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Eliminate Race Radios?

Should race radio be eliminated, or limited?

  • No. Racing is fine the way it is, and you shouldn't stop technological progress.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

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I'm hoping to start a discussion about race radios. There's been talk in recent months about eliminating them, or limiting their use.

The pros for eliminating them are that the way the current system works, almost everything is monitored and controlled by the team car. Everything from data from riders cyclocomputers, to when to attack, and how much even. Plus the team car monitors race radio, and knows exactly where everyone else is on the course. With no radios, the riders would have to think more on their own, make their own evaluations of others, and their own decisions.

The cons for eliminating them are that much of the race would still likely be determined by the team car, but now the cars would be driving up and down the course more like the old days to talk to the riders, or having a rider drop back to get instructions. Though talk has been made on limiting that action as well.

One alternative is to have one rider only have radio, a team quarterback if you will.

Another alternative is to keep the radios between the team car and the rider, but eliminate the teams from having race radio or broadcast equipment in the car - thus the team won't be able to see on TV or hear on the radio where everyone else is on the course.

There are lots of stories of course about their success, and failure. This CyclingNews link tells a lot.

The new head of ASO says he wants them eliminated, and I tend to agree wit him. What do you think?
 
Apr 12, 2009
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I'd say: riders still have radio, but not from their team car, but an official radio: with official times (instead of the outdated motorcycle system they use now), warnings about dangerous points, etc.
This broadcasted in several languages. (This would only be possible in the bigger races)

1 or 2 radios /team could also be an interesting system...

" keep the radios between the team car and the rider, but eliminate the teams from having race radio or broadcast equipment in the car "
And forbid all cellphone use to?
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Great Poll!!

I'm for total elimination of radios for the riders. It's turned racing into this really predictable menagerie of blah. Over and over again, the early break gets a few minutes on the field, then when the bosses figure out the math to close the gap, the radios start humming for the "real" race to start in the last 30k. Same schit every time. Boring, boring, boring....get rid of 'em!!!!! Instinct is DEAD!:mad:
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Ha, you know it!

At the very most, bring back the air horns that all beep different tunes for each team car which riders can recognize. At the most they can beep out simple instructions. Otherwise, let the riders race their race. Radios have turned the riders into robots.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Ok, ok, all joking aside, I do recognize radios do have their place in the peloton. The pros greatly outweigh the cons when it comes to the 2-way radio, but I would like to see some creative solutions to get rid of the predictability factor.

Maybe something like no radio zones would break up the monotony, and as a result more breakaways and small group splits would have better chance for a win. That's far more exciting than the all-too-typical bunch "reel-in" which is excruciatingly boring.
 
Not sure where I stand on this one, I'd need to give it more thought. I wonder if eliminating radio would decrease the chance of breakaways succeeding? The peloton might be less likely to let people escape if they know they won't have any idea how far up the road the break is.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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I'd like to see race radios eliminated and riders trusting to their own tactical nous but I doubt we'll see the clock entirely turned back. Banning TVs from race cars would be a good start, and the limiting of radio to giving time checks and essential safety information would be another. The best solution might be limiting radios to one per team with the allocation of that radio left to the team. Nothing worse than watching a bunch of riders worriedly muttering into their jerseys when the race winning break goes because they've forgotten how to trust to their own instinct.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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jaylew said:
The peloton might be less likely to let people escape if they know they won't have any idea how far up the road the break is.

I would hope so, that's real racing then. Instead we're almost always watching an afternoon stroll for 100k before any action happens. Plus, the motorcycle with the chalk board is always giving info on split times.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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I agree with Bianchigirl. Mancebo's win in the Tour of California had the exact opposite effect on me compared to Mr. Tibbs: it showed how little tactical nous many riders had when they did not have radio support from the team car. Leipheimer was completely lost and didn't know what to do or how to react. While I think sprinters deserve their day, it does get all too predictable when their teams catch the escape group within minutes/kilometres of the finish line.
 
Mar 12, 2009
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RDV4ROUBAIX said:
...another note on safety, is that the radio has effectively eliminated the need for the team cars to dart in and out of the race trying to get info to the riders as in the past.

