Bak was kind of obivious. In his early years he was amazing, winning a lot like avenir. He probably stopped now, as the results most defiantly arent the same.
Staubsauger said: At least now we know for sure that it really wasn't EPO, but only blood transfusions that made Rooks that strong in 1988.
Aapjes said: And he actually owns the shirt in which Tommy Simpson died.
It's a mistake to believe a) that everyone offered blood accepted and b) everyone was offered.GuyIncognito said:Let's take a guy who joined the team for those years. Kelly. Kelly wasn't really any better with PDM. So the blood bags don't seem to have done much for him.
Meanwhile, Rooks was clearly much better in 88 than previously....but not so in 89.
GuyIncognito said:Let's take a guy who joined the team for those years. Kelly. Kelly wasn't really any better with PDM. So the blood bags don't seem to have done much for him.
Meanwhile, Rooks was clearly much better in 88 than previously....but not so in 89.
fmk_RoI said:It's a mistake to believe a) that everyone offered blood accepted and b) everyone was offered.GuyIncognito said:Let's take a guy who joined the team for those years. Kelly. Kelly wasn't really any better with PDM. So the blood bags don't seem to have done much for him.
Meanwhile, Rooks was clearly much better in 88 than previously....but not so in 89.
Echoes said:GuyIncognito said:Let's take a guy who joined the team for those years. Kelly. Kelly wasn't really any better with PDM. So the blood bags don't seem to have done much for him.
Meanwhile, Rooks was clearly much better in 88 than previously....but not so in 89.
Not really on both account. Kelly found back his old Ardennes legs. Rooks was transformed from Ardennes specialist to climber. By the way, has it been said Kelly got transfused? I'm waiting for concrete evidence.
Interesting stuff about Lhotellerie, thanks. Makes even funnier his 2015 statement after he had won the x-country French championship : when asked if people would finally forget about his 2009 positive for methylhexanamine, he answered "I hope so, it's not as if I'd been caught for EPO or testosterone". What.a.***.El_ojo_del_Tigre said:The whole interview can be read here (requires registration): https://blendle.com/i/de-volkskrant/bekentenis-van-een-dopingdokter/bnl-vkn-20170909-8621629?
*Janssen introduced a zero-tolerance policy at Vacansoleil in '09. The UCI liked the idea so much that it was part of the reason why VCD got a licence that year. Janssen regularly tested the riders' blood, and also examined potential new recruits' blood values. He "caught" Clement L'hotellerie taking EPO, though Frenchman had already tested positive for MHAA at this point. The team made a deal with L'hotellerie that they wouldn't make the results of the internal controls public if he agreed to leave the team immediately.
Gregga said:Interesting stuff about Lhotellerie, thanks. Makes even funnier his 2015 statement after he had won the x-country French championship : when asked if people would finally forget about his 2009 positive for methylhexanamine, he answered "I hope so, it's not as if I'd been caught for EPO or testosterone". What.a.***.El_ojo_del_Tigre said:The whole interview can be read here (requires registration): https://blendle.com/i/de-volkskrant/bekentenis-van-een-dopingdokter/bnl-vkn-20170909-8621629?
*Janssen introduced a zero-tolerance policy at Vacansoleil in '09. The UCI liked the idea so much that it was part of the reason why VCD got a licence that year. Janssen regularly tested the riders' blood, and also examined potential new recruits' blood values. He "caught" Clement L'hotellerie taking EPO, though Frenchman had already tested positive for MHAA at this point. The team made a deal with L'hotellerie that they wouldn't make the results of the internal controls public if he agreed to leave the team immediately.
So as some of you probably know, I'm from the Netherlands. More specifically, I'm from Deurne, a small village no one's heard of apart from girls who are into horses (there's some sort of big horse training school there) and Dutch pro cyclists. The reason the pros know about Deurne is because of the GP who lived a few doors down from my parents: Dr Peter Janssen, blood doping pioneer and the Netherlands' biggest doping doctor.
I knew him as a GP, but when I started watching lots of cycling my dad pointed out to me that Dr Janssen used to be PDM's doping doctor. Even in the late 90s that was common knowledge. He told me this as a few of the Dutch cyclists we saw on TV on the weekend would show up on our street a few days later. I think it was around '99/'00 that I worked out that they would show up on Thursday evenings during the classics season (usually just one or two of them), and a lot of more them in the lead up to stage races.
