Dutch Olympic Skaters have to be doping

Due to their recent speedskating dominance, is it only me, or are others speculating that the Dutch Olympic Skaters are doping ?

I don't believe its the "untested suits" made by Craft that they wear.

Dutch speedskaters alone have accounted for 21 medals so far.

Netherlands has swept four speedskating events: the men's 500, 5,000 and 10,000 and the women's 1,500. The Dutch have also claimed two medals in another three events, the men's 1,000 and the women's 500 and 1,000, and have won at least one medal in the remaining three events — the women's 500 and 3,000 and the men's 1,500.

The team is managed and sponsored by TVM and we all remember them
leaving cycling due to doping scandals.

Since TVM's involvement with Dutch skaters, their medals have significantly gone up ? :confused:

I wonder if Bjarne has any affiliation to them as well ?

Anyone with any other links to any information?
 
Last week, it was reported that Dutch anti-doping agency didn't test the skaters even once out of competition in the year of the Vancouver Olympics. So basically all tests they had to undergo were known beforehand. The agency says they have started to test out of competition since then but haven't shown evidence to back up this claim yet.

I am not sure whether all skaters are doping, but TVM especially is suspicious. It all started with the extraordinary results of Uytenhaage during the 2002(?) Olympics. Check his results and you will see a performance peak during that Olympics, on the level of Riis in '96 and '97. Since then, TVM is dominating the longer distances, although it is funny to note that since then they also started failing a bit on the Olympics.

It's also interesting, although far from formal proof, to note the interview Dutch coach Anema gave after his skater won the 10km. He told he knew Kramer couldn't surpass Bergsma (the winner, who started before Kramer), unless "Kramer would make another step, which would be a bit rediculous" (free translation). He immediately started to laugh that off and backtracked a bit on that, but I found that remark sort of funny and suspect there is some unknown business behind it.

By the way, doping is not discussed in speed skating. NOS, broadcasting Sochi in the Netherlands, brushes it off routinely whenever it comes up, most notably after the accusation of a Norwegian dude that told the world about the lack of testing of Dutch athletes.
 
Arnout said:
Last week, it was reported that Dutch anti-doping agency didn't test the skaters even once out of competition in the year of the Vancouver Olympics. So basically all tests they had to undergo were known beforehand. The agency says they have started to test out of competition since then but haven't shown evidence to back up this claim yet.
This sounds like the JADCO (Jamaica) model. They test, but the testing is to be sure the athlete never tests positive outside the country. JADCO knew it and would have kept it up except for one of the board members was actually honest and courageous enough to say something.

As a reminder, WADA was created because the IOC could not overcome the doping controversy when it was finally published that national olympic committees were preparing athletes for the games by pre-testing. The preparations went so far as to delay athlete arrival at the Games so as to never test positive.

It appears we're back to that model anyway. You would have to be an idiot not to see how WADA rules enable it.
 
Arnout said:
By the way, doping is not discussed in speed skating. NOS, broadcasting Sochi in the Netherlands, brushes it off routinely whenever it comes up, most notably after the accusation of a Norwegian dude that told the world about the lack of testing of Dutch athletes.
One of the most interesting things about doping and the IOC is the ability for nearly all IOC sports to manage anti-doping controversy so well. Why cycling cannot keep the doping quiet remains a mystery.
 
DirtyWorks said:
One of the most interesting things about doping and the IOC is the ability for nearly all IOC sports to manage anti-doping controversy so well. Why cycling cannot keep the doping quiet remains a mystery.
I'd say it's because cycling is by far the most popular endurance sport. Athletics has been kinda harsh on dopers too in the last decades (certainly compared to a lot of other sports) because it's popular too. Fact of the matter is that 100% of Winter Olympics sports are not popular world wide and possibly excluding hockey, they are pretty much all niche sports in 95% of the world. As a result, no-one cares and so no-one talks about doping in these sports. Often, there is one country that excels at one particular sport (in case of speed skating, The Netherlands). They have a much bigger budget than the other nations and thus have nothing to gain with more controls.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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In the wake of the Sachenbacher positive, german TV did a report today of the ADAMS whereabouts system at Sochi. Half (!!) of the countries (inclusive Germany) do not follow the protocol (speak they completely ignore it).
So much about the most rigouros doping fight ever proclaimed by the IOC before the Olympics...
 
