All I ask with the radios is for them to do away with the freaking tape holding in the ear pieces. Really... it's 2009. Is that the best we can do?
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RDV4ROUBAIX said:
Two comments. First, the biggest sport in the world Soccer (Futbol) has very little communication between coach and players during the game. If a player is pulled, he's pulled, so it's not like basketball or hockey where guys run in and out with info. And there are no time outs in soccer. The coach gives them info, yells what he can from the sidelines, but guys just play. Tennis is another sport along those lines.
Second, some sports it doesn't matter a whole lot if the coach can talk to them or not. For example, Tennis again. The coach could tell the player something between plays, but there a zillions of variables that won't matter a whole lot when the ball is in play.
Baseball at bats are often controlled down to the pitch. However, the pitcher still has to use tremendously refined skills to make it, and the batter to hit it.
NFL Football is somewhere between, where the coach sends in plays and the players execute them, but there are a lot of variables there.
To me, cycling is like NFL football. However, if the plays happened much slower, and the coach could yell into the quarterback's helmet to which guys were open. This is my big problem with cycling. There is almost no requirement on the actual riders to make any judgment or decisions on their own. Very little need for the skills of evaluation. This is what leads to no breaks, breaks caught 3k from the finish all the time, and stages where guys are almost always within second of each other.
I'd like someone to look into the 1983 Tour as an example. Stages were determined by minutes, back and forth, not all the riders riding to the final 5k together, then a war of attrition takes over, with seconds shaved off. Back then, there were breaks every day involving leaders, which made for a very fascinating Tour.
I agree to disagree, as I've watched many Futbol matches where coaches were very much involved with directing their players. Either by standing up and yelling, or whenever a certain player cruises by the bench will get an earfull. In comparison to cycling, no other sport has the sheer volume of info going through a radio as F1. After the first few laps of an F1 race, you can pretty much declare the winner and turn off the TV. In a sense, technology is having adverse affects on sports. On the bright side, look at the hockey example, simply enforcing penalties to better affect and a few rule changes have totally opened up the game. Tennis is a great sport, but the most individualistic of all, can't really compare in that regard.
Maybe just the parcours in cycling need to be made tougher and longer like in days past, when men were men and didn't have to rely on the DS barking team orders and dictating a race through every possible iota of info. I think we agree on the point of letting the riders dictate the race.
Maybe just the parcours in cycling need to be made tougher and longer like in days past, when men were men and didn't have to rely on the DS barking team orders and dictating a race through every possible iota of info. I think we agree on the point of letting the riders dictate the race.
The best low tech solution being used is Baseball with their hand signals 
, it maybe low tech but it works and there's even counter signals going on to help trick any signal thieves out there.
Doing away with the race radios will just conjure up other techniques to do the same. A guy posted out on KM X to tell the team some info or something like that, it just makes it more of a logistics nightmare.
, it maybe low tech but it works and there's even counter signals going on to help trick any signal thieves out there.Doing away with the race radios will just conjure up other techniques to do the same. A guy posted out on KM X to tell the team some info or something like that, it just makes it more of a logistics nightmare.
I don't know about that ElChingon. Keep in mind that race radios carried by the riders has only been around for less than 20 years. Before that it wasn't the logistics nightmare that you suggest. If anything the racing was much, much better. Far more attacking back then, nowadays it's wait till the very last moment to make an effort. Boring has hell till the last 30k.
My opinion is a little biased since I favor the mountain goats from South America. I really never watch the flat stages until the last 20 or so Km anyway. So with race radios makes for a more predictable, organize race on the flats until the mountain comes. In the past the South Americans used to loose tons of minutes because the race in the flats were a little more hectic. So now we can potentially fare better.
Second point, I remember Patrocinio Jimenez in the 1983 Tour de France waiting for a wheel change for 15 minutes in the queen mountain stage to Morzine. I think he probably could have fared better in that Tour with race radios.
On the other hand I have been trying to recruit some people to watch cycling, but their response has not been positive because they have the tendency to watch the flat stages first. With the race radios nowadays makes it even worse in the flat stages. So my only hope to recruit people to watch the Tour or the Giro is telling them: "Wait for the Mountains", they will be fun with or without radios. So an idea will be to limit the radio use in the Flat Stages.
