End of taking the High Road?

[Galic Ho]

The revenue is irrelevant. Only the profit matters. How much money can race organizers afford to give to teams without running in the red? If organizing bike races was consistently profitable then we would not have races folding and would have lots of new events being set up to get a piece of the action. Since that does not seem to be true, my guess is that there is very little money on the table that could be given to teams. What could be true is that many races are almost as dependent on sponsorship as teams are. That is certainly true for races in the U.S.

A counter argument is the world championship. The UCI makes a significant amount of its money from the worlds.

I like what you say, but accounting wise, every numerical figure is relevant. Revenue, expenses, profit. All say something and as does their relation to one another. You may be right, but I think Vaughters and Bruyneel may disagree. Weirdly, it's one of the few things they have a point on. Cycling however does need to be more efficient and effective with it's marketing and ability to generate income. A change in the UCI would help IMO.

 

[robtclements]

For someone who is apparently a marketing nightmare he seems to get himself in quite a few advertisments. But then advertising companies know nothing about marketability and are used to throwing money away for no good reason.

Its not the number of endorsements, its how much they bring in for the team. A rider - any rider - could live very well on endorsements which would see his/her team go under

 

[Libertine Seguros]

It isn't that HTC has the best women riding for them, but that HTC had both a mens and a womens team. How many other teams did this? Think about the additional support the HTC women receive that women only teams may not have access to. Do you think there isn't an advantage to being a woman on HTC simply because the team has a mens team, albeit the most successful mens squad on the Pro Tour? I do. Support and equipment wise, I'd easily wager they had a perceived advantage over other womens teams.

HTC did a really good job of making sure their women were at the forefront, including them with the jersey releases and everything. But Cervélo were the same. Both those teams were very good, and it's only really Vaughters' laziness when it comes to the women that has dulled that sense at Garmin-Cervélo.

The following men's teams have women's equivalents at the elite level:
HTC-Highroad
Garmin-Cervélo
Geox-TMC (Diadora-Pasta-Zara)
Farnese Vini-Neri Sottoli (MCipollini-Giambenini)
TopSport Vlaanderen
Omega Pharma-Lotto (Lotto-Honda Team)
Skil-Shimano (Skil-Koga)
MTN
Jamis-Sutter Home p/b Colavita (Colavita-Forno d'Asolo)
Nutrixxion-Sparkasse (Abus-Nutrixxion)

+ at developmental and lower level you have
Rabobank (Rabo Lady Force)
Loborika (Loborika-Favorit)

+ you have the semi-linked through the Fundación Euskadi
Euskaltel-Euskadi (Bizkaia-Durango and Debabarrena-Gipuzkoa)

HTC certainly did one of the best jobs in the sport for promoting women's cycling, but to say that they were the best team simply because of the additional support is an over-simplification I fear. Certainly they and Cervélo were the super-teams in the last couple of years, but I feel that status has been eroded somewhat this year, not least because of the more committed success of specifically female teams such as Nederland Bloeit and Hitec Products.

Nevertheless, promotion-wise HTC continued to be just about the best; Cervélo had been even higher up in my mind prior to this year, but there has been disappointingly little promotion of the women from Garmin's side this year. Cipo has done a reasonable job of including the women in his promotional stuff with Farnese (though with 3 world champions on the side, you'd be a fool not to), but of course Farnese aren't quite at the same level as HTC in the men's game so their promotional materials number far fewer.

 

[King Of The Wolds]

As a cycling enthusiast, I can't see how losing a shed load of money from a major international company can be considered anything other than awful news.

As a Team Highroad admirer and sympathiser, I'm sorry to see them go. Sure, they made some races boring for large parts. But when you have one of the outstanding sprinters in history in your ranks, you build a team around him and make damn sure that the only time he feels the wind is with 200m to go and that he's leading when he does so, at any cost. Any other team would try to do the same. And that stage in the Tour where they had 9 men in a line, peeling off, one by one, was a thing of rare beauty.

As a Cav fan though, if it's true that Stapleton had a sponsor lined up if he could secure Cav's services then this doesn't sit easy with me. Cav's always paid tribute to his team. Would he go elsewhere (and the only possible reason, given the team he has at his disposal, could be $$) knowing that if he did so, some of these people would be out of a job?