Arnout said:
. Fact of the matter is that 100% of Winter Olympics sports are not popular world wide and possibly excluding hockey, they are pretty much all niche sports in 95% of the world.
Thats true about absolutely every sport with the exception of Association Football and Tennis and maybe car racing

As a result, no-one cares and so no-one talks about doping in these sports.
People care even less about doping in the sports that are famous though
 
The Hitch said:
Thats true about absolutely every sport with the exception of Association Football and Tennis and maybe car racing

People care even less about doping in the sports that are famous though
Yes, that's the most important point really. Sepp Blatter rule all the ****ing way..

On topic, it is pretty easy to figure out what goes on in holland of course.

Also got me to think about the way Noway is totally blind when it comes to their own athletes doping. That applies in cycling and very, very much in those winter disciplines where Norway have been dominating.
 
Mar 31, 2010
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masking_agent said:
Due to their recent speedskating dominance, is it only me, or are others speculating that the Dutch Olympic Skaters are doping ?

I don't believe its the "untested suits" made by Craft that they wear.

Dutch speedskaters alone have accounted for 21 medals so far.

Netherlands has swept four speedskating events: the men's 500, 5,000 and 10,000 and the women's 1,500. The Dutch have also claimed two medals in another three events, the men's 1,000 and the women's 500 and 1,000, and have won at least one medal in the remaining three events — the women's 500 and 3,000 and the men's 1,500.

The team is managed and sponsored by TVM and we all remember them
leaving cycling due to doping scandals.

Since TVM's involvement with Dutch skaters, their medals have significantly gone up ? :confused:

I wonder if Bjarne has any affiliation to them as well ?

Anyone with any other links to any information?
next time you open your mouth, just don't you have no idea what you are talking about. speed skating there is no money to be made yet they are on some advanced doping program? lolz. the fact that lost shorttrackers, skeelerers and marathon skaters immediately dominate long track speed skating tells something of the ridiculously low level speed skating has. it's just that no country in the world cares except the netherlands were every year the competition is incredible, while other countries are happy to just have 1 or 2 competive skaters to qualify for the olympics. the 10 km was dominated by bergsma who comes from bam marathon team who are just amateurs, barely making enough money to do anything.
 
Mar 9, 2012
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Arnout said:
Last week, it was reported that Dutch anti-doping agency didn't test the skaters even once out of competition in the year of the Vancouver Olympics. So basically all tests they had to undergo were known beforehand. The agency says they have started to test out of competition since then but haven't shown evidence to back up this claim yet.
Thats a nice one.:D

Never heard of that in german media before, admitting im only following speed skating at the olympics.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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the fact that the IOC maintains speed skating at the olympics suggests the Dutch have a strong lobby.
speed skating has become quite a farce.
 
What is of more importance is that in the last few years the competition dropped dramatically, many of the foreign stars retired and there was nobody to fill up the gap, except for more Dutch skaters. Besides, we are the only country that puts any serious money into the sport, all the foreigner are left to fend for themselves while the Dutch skaters have all the facilities they could wish for.
 
I'm Dutch, and been active in almost pro sports for a long time
I know a few people who like to do laps on skates. But it's a VERY small sport.

Most of the decent athletes, especially speed skaters, come from rural area's, which are a small part of the country. Compare us to Norway in that sense.

Sure the Dutch have a great lobby. Our king was a long-time IOC member. Nuff said. But we have Verdruggen as well. And some popular (political) figures to lobby from within the national OC.
I can imagine other countries have cut funding since it's no point with the Dutch filling podiums. Only exceptional talents such as Davis can do something against this.

