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DFA123 said:EroicaStradeBianche said:Terrible racing from Movi. They were 5 vs 1 at the foot of the penultimate climb and they paced Roglic almost on the top, surely he was strong but not invincible. They had at least to hit Arrate as hard as possible. Landa went too late for the stage. Mas absurd from the brake. I continue to perceive an enmity between Quintana and Linda, as well as a certain disunity between the Movies. I understand why Unzue forced Don Alejandro to return to the Tour.
Yep, another example from Movistar of how not to use the team effectively. They are like an anti-Quickstep and Landa seems to be adding to the problem, not solving it so far. To not really come close to winning either the GC or a single stage from this race, given the quality of riders they sent, is pretty disappointing.
In fairness to Quintana, he has won two GTs through long range attacks and also triumphed in many WT stage races, so he can't be that hopeless. He's done it largely without the help of his team though, and has let more opportunities pass by because his team didn't seize the initiative early enough in the race, and kept leaving it until the last few days, relying on other riders cracking. A bit like today.Koronin said:DFA123 said:EroicaStradeBianche said:Terrible racing from Movi. They were 5 vs 1 at the foot of the penultimate climb and they paced Roglic almost on the top, surely he was strong but not invincible. They had at least to hit Arrate as hard as possible. Landa went too late for the stage. Mas absurd from the brake. I continue to perceive an enmity between Quintana and Linda, as well as a certain disunity between the Movies. I understand why Unzue forced Don Alejandro to return to the Tour.
Yep, another example from Movistar of how not to use the team effectively. They are like an anti-Quickstep and Landa seems to be adding to the problem, not solving it so far. To not really come close to winning either the GC or a single stage from this race, given the quality of riders they sent, is pretty disappointing.
Actually, I'm going with two race leaders (Landa and Quintana) who haven't got a clue how to read races, although with Landa not understand race tactics and Quintana still not knowing how to use race tactics effectively. I'll give Landa some time to try to learn as he hasn't had many opportunities to be a race leader. However, at this point I doubt these are two things Quintana will ever understand.
DFA123 said:In fairness to Quintana, he has won two GTs through long range attacks and also triumphed in many WT stage races, so he can't be that hopeless. He's done it largely without the help of his team though, and has let more opportunities pass by because his team didn't seize the initiative early enough in the race, and kept leaving it until the last few days, relying on other riders cracking. A bit like today.Koronin said:DFA123 said:EroicaStradeBianche said:Terrible racing from Movi. They were 5 vs 1 at the foot of the penultimate climb and they paced Roglic almost on the top, surely he was strong but not invincible. They had at least to hit Arrate as hard as possible. Landa went too late for the stage. Mas absurd from the brake. I continue to perceive an enmity between Quintana and Linda, as well as a certain disunity between the Movies. I understand why Unzue forced Don Alejandro to return to the Tour.
Yep, another example from Movistar of how not to use the team effectively. They are like an anti-Quickstep and Landa seems to be adding to the problem, not solving it so far. To not really come close to winning either the GC or a single stage from this race, given the quality of riders they sent, is pretty disappointing.
Actually, I'm going with two race leaders (Landa and Quintana) who haven't got a clue how to read races, although with Landa not understand race tactics and Quintana still not knowing how to use race tactics effectively. I'll give Landa some time to try to learn as he hasn't had many opportunities to be a race leader. However, at this point I doubt these are two things Quintana will ever understand.
Landa has never won a stage race at WT and has never really even looked in a position to win one. So I agree it's difficult to rate his tactical ability at the highest level, but right now you can't go with him as leader in the most open Tour de France for 7 years. He's way too unproven and too flaky.
I'm not really sure what you mean here. Aren't they examples of what good tactics are? Responding to race situations by making decisions which maxmize your chances of winning?Koronin said:In fairness to those two GT wins, the Giro he attacked when the race was neutralized and at la Vuelta if Contador doesn't go through the plan he can Valverde came up with before the stage Quintana doesn't win that one.
DFA123 said:I'm not really sure what you mean here. Aren't they examples of what good tactics are? Responding to race situations by making decisions which maxmize your chances of winning?Koronin said:In fairness to those two GT wins, the Giro he attacked when the race was neutralized and at la Vuelta if Contador doesn't go through the plan he can Valverde came up with before the stage Quintana doesn't win that one.
Also I think the role of Contador, and especially Valverde, is very much overplayed in that Formigal stage. It was Quintana who was the one being marked by Sky and the one which managed to get away. And the one who rode the entire last 20km on the front, riding everyone except Brambilla off his wheel on shallow gradients. It was a supreme tactical and physical triumph by Quintana, and it's strange to me how often people try to downplay his role in it.
