Evans and his meeting with Ferrari?

[sniper]

Re: BMC

For me, the BMC images appear discordant with his former body type.
Bulky
Muscluar
Cadel

BMC

Nice one :lol:


W\Any idea who were the doctors when he rode for BMC?
Were Testa and Heiden there? I guess so.
I remember Hampsten bulking up in 1992 (one of his best years ever) under the guidance of the same two doctors.
May be a coincidence of course.

 

[Neworld]

Re: BMC

For me, the BMC images appear discordant with his former body type.
Bulky
Muscluar
Cadel

BMC

Nice one :lol:


W\Any idea who were the doctors when he rode for BMC?
Were Testa and Heiden there? I guess so.
I remember Hampsten bulking up in 1992 (one of his best years ever) under the guidance of the same two doctors.
May be a coincidence of course.

I think is something like this

Team Telekom (2003-04):
-nuff said

Team Lotto (2005-2009)
in 2006:
Management
COEMAN Geert (General Manager)
SERGEANT Marc (Team Manager)
FRISON Herman (Ass. Team Manager)
PEIPER Alan (Ass. Team Manager)
REDANT Hendrik (Ass. Team Manager)
VAN LANCKER Eric (Ass. Team Manager)

Doctor: Johan Mordijck (? who is this guy) he's been their doctor from 2005 until now. Can anyone help find out more about this 'doctor'?


BTW: lotto started in 1985-ish and had Walter Godefroot and Patrick Lefevere as early directeurs sportifs. We know about Walter (Telekom and JU) and P. Lefevere with Phonak (FLandis).

2005-2006:
http://www.dopeology.org/teams/Davitamon-Lotto/


Team BMC (2010-2015):
Jim O, Erik Heiden (who helped to form 7-Eleven Cycling), Max Testa and Scott Major

Dr. Scott Major:
http://reverehealth.com/doctors/scott-major-md/
-This guy is an ENT MD...wtf! What relative training does he have to help cycling...other than 'physiological enhancement'.
Read this article about amateur Cycling racing in the USA, some riders are from Ogden UTAH...where Dr. Scott Major works. Humm.

2012: MERTENS Chris--> Corticosteroid, INCIDENTS Van Avermaet investigation

2009-16: TESTA Massimo-->
TEAMS From To As
7-Eleven 1985 1990 Doctor
Motorola 1991 1996 Doctor
Française des Jeux 1997 1997 Doctor
Asics - CGA 1997 1998 Doctor
Mapei - QuickStep 1999 2002 Doctor
BMC Racing Team 2009 2016 Doctor

PRODUCTS
Erythropoietin (EPO) INCIDENTS
Menthéour admission 03/02/1999
Testa admission Admission 11/09/2006

BMC
INCIDENTS Type Date
Frei positive Positive test 21/03/2010
Frei admission Admission statement 27/04/2010
Van Avermaet investigation 07/05/2015

 

[delbified]

https://twitter.com/Vaughters/status/821424672696897537

 

[Benotti69]

https://twitter.com/Vaughters/status/821424672696897537

JV thought he could sell snakeoil in the clinic, he was wrong, he no longer tries to flog it here....

 

[Nick C.]

https://twitter.com/Vaughters/status/821424672696897537

What brought that series of posts up? Was he just bored?

 

[delbified]

https://twitter.com/Vaughters/status/821424672696897537

JV thought he could sell snakeoil in the clinic, he was wrong, he no longer tries to flog it here....

I'm sure he wasn't able to sell anything in here, I reckon you're right

https://twitter.com/Vaughters/status/821424672696897537

What brought that series of posts up? Was he just bored?

It's in the twitter feed/thread. Someone else brought up this forum and he replied. He was talking about fake cycling news, he didn't specify but maybe the Lance/Lawson Craddock article?

 

[noddy69]

https://twitter.com/Vaughters/status/821424672696897537

JV thought he could sell snakeoil in the clinic, he was wrong, he no longer tries to flog it here....