Was the point I was going to make, safety is the major concern apparently with team cars in the peleton etc., but no doubt it has affected the unpredictablity of racing.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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I don't see the 2-way radio exiting the peloton. There is just going to have to be a rewriting of the rules to open things up a bit. Hockey is a perfect example. In the last couple years many new rules have changed the game to be more offence oriented, no more 1-0 or 1-2 games, more like 5-3 and 4-6 games thanks to logical reworking of the rules. Same thing could be applied to cycling without completely taking away communication between the riders and the DS.
 
I think the biggest knock against eliminating is having the team car yo-yo up and down the course to talk to the riders. One suggestion as a solution is to limit teams from being able to do this, or force the rides to drop back past the commissioner's car to get to the team car.

I do think something needs to change though. Having everything determined in the team car has eliminated an element of risk that makes the sport exciting and unpredictable.

Hazards can still be relayed to the riders through the official vehicles and race commissioners, who would still have full race radio, TV and other information all along the course. This information could be given to teams as necessary.

Though ultimately I'd like to see them greatly scaled back, or eliminated, I believe the combination of not allowing team cars to have access to TV, broadcast radio, cell phones, or rider data to pass to the riders would be a good start. It would allow riders to communicate with the team car, but the team car wouldn't have all this "secret" information to use to judge when and where to attack. The teams could only ask riders how they feel, or make guesses. But even that might be too much information to give the riders, and too much control in the team car.

I mean, outside of the rare road hazard, needs for water, and reports of injury, or mechanical, how much contact do the riders really, truly need to be in with the team car anyway???
 
Apr 8, 2009
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Bring back the chalk boards

Alpe d'Huez said:
Hazards can still be relayed to the riders through the official vehicles and race commissioners, who would still have full race radio, TV and other information all along the course. This information could be given to teams as necessary.

Though ultimately I'd like to see them greatly scaled back, or eliminated, I believe the combination of not allowing team cars to have access to TV, broadcast radio, cell phones, or rider data to pass to the riders would be a good start. It would allow riders to communicate with the team car, but the team car wouldn't have all this "secret" information to use to judge when and where to attack. The teams could only ask riders how they feel, or make guesses. But even that might be too much information to give the riders, and too much control in the team car.
I agree that race radios have made the 'catch' near the line a bit more frequent, but I am not sure about the merits of banning TV and other communications inside the team cars. There are all sorts of reasons why cell phones should be allowed, and I think banning them would not work. And since most now can pick up TV, then the answer is to somehow limit the comms to the riders. As has been suggested before, maybe only link to one rider, or use the commissaires to communicate, but I am not convinced either way.

There was something nostalgic about the old chalk boards on motorbikes.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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radios

How did we come to believe that radios replace tactical savvy? I think they replaced tactical chaos. In any group of 200 riders there are seldom more than a dozen that have any tactical sense. The same is true for DS in the car. Nor many in the caravan are any better. Since I have on occasion listened to a team radio I'd say most of the activity is rider's needs, Some information and some chatter.
Mostly radios have made the caravans safer and the teams more organized but hardly any smarter.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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RDV4ROUBAIX said:
...another note on safety, is that the radio has effectively eliminated the need for the team cars to dart in and out of the race trying to get info to the riders as in the past.

I was for getting rid of the race radios till I read an interview with a rider and their view of the use of the radios. The riders biggest pro for having them was safety and how it has helped prevent accidents by passing on information on road conditions, alerting riders of an accident, and generally helping them get food/water when they really need it in certain cases where they couldn't for any number of reasons same for any mechanical issue on the bike.

Sure the race is sometimes rather predictable because of them but one thing everyone has to remember we are now in the information age and riders/races also are taking advantage of it whether we like it or not, there is no way to prevent it as anyone can have a cell phone and do the same thing without race radios, cell phones are that small and can be hidden with a hearing aide type speaker. Do we really want to start policing that as well as the current issues being policed? I hope not. TV's, broadcast radios, cell phones in the cars are also a part of life and will continue, I'm sure some DS's might even have a computer to check websites as well for any other posted info, especially on those boring stages in week 2 of the tour. How long till we hear of a rider Tweeting during a race? Its going to happen just you wait and see.

Anyone who rides in big groups has seen the one rider answering their phone, sure its not right or safe but it happens, some people do need to pick it up no matter what anyone's feeling are on the matter. I just want them to fall back, move aside or stop, but they don't always do, what can you do? Well I do start to yell out, "Hey do you want another pitcher of beer!", "Hey do you have any singles, I'm out and there's a new girl coming out!", that gets them to move aside, to the back or stop as they should.