Thanks, just my 2 cents.
Second point, I remember Patrocinio Jimenez in the 1983 Tour de France waiting for a wheel change for 15 minutes in the queen mountain stage to Morzine. I think he probably could have fared better in that Tour with race radios.
On the other hand I have been trying to recruit some people to watch cycling, but their response has not been positive because they have the tendency to watch the flat stages first. With the race radios nowadays makes it even worse in the flat stages. So my only hope to recruit people to watch the Tour or the Giro is telling them: "Wait for the Mountains", they will be fun with or without radios. So an idea will be to limit the radio use in the Flat Stages.
Thanks, just my 2 cents.
RDV4ROUBAIX said:
Well excitement can always be generated with mid stage bonuses in the way of time/points/prizes, imagine if you could gain a minute by getting to the bottom before the last climb! You might still be a contender if you don't climb it as fast? Surely modern tech is not going to be pulled because if it is the races according to you all will be on gravel and on single speed bikes of yester year, yielding modern progress of zero. Ergo shifters are about 20 years old so do away with them as well? Come on everyone is just gotta get over it and come up with new modern ways of generating excitement if the current release and catch is not doing it.
That brings up how we view it, would you want to go back to the classic radio broadcast and watch it at one spot or view it on your favorite language web cast? Or TV in HD?
Progress will not stop nor should it. We should instead concentrate how to make the races richer in excitement instead of bagging on progress.
I'm not saying chuck the radios, but revisions in the rules are going to have to be made to open up the racing.
And the notion that I want some kind of devolution of bicycle racing technology is ridiculous. You sound like this guy who tagged along on a group ride with us and was totally put off by going on a gravel section. He said "but I'm only on 23's"...Well, so are the rest of us, don't be a pussy.
And the notion that I want some kind of devolution of bicycle racing technology is ridiculous. You sound like this guy who tagged along on a group ride with us and was totally put off by going on a gravel section. He said "but I'm only on 23's"...Well, so are the rest of us, don't be a pussy.
I'm not saying chuck the radios, but revisions in the rules are going to have to be made to open up the racing, whether it be with communications, or some other aspect.
And the notion that I want some kind of devolution of bicycle racing technology is ridiculous. I would be wasting a lot of time at my job if that was the case. You sound like this guy who tagged along on one of our group rides and complained to no end about trying out gravel sections..."but I'm only on 23's"....yeah, so what. We all are.
And the notion that I want some kind of devolution of bicycle racing technology is ridiculous. I would be wasting a lot of time at my job if that was the case. You sound like this guy who tagged along on one of our group rides and complained to no end about trying out gravel sections..."but I'm only on 23's"....yeah, so what. We all are.
I'm not saying chuck the radios, but revisions in the rules are going to have to be made to open up the racing, whether it be with communications, or some other aspect.
And the notion that I want some kind of devolution of bicycle racing technology is ridiculous. I would be wasting a lot of time at my job if that was the case.
And the notion that I want some kind of devolution of bicycle racing technology is ridiculous. I would be wasting a lot of time at my job if that was the case.
md2020 said:
As far as I know, yes. Any moulded earpiece can become uncomfortable after several hours. The solution is to use a piece smaller than your ear, but of course this then tends to fall out hence the tape. Tape is just a good backup to keep it in place, especially over rough roads.
I think the radios are great from a safety viewpoint. It would be interesting to experiment and see how races would pan out sans radio communication between riders and team cars.
I could see a rider complain but a spectator? How is it affecting a spectator to see the tape holding the ear piece?
Maybe its something people could design on their free time and contribute it to cycling racing so they don't have to see the tape?
Maybe its something people could design on their free time and contribute it to cycling racing so they don't have to see the tape?
Sheltowee said:
For me, it wasn't broken when they had no radios. It's very broken now - but I'm old fashioned that way.
Let's see racing with ambition, instinct and a healthy dose of the unknown. Bet there'd be some right racing then.
Like several have said not having radios would increase the uncertainty and might make the racing less formulaic. I wouldn't be too concerned about general safety issues but would have concerns if it meant teams were trying to communicate directly from their cars...lots of team cars bobbing and weaving around doesn't seem like a step forward.