I'm sure he wasn't able to sell anything in here, I reckon you're right

https://twitter.com/Vaughters/status/821424672696897537

What brought that series of posts up? Was he just bored?

It's in the twitter feed/thread. Someone else brought up this forum and he replied. He was talking about fake cycling news, he didn't specify but maybe the Lance/Lawson Craddock article?

Reading that a little differently and just JV trying to be funny and failing.

Anyway still wondering how a gifted rider beats dopers week three ? How does Cadel improve week on week to keep him in touch for a TT win ? As I said a day race fine, a week maybe believable but a three week battle of attrition where drugs are most effective - how ?
All the evidence points to him doping and usually its the easy answer that's the right one. You have to push faith in the rider(religion does the same thing) which is just wrong but is a fundamentalist stance so not likely to change. Its up there with the extremely gifted point- you have no evidence other that reported VO2 MAX, which you will see from replies many others had and were doped to the gills to win. What you leave out is the fact that within a pro peleton you have all the other extremely gifted cyclists on the planet, it just happens to be a fact that most are doped up. What you have done is hold up Cadel to be better than the drugs, a miracle if you will.

The likelihood of him being a miracle rider is so small it shouldn't be considered. Logically the assumption should be he is on drugs to beat dopers but logic isn't everyones cup of tea.....I used to be in the same boat to be fair .

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

So, a clean Cuddles, was genetically better than all the other genetically gifted riders (they're not us right? They are all champions, best of the best), and was 5% stronger than then, day after day, to finish in the top 3 for more than 6 yrs and even win the TdF? Is that what some people actually still believe? Shocking reality to live that way no?

It's not that outrageous. I don't subscribe to the Anglo riders = Clean, Latin riders = Dirty, but one difference between them is that by all accounts, doping is awash in Euro cycling from the juniors upwards. This helps create a system in those countries where talent selection is distorted from an early point and where the strongest talents are not necessarily getting pro contracts.

I'm not elite but I'm involved enough in amateur road cycling in Australia to have witnessed how some local riders have risen to the World Tour. I firmly believe they are clean - at an absolutely minimum during the journey to the pros. They just didn't need to dope. That is reportedly not the case in some countries like Italy with juniors already doped to the eyeballs.

It's not unreasonable to suspect that some riders at the top are not 'the best of the best', as measured by natural physiological talent. We know Lance was an also-ran before he got on the Ferrari program.

It doesn't matter if they are good without dope or not. What matters is how good they are with it - incredible. Way beyond the best anyone could ever do clean.

Except for Cadel Evans.

Who by pure coincidence also happens to be from your country and also happens to be the guy you liked anyway. Just so happens to be so much physiologically better than everyone else in history that he can compete with these doped freaks.

Oh how easy and beautiful life is, eh?

 

[delbified]

Look, I get it. If you win the Tour or are riding near the front, you are doping. There's no other possible explanation. I get it. Discussion over - how do you argue with that?

Well, the argument is that doping controls limited the benefits of doping over time. We know that modern riders aren't getting the same performance benefits as when they were at 60% hematocrit and riding the rollers all night. It stands to reason that at some point, the doping controls would reach an effectiveness threshold at which it's possible for a clean rider to beat a doped rider.

That's the popular theory for how Cadel 'broke through' and won the Tour. Is it fact? In the absence of any material evidence that Cadel doped, other than that it's the only way he won (which is by far the most powerful argument that he doped, and troubles me - don't get me wrong), I tentatively believe he was clean. Do I know that? No. Would I shocked to find out he doped? Not really. But I can't say he was definitely doped - there's not enough evidence to me.

 

[delbified]

Re: Re:

Who by pure coincidence also happens to be from your country and also happens to be the guy you liked anyway. Just so happens to be so much physiologically better than everyone else in history that he can compete with these doped freaks.

Oh how easy and beautiful life is, eh?