DFA123 said:I'm not really sure what you mean here. Aren't they examples of what good tactics are? Responding to race situations by making decisions which maxmize your chances of winning?Koronin said:In fairness to those two GT wins, the Giro he attacked when the race was neutralized and at la Vuelta if Contador doesn't go through the plan he can Valverde came up with before the stage Quintana doesn't win that one.
Also I think the role of Contador, and especially Valverde, is very much overplayed in that Formigal stage. It was Quintana who was the one being marked by Sky and the one which managed to get away. And the one who rode the entire last 20km on the front, riding everyone except Brambilla off his wheel on shallow gradients. It was a supreme tactical and physical triumph by Quintana, and it's strange to me how often people try to downplay his role in it.
DFA downplaying Contador's role in the Formigal breakaway and Quintana's eventual victory again, color me surprisedBlanco said:DFA123 said:I'm not really sure what you mean here. Aren't they examples of what good tactics are? Responding to race situations by making decisions which maxmize your chances of winning?Koronin said:In fairness to those two GT wins, the Giro he attacked when the race was neutralized and at la Vuelta if Contador doesn't go through the plan he can Valverde came up with before the stage Quintana doesn't win that one.
Also I think the role of Contador, and especially Valverde, is very much overplayed in that Formigal stage. It was Quintana who was the one being marked by Sky and the one which managed to get away. And the one who rode the entire last 20km on the front, riding everyone except Brambilla off his wheel on shallow gradients. It was a supreme tactical and physical triumph by Quintana, and it's strange to me how often people try to downplay his role in it.
Contador's role is not overplayed at all. He made that break. Without him, Quintana goes nowhere. And he didn't decide anything, he was put there by his team, then Valverde let the gap open and that was it, the break formed. Of course he rode like a true champion later, nothing to downplay there, but I don't think he made any tactical decision while break was forming.
"Alberto and Castroviejo did most of the work in the break itself, but it was Alberto who organised it all, who started it off and it was simply up to us to follow him. He was the one who really dealt with it all," Omar Fraile added to Cyclingnews.
How do you know this was all down to Valverde? It seems a bit far-fetched. You think Valverde masterminded a whole plan from beginning to end of stage, and Quintana was just a puppet carrying it out? How exactly was Valverde telling him how to ride sat in a group 4 minutes behind him?Koronin said:DFA123 said:I'm not really sure what you mean here. Aren't they examples of what good tactics are? Responding to race situations by making decisions which maxmize your chances of winning?Koronin said:In fairness to those two GT wins, the Giro he attacked when the race was neutralized and at la Vuelta if Contador doesn't go through the plan he can Valverde came up with before the stage Quintana doesn't win that one.
Also I think the role of Contador, and especially Valverde, is very much overplayed in that Formigal stage. It was Quintana who was the one being marked by Sky and the one which managed to get away. And the one who rode the entire last 20km on the front, riding everyone except Brambilla off his wheel on shallow gradients. It was a supreme tactical and physical triumph by Quintana, and it's strange to me how often people try to downplay his role in it.
Actually no. In the first one he should not have been allowed to continue the attack and been forced to wait as the race had been neutralized. In the second without the plan Valverde and Contador came up and getting 3 riders per team into that break and Valverde telling Quintana to look for it Quintana doesn't make that and looses the race to Froome. That was yet again Valverde telling Quintana what to look for or what to do. We saw at the Tour when Froome attacked on the downhill Quintana looking around for someone to tell him what to do.
The point is that there seems to be an implication that Quintana did nothing (not by you, as you clearly state ), that he was just gifted a victory by Contador (and now Valverde as well ). Which is nonsense. Quintana was a key part of the move as well, and, as you say, he played the tactics absolutely perfectly in the last 30km to maximize his advantage.Blanco said:DFA123 said:I'm not really sure what you mean here. Aren't they examples of what good tactics are? Responding to race situations by making decisions which maxmize your chances of winning?Koronin said:In fairness to those two GT wins, the Giro he attacked when the race was neutralized and at la Vuelta if Contador doesn't go through the plan he can Valverde came up with before the stage Quintana doesn't win that one.
Also I think the role of Contador, and especially Valverde, is very much overplayed in that Formigal stage. It was Quintana who was the one being marked by Sky and the one which managed to get away. And the one who rode the entire last 20km on the front, riding everyone except Brambilla off his wheel on shallow gradients. It was a supreme tactical and physical triumph by Quintana, and it's strange to me how often people try to downplay his role in it.