I've not checked times in speed skating in a while, but I remember the 10km having a huge spread in times, even at Worlds and Olympic level. Half a minute between 1st and 12th over 13 minutes. In an air drag dominated sport. Such low ice drag, such high speeds. Imagine the power difference. And you can't call the 12th in the world a sloppy technician.
So the top of the performance pyramid is very pointy, and it sports a Dutch flag. The things I've heard from experienced skaters, legend Gianni Romme was often not to be found for his OOC testing. I think before the 3-strike rule came into play? Or he used it wisely?
Every single sport has a tighter omerta than Cycling, so or the tiny sport of speed skating to have tight lips, not very surprising.
Know this : we have only a bunch of indoor rinks, open most only in winter time, and we got NOT natural ice this winter. And this is not rare. A week, maybe 3, on average. Lots of people who like to do it for leisure, but skate suits are not sold in the number as ski suits in Austria or even Poland. Heck, even skiing is a bigger sport here perhaps, because of all-year indoor skiing.
 
Jan 20, 2013
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Cloxxki said:
I'm Dutch, and been active in almost pro sports for a long time
I know a few people who like to do laps on skates. But it's a VERY small sport.

Most of the decent athletes, especially speed skaters, come from rural area's, which are a small part of the country. Compare us to Norway in that sense.

Sure the Dutch have a great lobby. Our king was a long-time IOC member. Nuff said. But we have Verdruggen as well. And some popular (political) figures to lobby from within the national OC.
I can imagine other countries have cut funding since it's no point with the Dutch filling podiums. Only exceptional talents such as Davis can do something against this.

I've not checked times in speed skating in a while, but I remember the 10km having a huge spread in times, even at Worlds and Olympic level. Half a minute between 1st and 12th over 13 minutes. In an air drag dominated sport. Such low ice drag, such high speeds. Imagine the power difference. And you can't call the 12th in the world a sloppy technician.
So the top of the performance pyramid is very pointy, and it sports a Dutch flag. The things I've heard from experienced skaters, legend Gianni Romme was often not to be found for his OOC testing. I think before the 3-strike rule came into play? Or he used it wisely?
Every single sport has a tighter omerta than Cycling, so or the tiny sport of speed skating to have tight lips, not very surprising.
Know this : we have only a bunch of indoor rinks, open most only in winter time, and we got NOT natural ice this winter. And this is not rare. A week, maybe 3, on average. Lots of people who like to do it for leisure, but skate suits are not sold in the number as ski suits in Austria or even Poland. Heck, even skiing is a bigger sport here perhaps, because of all-year indoor skiing.
Then I guess you would have had a chuckle if you had a chance to hear the Danish commentators talking endlessly about the wild popularity of skating in the Netherlands.

Whatever the case, the few who do are very dedicated and perhaps "dedicated". And it never hurts with some generous state funding which I suspect is plentyful.
 
Clausfarre said:
Then I guess you would have had a chuckle if you had a chance to hear the Danish commentators talking endlessly about the wild popularity of skating in the Netherlands.

Whatever the case, the few who do are very dedicated and perhaps "dedicated". And it never hurts with some generous state funding which I suspect is plentyful.
Dutch cycling fans i talk to outside of here including ones who post here tell me it is pretty big in Netherlands, Shani Davis appears in adverts on tv and he aint even Dutch, they know all the speedskaters even the crappy ones from other countries and watch the whole season. Definately a contender for 2nd most popular sport in the country if not the frontrunner, from what they say.
 
The Hitch said:
Dutch cycling fans i talk to outside of here including ones who post here tell me it is pretty big in Netherlands, Shani Davis appears in adverts on tv and he aint even Dutch, they know all the speedskaters even the crappy ones from other countries and watch the whole season. Definately a contender for 2nd most popular sport in the country if not the frontrunner, from what they say.
:eek::eek: Bigger than football?? That Speed skating, should even be compared to football.. I would doubt that very much. To say the least. From my experience in Holland. But you learn something new every day. ( hopefully)
 
Samson777 said:
:eek::eek: Bigger than football?? That Speed skating, should even be compared to football.. I would doubt that very much. To say the least. From my experience in Holland. But you learn something new every day. ( hopefully)
Definitely a contender for 2nd most popular sport in the country if not the frontrunner.
I said it is a contender and front runner for "2nd most popular sport in the country". I never said it is a contender or frontrunner for 1st, which is obviously football.
 