He was an official team doctor, and he ran a sports clinic in local hospital, so I didn't think anything of it. I was still young and naive and believed doping was a stupid thing people used to do and I was way too excited to actually see these guys (mostly the Bankgiroloterij team at the time) in real life to put two and two together. It wasn't until a few years later, around the time he was at Vacansoleil and a few riders tested positive, that things really started to click.
It was pretty disillusioning to realise why all those riders I'd been excited about seeing had been just down the road. And just how often they'd been there - doping wasn't a one time mistake, as some riders were making out in their public apologies, it was a well planned programme.
What I didn't put together before (or didn't want to put together), is that I saw Leontien van Moorsel visit his surgery as well. She was my absolute hero at the time. I'd seen her win the world TT title in 1998 in Valkenburg and 4 Olympic medals in Sydney in 2000. So when I was out with my dad walking our dog in early 2001 (on a non-doping evening, so I didn't link her to Dr Janssen) and saw Leontien just walking down the street, I was very excited. I got to meet her very briefly and awkwardly before she and her husband got back into the car and drove off. I can remember the meeting very well as I thought it was awesome, and because my dad, who's a cycling fan as well, seemed weirdly cold to Leontien. I now get he was just a lot smarter than me.
She's had doping accusations hurled at her before, but I didn't want to believe she would dope ("it's different in women's cycling", "they don't even earn enough to afford to dope" etc). Unfortunately, I recognise way too many details in this article to doubt the man. So I'm starting this weekend with another fallen hero.
To end on a positive note: I feel a lot better about the time I was walking our dog and she had a bout of horribly smelly explosive diarrhoea all over Dr Janssen's front yard.
spalco said:Interesting (to me) comment on reddit about this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/peloton/comments/6z11d9/confessions_of_a_doping_doctor_peter_janssen/
Agreed. I'm just trying to make a point about blood transfusions: they weren't like EPO and available to all (see the cost per bag Janssen quotes). So far, from the original Fok revelation, we only have three names for transfusions in PDM. Personally, I would assume that, if offered, Kelly would not refuse (he wasn't scared of needles and you have the whole Intralipid thing). Though he is the type who might balk at the cost.GuyIncognito said:fmk_RoI said:It's a mistake to believe a) that everyone offered blood accepted and b) everyone was offered.GuyIncognito said:Let's take a guy who joined the team for those years. Kelly. Kelly wasn't really any better with PDM. So the blood bags don't seem to have done much for him.
Meanwhile, Rooks was clearly much better in 88 than previously....but not so in 89.
But Rooks accepted we know that. We don't know if Kelly accepted, sure, but there's no way it wasn't offered to him.
1,500 guilders in 1989 was in the region of GBP 400 or USD 750.El_ojo_del_Tigre said:The blood bank charged him 1500 guilders per bag.
I didn't say it was wrong. I just found it interesting.Echoes said:Aapjes said: And he actually owns the shirt in which Tommy Simpson died.
What's wrong with that? Thanks for the informative post above though.
Aapjes said:Simpson's family asked Janssen for it, but he refused.
He does present himself as now opposing doping and he might treasure the shirt as a reminder of what doping can lead to.spalco said:What a ****, how can you refuse a request like this, especially when you're as dirty as Janssen clearly is?
GuyIncognito said:But Rooks accepted we know that. We don't know if Kelly accepted, sure, but there's no way it wasn't offered to him.
GuyIncognito said:Kelly hadn't stopped being good in the Ardennes, he was 5th the previous year. He won LBL that year because he went with an early attack that had all the strongest teams represented so the chase wasn't organized.
Rooks, like I said, was much better in 88 and not so in 89. He was not an "Ardennes specialist", he'd been top10 in the Tour
Aapjes said:I didn't say it was wrong. I just found it interesting.
IntralipidBenotti69 said:Kelly was old school. Remember how he was one of the last to start using clipless pedals. It is quite possible he was the same with preparation.
Benotti69 said:Kelly was old school. Remember how he was one of the last to start using clipless pedals. It is quite possible he was the same with preparation.