 

[goggalor]

As a Team Highroad admirer and sympathiser, I'm sorry to see them go. Sure, they made some races boring for large parts. But when you have one of the outstanding sprinters in history in your ranks, you build a team around him and make damn sure that the only time he feels the wind is with 200m to go and that he's leading when he does so, at any cost. Any other team would try to do the same. And that stage in the Tour where they had 9 men in a line, peeling off, one by one, was a thing of rare beauty.

They didn't just do that with Cav, though. They did it with EBH, Greipel, Goss, Howard, Renshaw... But they took it to the extreme whenever Cav was on the team.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

And that stage in the Tour where they had 9 men in a line, peeling off, one by one, was a thing of rare beauty

The only reason it's so rare is that very few races require 9 riders. When races have 6 riders per team, HTC have 5 leadouts and a sprinter. When races have 8 riders per team, HTC have 7 leadouts and a sprinter. It's what they do.

It's not so rare when you see it in practically any flat race.

 

[MartinGT]

Not sure this has been posted before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&v=lSE0iW61WOo

 

[abbaskip]

The only reason it's so rare is that very few races require 9 riders. When races have 6 riders per team, HTC have 5 leadouts and a sprinter. When races have 8 riders per team, HTC have 7 leadouts and a sprinter. It's what they do.

It's not so rare when you see it in practically any flat race.

I think he is referring to the execution. Saeco and Telekom (when they had Zabel) used to always try to get a lead out train on some of those stages, and it was never executed so well as HTC have done it.

Other teams have tried now too, Sky, Garmin etc. They never do it as well.

It's not just the sheer numbers either. They pick guys that lead to a highly skilled lead out train. Strong and fast.

We haven't really seen that before, and possibly won't see it done so well again.

We will always have trains though, and we'll always have sprints.

 

[spalco]

I like that Aldag is trying to get his support staff cared for as well. -> cyclingnews.

I'm not really a fan of him, but reading things like this makes me appreciate him a lot more.

“My wife thinks I’m totally crazy because she thinks I should be out looking for offers for myself but I think that if the ship goes down then the captain probably shouldn’t jump first. I’ve called people from other teams looking for places for mechanics. Some teams have enquired about me and I’d like to stay in cycling. I realise that it’s never going to be the same but there’s a lot of interesting stuff out there but I don’t know what I want to do and whatever it is I have to be 100 per cent convinced that I want to do it.”

 

[Libertine Seguros]

We haven't really seen that before, and possibly won't see it done so well again.

And it wasn't really welcome, and good riddance to it.

Yes, we will still have trains, and yes, we will still have sprints. Maybe now there will be a bit of variety.

Let's go whistlin' past the graveyard.

 

[Angliru]

I think he is referring to the execution. Saeco and Telekom (when they had Zabel) used to always try to get a lead out train on some of those stages, and it was never executed so well as HTC have done it.

Other teams have tried now too, Sky, Garmin etc. They never do it as well.

It's not just the sheer numbers either. They pick guys that lead to a highly skilled lead out train. Strong and fast.

We haven't really seen that before, and possibly won't see it done so well again.

We will always have trains though, and we'll always have sprints.

Fasso Bortolo was just as impressive and arguably possessed similar or even superior talent in their leadout which included Cancellara, Flecha and I believe Tossato all at service to Petacchi in his prime. Some here are raving about HTC as if they invented the sprint train. Yes it was well oiled and efficient but when you have the dominant sprinter of the moment it's going to look that way. Cipo's train was just as impressive. You're suffering from either selective amnesia or simply you didn't start following the sport until pretty recently.

Edit: Additionally, and not to intentionally minimize Cavendish's accomplishments but his rise came at a time when there has been a decline in the number of truly elite sprinters and/or many of the elite sprinters of the day being past their primes. Not many can argue that Freire, Petacchi, McEwen, Hushovd, O'Grady, Bennati are still at their best. Even Boonen by direct result of a crash caused by Cavendish, has seen better days and has publicly admitted to his fear of the chaos of the pack sprints.

It's often been argued that one's greatness is measured by the level of their competition. Cavendish rise has coincided with the fall of a fine era of sprinters, replaced by the likes of Farrar, Greipel and others. Not exactly a golden age IMO.