Jul 6, 2010
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Ryo Hazuki said:
next time you open your mouth, just don't you have no idea what you are talking about. speed skating there is no money to be made yet they are on some advanced doping program? lolz. the fact that lost shorttrackers, skeelerers and marathon skaters immediately dominate long track speed skating tells something of the ridiculously low level speed skating has. it's just that no country in the world cares except the netherlands were every year the competition is incredible, while other countries are happy to just have 1 or 2 competive skaters to qualify for the olympics. the 10 km was dominated by bergsma who comes from bam marathon team who are just amateurs, barely making enough money to do anything.
Take a bit of your own advice.

Top skaters are millionaires and national heroes.
 
Feb 3, 2013
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These results have been a long time coming. It's more that we underperformed at previous Olympics, instead of us overperforming right now. We are the only country in the world with several professional teams, where people can skate fulltime and earn a lot of money, provided you are the best of the best. If you manage that in a niche sport it's not hard to create such a dominance.

It's still a terrible spectator sport, and hardly as popular over here as some people would like you to believe. But everyone loves winners, so as long as they keep winning they can sustain the overinflated amount of attention they recieve I guess
 
There is a difference between it being a popular TV sport and actual being able to round a corner on skates. I am a pro level bike handler, won a medal in XC skiing, skated all my life, but can't round a corner. In a straight line I handle myself, sort of.

Compare out speed skating with Belgium's cyclocross. How many Belgians actually ride XC bikes in fields and forests? A multitude just uses mountainbikes, or going on road rides. But they have only a few world class MTB'ers, and name 3 current Belgium classics winners?
Speed skating and cyclocross are sufficiently small sports or a small country to have a small part of the population obsess over it, and get Olympic medals. In the case of speed skating, for some reason it IS Olympic.
 
The Hitch said:
I said it is a contender and front runner for "2nd most popular sport in the country". I never said it is a contender or frontrunner for 1st, which is obviously football.
Okay, misunderstood then. My bad,

Anyway, of course it is not the best source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport_in_the_Netherlands But wiki suggest it is: 1.Football 2. Field hockey. 3. Volleyball For team sports.

And Tennis, gymnastic, and Golf, when it comes to how many is active in a individual sport. But of course, this is not the same as being a mainstream popular sport, at all.
 
Jan 27, 2010
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classicomano said:
What is of more importance is that in the last few years the competition dropped dramatically, many of the foreign stars retired and there was nobody to fill up the gap, except for more Dutch skaters. Besides, we are the only country that puts any serious money into the sport, all the foreigner are left to fend for themselves while the Dutch skaters have all the facilities they could wish for.
This may be the best post yet.

For example, most would agree that Canada is a "winter" nation. Yet we only have 2 indoor Long tracks (Montreal and Calgary). The 2010 Olympics Indoor Long track facility has been converted to office space, FFS. 1/3 of Canadian popln is in Ontario, geographically very dense within 300Kms, and yet NO covered SS Track. http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/demo02a-eng.htm

We could easily go toe to toe with Holland if we had even 10% of our hockey players, that never made it past Junior B, convert to SS8ing.

Hey, I'm off to call some bureaucrats...

NW
 
Neworld said:
This may be the best post yet.

For example, most would agree that Canada is a "winter" nation. Yet we only have 2 indoor Long tracks (Montreal and Calgary). The 2010 Olympics Indoor Long track facility has been converted to office space, FFS. 1/3 of Canadian popln is in Ontario, geographically very dense within 300Kms, and yet NO covered SS Track. http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/demo02a-eng.htm

We could easily go toe to toe with Holland if we had even 10% of our hockey players, that never made it past Junior B, convert to SS8ing.

Hey, I'm off to call some bureaucrats...

NW
But you will have a brand new world class indoor 250m. timber
cycling track within the year, my friend. Maybe get some of
those ice-hockey players and introduce them to the track...
perhaps another keirin world champion will soon emerge.
 
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