It would be interesting to see if it was possible to limit use somehow and if this actually changed the way races played out. IMO I am not sure it would make that much difference - I think it is more the case that some teams are just less ambitious and expansive in their racing tactics generally.
It would be interesting to see if it was possible to limit use somehow and if this actually changed the way races played out. IMO I am not sure it would make that much difference - I think it is more the case that some teams are just less ambitious and expansive in their racing tactics generally.
ElChingon said:
Because it's unsightly! Then again, so are helmets for the most part...
Me too I guess. Though I do think it would be best to test limiting their use - no contact from the outside world (TV, broadcast radio, cells, etc.) into the cars. Or some way of limiting what we have now.
Probably true. But we also might see some wild breaks, good and bad, for riders.
What kind of technology are we talking here? What about allowing riders to use helium in tires? What about bikes weighing 5lbs when we get there? What about letting a rider on a long breakaway stop briefly and get an aero bike from the team, the way Boonen switched bikes after the sever cobbles were over in Roubaix?
Speaking of, I'd like to see a TT stage or two here or there whey riders can't use aero bikes, and must ride their road bike. Might be fun to see what happens.
There is a new rule
Which limits the radio power to 5 watts for team radios.
FYI most radios work line of sight and the power just improves penetration not distance. If you can see the place where the rider is you can talk to him. If the rider is on a hilly course and you are in a car mid caravan you might not even be able to talk to the rider only 10 or 20 seconds up the road. The officials and organizer absolutely require repeaters to transmit radio information. Teams don't have repeaters and for the most part their range is merely 2 or 3 Km. Maybe at a flat race like Paris Roubaix they might get 5 to 10 km. In a big race where a double caravan is permitted it is likely the second car cannot talk directly to a rider on anything but a flat course.
I have worked enough races on 10 km circuits where a repeater has failed and I can't talk to the first commissaire from the rear of the peloton. The chief officials car is positioned at the rear of the bunch. There are 3 radios in the car 1 for officials, 1 for radio tour and 1 for information to the radio tour announcer. with repeaters they can all be handheld radios. without repeaters they are only effective for about 2 km or less. I have worked races with 35 watt radios and the coverage is better but only a little without a repeater. In all practicality a car at the rear of the peloton can speak to a rider in the pack. If a breakaway forms there has to be a 30 second gap before a car can go to the break. If a team car goes to the break he usually leaves all his riders alone in the peloton so there has to be a real need to go up there. Big races of category 1 or higher allow 2 cars and even then a break really has to have a chance before a team car goes up and stays. Often calls for food or support must be relayed over the organization channels to get news to the team cars since they are way out of range to call direct. The fact of the matter is riders do make a lot of their own decisions just because they have to.
I also am a radio amateur and I can tell you that with the radio equipment in a riders pocket they are not playing by wire. Most of this debate is pure imagination and romance by people that always believe it was better back in the day. Most of this radio debate is fueled by romantic notions and little actual experience with radio coverage.
Maybe a few of you recall a couple of stages in this years tour of California where the repeater in the airplane could not go up because of weather. The only information was direct and the blackboard. BTW the guy on the black board does not even go to the back of the pack but up the road to the break where he starts a watch and then to the front of the peloton where he show the time to the lead 20 or so riders. That information barely makes it to the team cars even though the riders can tell their DS what was on the black board.
Radios are just another tool to relay information, They make a huge improvement in the safety of rider in the peloton. They simplify the chaos in the caravan and often reduce the stress of flats, mechanicals, and the physical needs of the riders. They do reduce the number of times a director has to come to the rear of the peloton to talk to a rider plus they make it a whole lot easier to get the rider to the directors car.
I have never been a pro rider but I have more than 10 years of pro racing experience and more than 20 years in bike racing. Radios make it safer for everyone. If they ever get banned I can't imagine for very long.
Which limits the radio power to 5 watts for team radios.
FYI most radios work line of sight and the power just improves penetration not distance. If you can see the place where the rider is you can talk to him. If the rider is on a hilly course and you are in a car mid caravan you might not even be able to talk to the rider only 10 or 20 seconds up the road. The officials and organizer absolutely require repeaters to transmit radio information. Teams don't have repeaters and for the most part their range is merely 2 or 3 Km. Maybe at a flat race like Paris Roubaix they might get 5 to 10 km. In a big race where a double caravan is permitted it is likely the second car cannot talk directly to a rider on anything but a flat course.