Contador's role is not overplayed at all. He made that break. Without him, Quintana goes nowhere. And he didn't decide anything, he was put there by his team, then Valverde let the gap open and that was it, the break formed. Of course he rode like a true champion later, nothing to downplay there, but I don't think he made any tactical decision while break was forming.
EroicaStradeBianche said:Terrible racing from Movi. They were 5 vs 1 at the foot of the penultimate climb and they paced Roglic almost on the top, surely he was strong but not invincible. They had at least to hit Arrate as hard as possible. Landa went too late for the stage. Mas absurd from the brake. I continue to perceive an enmity between Quintana and Linda, as well as a certain disunity between the Movies. I understand why Unzue forced Don Alejandro to return to the Tour.
DFA123 said:How do you know this was all down to Valverde? It seems a bit far-fetched. You think Valverde masterminded a whole plan from beginning to end of stage, and Quintana was just a puppet carrying it out? How exactly was Valverde telling him how to ride sat in a group 4 minutes behind him?Koronin said:DFA123 said:I'm not really sure what you mean here. Aren't they examples of what good tactics are? Responding to race situations by making decisions which maxmize your chances of winning?Koronin said:In fairness to those two GT wins, the Giro he attacked when the race was neutralized and at la Vuelta if Contador doesn't go through the plan he can Valverde came up with before the stage Quintana doesn't win that one.
Also I think the role of Contador, and especially Valverde, is very much overplayed in that Formigal stage. It was Quintana who was the one being marked by Sky and the one which managed to get away. And the one who rode the entire last 20km on the front, riding everyone except Brambilla off his wheel on shallow gradients. It was a supreme tactical and physical triumph by Quintana, and it's strange to me how often people try to downplay his role in it.
Actually no. In the first one he should not have been allowed to continue the attack and been forced to wait as the race had been neutralized. In the second without the plan Valverde and Contador came up and getting 3 riders per team into that break and Valverde telling Quintana to look for it Quintana doesn't make that and looses the race to Froome. That was yet again Valverde telling Quintana what to look for or what to do. We saw at the Tour when Froome attacked on the downhill Quintana looking around for someone to tell him what to do.
I'm not sure what Quintana's reaction on the Peyresourde descent tells us either. Quintana put his domestique on the front (Valverde), but Valverde wasn't strong enough to catch Froome. Of course a 50kg rider is going to look around and ask his heavier domestique to take up the chase if he has one in the group - rather than trying to do it all himself.
In rushing to defend Contador, you've missed the point. Again. Contador was riding to try to finish on the podium (which he ultimately failed to do). He wasn't riding to help Quintana - that was some narrative created later. He needed Quintana in that break as much as, if not more than Quintana needed him. Because Movistar would have shut it down otherwise as race leaders at that point.LaFlorecita said:DFA downplaying Contador's role in the Formigal breakaway and Quintana's eventual victory again, color me surprisedBlanco said:DFA123 said:I'm not really sure what you mean here. Aren't they examples of what good tactics are? Responding to race situations by making decisions which maxmize your chances of winning?Koronin said:In fairness to those two GT wins, the Giro he attacked when the race was neutralized and at la Vuelta if Contador doesn't go through the plan he can Valverde came up with before the stage Quintana doesn't win that one.
Also I think the role of Contador, and especially Valverde, is very much overplayed in that Formigal stage. It was Quintana who was the one being marked by Sky and the one which managed to get away. And the one who rode the entire last 20km on the front, riding everyone except Brambilla off his wheel on shallow gradients. It was a supreme tactical and physical triumph by Quintana, and it's strange to me how often people try to downplay his role in it.
Contador's role is not overplayed at all. He made that break. Without him, Quintana goes nowhere. And he didn't decide anything, he was put there by his team, then Valverde let the gap open and that was it, the break formed. Of course he rode like a true champion later, nothing to downplay there, but I don't think he made any tactical decision while break was forming.
FWIW:
"Alberto and Castroviejo did most of the work in the break itself, but it was Alberto who organised it all, who started it off and it was simply up to us to follow him. He was the one who really dealt with it all," Omar Fraile added to Cyclingnews.
Lequack said:Very nice ending to this race. The whole stage was great to watch.
Some pics from today's stage:
http://www.steephill.tv/2018/vuelta-al-pais-vasco/photos/stage-06/
Right, so every time Quintana's tactics are successful it was because Valverde or Contador came up with a plan, or because the race should have been neutralized. And every time his tactics are unsuccessful it is his own fault?Koronin said:DFA123 said:How do you know this was all down to Valverde? It seems a bit far-fetched. You think Valverde masterminded a whole plan from beginning to end of stage, and Quintana was just a puppet carrying it out? How exactly was Valverde telling him how to ride sat in a group 4 minutes behind him?Koronin said:DFA123 said:I'm not really sure what you mean here. Aren't they examples of what good tactics are? Responding to race situations by making decisions which maxmize your chances of winning?Koronin said:In fairness to those two GT wins, the Giro he attacked when the race was neutralized and at la Vuelta if Contador doesn't go through the plan he can Valverde came up with before the stage Quintana doesn't win that one.