Race radios are not going anywhere anytime soon, just accept it and invest in a jammer :D
 
There was something nostalgic about the old chalk boards on motorbikes.

I think a lot of people believe the same thing.

Somewhat playing devil's advocate with the next points. Bare with me.

How did we come to believe that radios replace tactical savvy? I think they replaced tactical chaos.

What was wrong with tactical chaos in the old days?

ElChingon said:
Race radios are not going anywhere anytime soon, just accept it and invest in a jammer :D

Not according to the ASO. As per my original post, the current head is against them and looking to eliminating them. I like your humor though. :)

Mostly radios have made the caravans safer

But really, how dangerous were they in the old days? I know someone can come up with some examples I suppose, but I'd like to know just how much safer radio has made racing? To we have any real proof of this, or are we just assuming it?

As far as how it's changed, or how much the rider still has to think, as some people are saying or wondering, please read the link in my first page. It talks of several examples over the years on how it's a crutch for riders, and all decisions are often made by the team car, almost to the second. And how the times it didn't work, riders (and often the team in the car) did not know what to do or how to react, they had become so reliant on being able to know where every rider was at any given time on the course through TV and radios. And to me, that's what's making things too predictable and often boring, and why I'd like to see some sort of restrictions placed on them.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Mar 18, 2009
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Alpe, agreed. For example, Bruyneel used to literally tell Armstrong how to ride to the pedal stroke and wasn't alone in that. Whilst I appreciate that the DS and his riders need some form of communication - otherwise, why have the DS there at all? - there aren't many sports where a coach can tell his athletes directly what to do.
 
bianchigirl said:
Alpe, agreed. For example, Bruyneel used to literally tell Armstrong how to ride to the pedal stroke and wasn't alone in that. Whilst I appreciate that the DS and his riders need some form of communication - otherwise, why have the DS there at all? - there aren't many sports where a coach can tell his athletes directly what to do.

To add to the above, I'm sure everyone is familiar with the stage in the 2000 Tour where Pantani went on his epic attack with 100+ km to the finish and a couple of mountain passes to climb. Armstrong contacted Bruyneel and had Bruyneel contact Dr. Ferari for him to make a determination on whether or not Pantani could maintain his pace to the finish. This to me is a perfect example of overkill and supporting evidence why race radio use, especially communication with team vehicles be limited to or eliminated.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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Angliru said:
To add to the above, I'm sure everyone is familiar with the stage in the 2000 Tour where Pantani went on his epic attack with 100+ km to the finish and a couple of mountain passes to climb. Armstrong contacted Bruyneel and had Bruyneel contact Dr. Ferari for him to make a determination on whether or not Pantani could maintain his pace to the finish. This to me is a perfect example of overkill and supporting evidence why race radio use, especially communication with team vehicles be limited to or eliminated.

You mean cell phone use?
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Even though I voted against race radios, I've been on the fence about this because you just can't eliminate all communication between the riders and their respective team cars. There are going to have to be some kind of limitations, or rule changes on communication to open the racing up. I'm going to have to disagree with this comment.

there aren't many sports where a coach can tell his athletes directly what to do.

That is just simply untrue. If anything, it's the exact opposite. Even the most athletically gifted and tactically minded athletes get feedback from the coach while in the game. You look at all the major sports around the world, and coaches can quite effectively get the attention of the athletes in mid play and either yell out instructions to individuals and/or captains on the field or court, or call time out to rehash strategy. Baseball uses its own form of sign language, Motorsports have race radio, except for motorcycle racing. Take for instance Moto GP, where the riders only info on what's happening in the race is their eyes, and a hand held sign showing lap times and time gaps. When is the last time you watched a lackluster performance in Moto GP? It's almost always a good show, even for the non enthusiast. Maybe it is time for cycling to revert back to the chalk time board, I don't know, but somethings gotta change.

If I could change my vote from total elimination of radios, to using test races to figure out what works and what doesn't, I would. To all who are satisfied with the way things are, boredom is not universally accepted by all. How many times do we have to watch a race where for two thirds of the race is spent lollygagging in the main field, then the proverbial "reel-in" happens with 30k to go in a 200k+ race. If I was a sponsor, I'd pull out of cycling not because of simply economic reasons, but the entertainment value has been greatly reduced in part to race radios and the sheer volume of information available to the riders. I for one want to see more splits in the field, more solo attacks, more chances being taken, more drama. It's just not happening on a regular basis these days.