I have worked enough races on 10 km circuits where a repeater has failed and I can't talk to the first commissaire from the rear of the peloton. The chief officials car is positioned at the rear of the bunch. There are 3 radios in the car 1 for officials, 1 for radio tour and 1 for information to the radio tour announcer. with repeaters they can all be handheld radios. without repeaters they are only effective for about 2 km or less. I have worked races with 35 watt radios and the coverage is better but only a little without a repeater. In all practicality a car at the rear of the peloton can speak to a rider in the pack. If a breakaway forms there has to be a 30 second gap before a car can go to the break. If a team car goes to the break he usually leaves all his riders alone in the peloton so there has to be a real need to go up there. Big races of category 1 or higher allow 2 cars and even then a break really has to have a chance before a team car goes up and stays. Often calls for food or support must be relayed over the organization channels to get news to the team cars since they are way out of range to call direct. The fact of the matter is riders do make a lot of their own decisions just because they have to.
I also am a radio amateur and I can tell you that with the radio equipment in a riders pocket they are not playing by wire. Most of this debate is pure imagination and romance by people that always believe it was better back in the day. Most of this radio debate is fueled by romantic notions and little actual experience with radio coverage.
Maybe a few of you recall a couple of stages in this years tour of California where the repeater in the airplane could not go up because of weather. The only information was direct and the blackboard. BTW the guy on the black board does not even go to the back of the pack but up the road to the break where he starts a watch and then to the front of the peloton where he show the time to the lead 20 or so riders. That information barely makes it to the team cars even though the riders can tell their DS what was on the black board.
Radios are just another tool to relay information, They make a huge improvement in the safety of rider in the peloton. They simplify the chaos in the caravan and often reduce the stress of flats, mechanicals, and the physical needs of the riders. They do reduce the number of times a director has to come to the rear of the peloton to talk to a rider plus they make it a whole lot easier to get the rider to the directors car.
I have never been a pro rider but I have more than 10 years of pro racing experience and more than 20 years in bike racing. Radios make it safer for everyone. If they ever get banned I can't imagine for very long.
I agree with an earlier post about radios from race control to notify of dangerous spots on the road etc...other than that, no radios, leave it up to the riders to take/lose control of a race.
That's a good post Master50, but when you wrote this:
I have to wonder if you followed the link in my original post?
Thank you for the update on the new rule though.
I have to wonder if you followed the link in my original post?
Thank you for the update on the new rule though.
Master50 said:
I don't know. Listening to communications in time trials reminds me of an airplane disaster movie where the flight crew gets wiped out and a completely clueless flight attendent is forced to take the controls as ground control gives step by step instructions about how to land the plane. It is ridiculous.
Ban 'em.
ElChingon said:
Ridiculous argument.
Lots of sports have to impose technology restrictions to prevent the nature of the sport from being changed. It does not mean that everything needs to be frozen at some point in time. A sport should evaluate how new technology affects the sport and decide whether the tech should be disallowed.
Motor sports long ago reached a point where restrictions had to be put in place to maintain the racing.
On the other hand maybe we should not deny the technology of the internal combustion engine to bike racing...
Alpe d'Huez said:
Yes I read it and the infomercial too By the way those Midland radios and for the most part all radios are much less effective once you put the radio in a pocket against the body. Range is hugely diminished. The idea that an GMRS radio has 500 channels is also misconception. They have 22 channels and if you don't turn on the tone (sub channel) it is pretty easy to listen in on another teams conversations. Euro teams favor Alnico radios in the VHF or UHF band. Pro quality and hundreds of frequency possibilities. Some are digital so they can be impossible to monitor.
So many examples in that article could be replaced by the DS came up to me and spoke from the car. For the most part radios are only available Elite riders now so individual tactical training is still available to be taught to Juniors and Espoir riders. You can put me in the radios belong camp.
Alpe d'Huez said:
Exactly! See how short a recovery time Lance has had with medical advancements with his collar bone!
RDV4ROUBAIX said:
so give every team a team motorbike..
im all in favour of ditching them, but it needs to be done sensibly... maybe the organisers of the monuments, or even all the spring classics could stand up and say no radio in the classics.. that would make them more interesting... (not that they are not already)
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