Also I think the role of Contador, and especially Valverde, is very much overplayed in that Formigal stage. It was Quintana who was the one being marked by Sky and the one which managed to get away. And the one who rode the entire last 20km on the front, riding everyone except Brambilla off his wheel on shallow gradients. It was a supreme tactical and physical triumph by Quintana, and it's strange to me how often people try to downplay his role in it.
Actually no. In the first one he should not have been allowed to continue the attack and been forced to wait as the race had been neutralized. In the second without the plan Valverde and Contador came up and getting 3 riders per team into that break and Valverde telling Quintana to look for it Quintana doesn't make that and looses the race to Froome. That was yet again Valverde telling Quintana what to look for or what to do. We saw at the Tour when Froome attacked on the downhill Quintana looking around for someone to tell him what to do.
I'm not sure what Quintana's reaction on the Peyresourde descent tells us either. Quintana put his domestique on the front (Valverde), but Valverde wasn't strong enough to catch Froome. Of course a 50kg rider is going to look around and ask his heavier domestique to take up the chase if he has one in the group - rather than trying to do it all himself.
That would be Valverde and Contador together who came up with the plan. Not like it was the first or last time they came up with a crazy plan in a stage race.
The problem there was Valverde along with Bardet had been DROPPED on that climb and where no where near the front when Froome attacked. It was fully on Quintana (along with BMC) to do the chasing. Quintana should have immediately reacted instead of looking around to be TOLD what to do. Valverde and Bardet were several seconds BEHIND that group and actually caught them on the decent to begin with. So yes that IS on Quintana for not chasing, although you can put that a bit on Porte and VanGarderen as well.
Seems like you are the one missing the point, or you're deliberately misinterpreting my post.DFA123 said:In rushing to defend Contador, you've missed the point. Again. Contador was riding to try to finish on the podium (which he ultimately failed to do). He wasn't riding to help Quintana - that was some narrative created later. He needed Quintana in that break as much as, if not more than Quintana needed him. Because Movistar would have shut it down otherwise as race leaders at that point.LaFlorecita said:DFA downplaying Contador's role in the Formigal breakaway and Quintana's eventual victory again, color me surprisedBlanco said:DFA123 said:I'm not really sure what you mean here. Aren't they examples of what good tactics are? Responding to race situations by making decisions which maxmize your chances of winning?Koronin said:In fairness to those two GT wins, the Giro he attacked when the race was neutralized and at la Vuelta if Contador doesn't go through the plan he can Valverde came up with before the stage Quintana doesn't win that one.
Also I think the role of Contador, and especially Valverde, is very much overplayed in that Formigal stage. It was Quintana who was the one being marked by Sky and the one which managed to get away. And the one who rode the entire last 20km on the front, riding everyone except Brambilla off his wheel on shallow gradients. It was a supreme tactical and physical triumph by Quintana, and it's strange to me how often people try to downplay his role in it.
Contador's role is not overplayed at all. He made that break. Without him, Quintana goes nowhere. And he didn't decide anything, he was put there by his team, then Valverde let the gap open and that was it, the break formed. Of course he rode like a true champion later, nothing to downplay there, but I don't think he made any tactical decision while break was forming.
FWIW:
"Alberto and Castroviejo did most of the work in the break itself, but it was Alberto who organised it all, who started it off and it was simply up to us to follow him. He was the one who really dealt with it all," Omar Fraile added to Cyclingnews.
So it was also Quintana's decision whether or not the break succeeded. He made the tactical decision to follow Contador and work with him, rather than shut it down. And it paid off for him, unlike for Contador.
Right, so every time Quintana's tactics are successful it was because Valverde or Contador came up with a plan, or because the race should have been neutralized. And every time his tactics are unsuccessful it is his own fault?DFA123 said:Koronin said:How do you know this was all down to Valverde? It seems a bit far-fetched. You think Valverde masterminded a whole plan from beginning to end of stage, and Quintana was just a puppet carrying it out? How exactly was Valverde telling him how to ride sat in a group 4 minutes behind him?Koronin said:DFA123 said:I'm not really sure what you mean here. Aren't they examples of what good tactics are? Responding to race situations by making decisions which maxmize your chances of winning?Koronin said:In fairness to those two GT wins, the Giro he attacked when the race was neutralized and at la Vuelta if Contador doesn't go through the plan he can Valverde came up with before the stage Quintana doesn't win that one.