 

[LugHugger]

Fasso Bortolo was just as impressive and arguably possessed similar or even superior talent in their leadout which included Cancellara, Flecha and I believe Tossato all at service to Petacchi in his prime. Some here are raving about HTC as if they invented the sprint train. Yes it was well oiled and efficient but when you have the dominant sprinter of the moment it's going to look that way. Cipo's train was just as impressive. You're suffering from either selective amnesia or simply you didn't start following the sport until pretty recently.

Edit: Additionally, and not to intentionally minimize Cavendish's accomplishments but his rise came at a time when there has been a decline in the number of truly elite sprinters and/or many of the elite sprinters of the day being past their primes. Not many can argue that Freire, Petacchi, McEwen, Hushovd, O'Grady, Bennati are still at their best. Even Boonen by direct result of a crash caused by Cavendish, has seen better days and has publicly admitted to his fear of the chaos of the pack sprints.

It's often been argued that one's greatness is measured by the level of their competition. Cavendish rise has coincided with the fall of a fine era of sprinters, replaced by the likes of Farrar, Greipel and others. Not exactly a golden age IMO.

You appear to discount the possibility that Cavendish may just be a totally superior athlete. Tiger Woods and Usain Bolt are just two examples of once in a generation phenoms who simply outclass their opposition.

Imo, to imply that greatness is measured by the quality of those who are inferior is ridiculous. You can only beat what's put in front of you.

It's a shame that we can't compare wattage over the decades to make a more reasonable argument. C'est la vie.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

You appear to discount the possibility that Cavendish may just be a totally superior athlete. Tiger Woods and Usain Bolt are just two examples of once in a generation phenoms who simply outclass their opposition.

Imo, to imply that greatness is measured by the quality of those who are inferior is ridiculous. You can only beat what's put in front of you.

It's a shame that we can't compare wattage over the decades to make a more reasonable argument. C'est la vie.

But the quality of the opposition and the climate of the time shapes the statistics. Reality is hard to judge from statistics.

Was Michael Schumacher really as good as both Senna and Prost put together? I mean really? Of course not. But they were fighting against each other (not to mention other champions like Mansell, Piquet, Lauda and Rosberg), while Schumacher had a long period in the middle of his domination where practically none of the rest of the grid will go down in the folklore of the sport.

It looks likely that Mark Cavendish will break a lot of statistical records. He looks, at least for now, to be on the way to being somebody without equal, an unparalleled level of success in his field. Certainly if Angliru's contention that the strength of the Saeco and Fassa Bortolo trains matches that of HTC, then it could be argued that Cavendish is clearly better than Cipollini and Petacchi on the basis of greater returns from that train. But if you reject Angliru's contention, then you must also reject the hypothesis that all was equal between the three, and re-open the possibility of Petacchi and Cipollini being equally as talented because the train that they benefited from was not as strong as Cavendish's, yet they still managed comparable returns.

My question would be less about the leadout train, but did Saeco and Fassa Bortolo have the strength to hold the break at 3 minutes for 100km, reel them in when it counted and STILL have the whole team lead out?

(of course the other question is, did they value the sprint train so highly as to stick people on the GC podium of a GT, or even the maillot jaune of the freaing TDF, in the leadout train?? Anyone recall, got any footage of Cioni in the '04 Giro leading Petacchi out in week 3 or anything?)

 

[Polish]

Allan Peiper is one of my favorite DS's - hope he signs on with a new Team.

There was an interview with him while he was riding that I found very entertaining.

It was during one of Big Migs victories, and Allan was talking to the motorbike camerman while riding in the peloton as the race was on. He was discussing the tactics of the stage. Very enlightening, articulate, animated, and humorous. Good bike handling too.

He was also wolfing down a sandwich while talking/riding.
Bits of sandwich and what not in and falling out of his grinning mug as he spoke.
Great interview.

Hope he lands a DS job somewhere!

 

[Stingray34]

Yes, I heard Pinotti to Geox.....I really hope that does not happen

He did join T-Mobile/Highroad in 2007 from Saunier Duval...heading home to papa Mauro?

 

[Mambo95]

Allan Peiper is one of my favorite DS's - hope he signs on with a new Team.

It's already been announced that he's joining Garmin.