, so I didn't link her to Dr Janssen) and saw Leontien just walking down the street, I was very excited. I got to meet her very briefly and awkwardly before she and her husband got back into the car and drove off. I can remember the meeting very well as I thought it was awesome, and because my dad, who's a cycling fan as well, seemed weirdly cold to Leontien. I now get he was just a lot smarter than me.
She's had doping accusations hurled at her before, but I didn't want to believe she would dope ("it's different in women's cycling", "they don't even earn enough to afford to dope" etc). Unfortunately, I recognise way too many details in this article to doubt the man. So I'm starting this weekend with another fallen hero :(.
To end on a positive note: I feel a lot better about the time I was walking our dog and she had a bout of horribly smelly explosive diarrhoea all over Dr Janssen's front yard.
 
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GuyIncognito said:
fmk_RoI said:
GuyIncognito said:
Let's take a guy who joined the team for those years. Kelly. Kelly wasn't really any better with PDM. So the blood bags don't seem to have done much for him.

Meanwhile, Rooks was clearly much better in 88 than previously....but not so in 89.
It's a mistake to believe a) that everyone offered blood accepted and b) everyone was offered.

But Rooks accepted we know that. We don't know if Kelly accepted, sure, but there's no way it wasn't offered to him.
Agreed. I'm just trying to make a point about blood transfusions: they weren't like EPO and available to all (see the cost per bag Janssen quotes). So far, from the original Fok revelation, we only have three names for transfusions in PDM. Personally, I would assume that, if offered, Kelly would not refuse (he wasn't scared of needles and you have the whole Intralipid thing). Though he is the type who might balk at the cost.
 
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Echoes said:
Aapjes said: And he actually owns the shirt in which Tommy Simpson died.

What's wrong with that? Thanks for the informative post above though.
I didn't say it was wrong. I just found it interesting.

The soigneur took it from the morgue and gave it to a Dutch sponsor of the Simpson's team. He in turn gave it to his friend, the PR-guy at PDM. That guy got a heart attack and Janssen saved his life. He was grateful and gave the shirt to Janssen.

Simpson's family asked Janssen for it, but he refused.
 
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spalco said:
What a ****, how can you refuse a request like this, especially when you're as dirty as Janssen clearly is?
He does present himself as now opposing doping and he might treasure the shirt as a reminder of what doping can lead to.
 
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GuyIncognito said:
But Rooks accepted we know that. We don't know if Kelly accepted, sure, but there's no way it wasn't offered to him.

According to the Bertus Fok diary of the 1988 Tour of France only Rooks, Theunisse and Muller transfused on that race. So what about other PDM riders on other races?

GuyIncognito said:
Kelly hadn't stopped being good in the Ardennes, he was 5th the previous year. He won LBL that year because he went with an early attack that had all the strongest teams represented so the chase wasn't organized.

Rooks, like I said, was much better in 88 and not so in 89. He was not an "Ardennes specialist", he'd been top10 in the Tour

I missed Kelly's 5th place at the 1988 Liège-Bastogne-Liège, so okay about that point taken. Was rather thinking of the Argentin-Criquielion years when he could not compete with the best, but the first time. However can't we expect a 32/33 year old champion with already many years behind him at that point to be winding down? Normally, he should have been less strong that year than he used to be. To some extent it's true as he lost his World #1 rank but he still won Liège-Bastogne-Liège and the first ever World Cup. Almost got World Champion on a very hilly course. Following years, he would win the Tour of Switzerland for PDM.

I'm less convinced about Rooks though. Rooks once was 9th at the Tour of France, in 1986, I think but in the eighties, a non-GT specialist could do that. Marc Madiot once top10 as well. On the Ardennes Rooks was a lot more consistent. In 1989 Rooks still won a climbing ITT and finished 7th. That was better than anything he did pre-PDM in the mountains.

Aapjes said:
I didn't say it was wrong. I just found it interesting.

Sorry I thought you meant Bouwmans had the Simpson jersey but I see you edited your post. In my opinion Simpson is not really "referential" in terms of doping, even though I agree he doped. There's more to his death than that.

Anyway thanks for sharing.
 
May 26, 2010
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Kelly was old school. Remember how he was one of the last to start using clipless pedals. It is quite possible he was the same with preparation.
 
Im here in Thailand and trying to get Peter for an interview about anything else he wants to talk about.

Do you guys have any questions?

It might be about doping, it might just be about training and a riders health. Whatever he wants to talk about.