Also I think the role of Contador, and especially Valverde, is very much overplayed in that Formigal stage. It was Quintana who was the one being marked by Sky and the one which managed to get away. And the one who rode the entire last 20km on the front, riding everyone except Brambilla off his wheel on shallow gradients. It was a supreme tactical and physical triumph by Quintana, and it's strange to me how often people try to downplay his role in it.
Actually no. In the first one he should not have been allowed to continue the attack and been forced to wait as the race had been neutralized. In the second without the plan Valverde and Contador came up and getting 3 riders per team into that break and Valverde telling Quintana to look for it Quintana doesn't make that and looses the race to Froome. That was yet again Valverde telling Quintana what to look for or what to do. We saw at the Tour when Froome attacked on the downhill Quintana looking around for someone to tell him what to do.
I'm not sure what Quintana's reaction on the Peyresourde descent tells us either. Quintana put his domestique on the front (Valverde), but Valverde wasn't strong enough to catch Froome. Of course a 50kg rider is going to look around and ask his heavier domestique to take up the chase if he has one in the group - rather than trying to do it all himself.
That would be Valverde and Contador together who came up with the plan. Not like it was the first or last time they came up with a crazy plan in a stage race.
The problem there was Valverde along with Bardet had been DROPPED on that climb and where no where near the front when Froome attacked. It was fully on Quintana (along with BMC) to do the chasing. Quintana should have immediately reacted instead of looking around to be TOLD what to do. Valverde and Bardet were several seconds BEHIND that group and actually caught them on the decent to begin with. So yes that IS on Quintana for not chasing, although you can put that a bit on Porte and VanGarderen as well.
Yes, I agree with all that. Contador was a key part of the move, and deserves credit for that. I have no problem accepting that. But I don't get why Contador's role in the move is used to downplay the tactics that Quintana also showed.LaFlorecita said:Seems like you are the one missing the point, or you're deliberately misinterpreting my post.
We've been over this before and I will never agree that the amount of credit one should get for a move depends mainly on the outcome and not on whatever happened before that. Yes, the move did not pay off for Contador and no, he didn't make the move to help Quintana win. Doesn't take away from the fact if Contador had not made this move, contributed that much in the break and put that much effort into organizing the break (see Fraile quote), Quintana would not have gotten those 2? minutes on Froome and would have had a much more difficult time trying to win the race. But ignore all that, I know you'll never be able to give Contador the credit he deserves.
So nothing at all concrete then. Maybe Quintana came up with the plan and asked Valverde to let Contador know about it. Maybe, perhaps most likely, it was something they discussed and came up with together. It certainly is not evidence that Quintana is tactically useless anyway.Koronin said:Except at that particular stage of that Vuelts there is video and photos of Valverde and Contador is deep conversation in which they did not want others to know what they were saying. Then we get that break. The following season Contador and Valverde came up with a similar idea at Catalonia and pulled it off again. The Giro WAS neutralized and Quintana should NOT have been allowed to keep his advantage.
Then we agree.DFA123 said:Yes, I agree with all that. Contador was a key part of the move, and deserves credit for that. I have no problem accepting that. But I don't get why Contador's role in the move is used to downplay the tactics that Quintana also showed.LaFlorecita said:Seems like you are the one missing the point, or you're deliberately misinterpreting my post.
We've been over this before and I will never agree that the amount of credit one should get for a move depends mainly on the outcome and not on whatever happened before that. Yes, the move did not pay off for Contador and no, he didn't make the move to help Quintana win. Doesn't take away from the fact if Contador had not made this move, contributed that much in the break and put that much effort into organizing the break (see Fraile quote), Quintana would not have gotten those 2? minutes on Froome and would have had a much more difficult time trying to win the race. But ignore all that, I know you'll never be able to give Contador the credit he deserves.
or most likely, Contador came up with the plan the day before as has been reported, told Valverde about it hoping to find some allies, and Valverde told his team including Quintana about it.DFA123 said:So nothing at all concrete then. Maybe Quintana came up with the plan and asked Valverde to let Contador know about it. Maybe, perhaps most likely, it was something they discussed and came up with together. It certainly is not evidence that Quintana is tactically useless anyway.Koronin said:Except at that particular stage of that Vuelts there is video and photos of Valverde and Contador is deep conversation in which they did not want others to know what they were saying. Then we get that break. The following season Contador and Valverde came up with a similar idea at Catalonia and pulled it off again. The Giro WAS neutralized and Quintana should NOT have been allowed to keep his advantage.