There's stacks of Aussie riders who are 'heros' to me and I like. Phil Anderson is someone whose poster I had up on my bedroom wall for years. He's still involved in cycling and shows his face at club events that I attend. So much respect. Am I naive about the 80s and 90s pro cycling scene and what that most likely, or almost certainly involved? Nope.

 

[Neworld]

https://twitter.com/Vaughters/status/821424672696897537

JV thought he could sell snakeoil in the clinic, he was wrong, he no longer tries to flog it here....

I'm sure he wasn't able to sell anything in here, I reckon you're right

https://twitter.com/Vaughters/status/821424672696897537

What brought that series of posts up? Was he just bored?

It's in the twitter feed/thread. Someone else brought up this forum and he replied. He was talking about fake cycling news, he didn't specify but maybe the Lance/Lawson Craddock article?

Reading that a little differently and just JV trying to be funny and failing.

Anyway still wondering how a gifted rider beats dopers week three ? How does Cadel improve week on week to keep him in touch for a TT win ? As I said a day race fine, a week maybe believable but a three week battle of attrition where drugs are most effective - how ?
All the evidence points to him doping and usually its the easy answer that's the right one. You have to push faith in the rider(religion does the same thing) which is just wrong but is a fundamentalist stance so not likely to change. Its up there with the extremely gifted point- you have no evidence other that reported VO2 MAX, which you will see from replies many others had and were doped to the gills to win. What you leave out is the fact that within a pro peleton you have all the other extremely gifted cyclists on the planet, it just happens to be a fact that most are doped up. What you have done is hold up Cadel to be better than the drugs, a miracle if you will.

The likelihood of him being a miracle rider is so small it shouldn't be considered. Logically the assumption should be he is on drugs to beat dopers but logic isn't everyones cup of tea.....I used to be in the same boat to be fair .

Great Post noddy69, sounds very similar to recent posts...Delbified and co. do not believe you/us. Your post will be classified as heavy-handed and arrogantly eruditious. I guess Cadel was just magic, magic!

I remember a quote from Steve Bauer when he was trending downward at the end of his career and couldn't keep up. In one of his last TdFs, before the start of one of the final stages, he saw a boy and said, see that kid over there, he has more testosterone than I do right now." The trend is to get weaker over three weeks, not stronger like dopers (Cadel included) did and do.

 

[Neworld]

Re: Re:

Who by pure coincidence also happens to be from your country and also happens to be the guy you liked anyway. Just so happens to be so much physiologically better than everyone else in history that he can compete with these doped freaks.

Oh how easy and beautiful life is, eh?

There's stacks of Aussie riders who are 'heros' to me and I like. Phil Anderson is someone whose poster I had up on my bedroom wall for years. He's still involved in cycling and shows his face at club events that I attend. So much respect. Am I naive about the 80s and 90s pro cycling scene and what that most likely, or almost certainly involved? Nope.

http://www.dopeology.org/people/Phil_Anderson/

Gonna take the poster down this weekend?

 

[delbified]

Re: Re:

http://www.dopeology.org/people/Phil_Anderson/

Gonna take the poster down this weekend?

I wish I still had the posters. Stiff penalties in those days!

 

[Neworld]

Re: Re:

http://www.dopeology.org/people/Phil_Anderson/

Gonna take the poster down this weekend?

I wish I still had the posters. Stiff penalties in those days!

It would be interesting to see if his ex-wife throws Cadel under the bus one day.
Hell have no fury like a women's scorn.

 

[delbified]

Great Post noddy69, sounds very similar to recent posts...Delbified and co. do not believe you/us. Your post will be classified as heavy-handed and arrogantly eruditious. I guess Cadel was just magic, magic!

It's not like I don't understand your arguments. But I think you're close-minded to the possibility he was clean. It's easy to be cynical. Statistically you'll be right most of the time and pat yourself on the back for your wisdom. I'd argue the real challenge is to be clever enough to be able to spot the exception. And there are always exceptions.

Am I that clever? No, I'm just guessing. I don't know if Cadel is clean or doping. But my belief is he's clean. Tentatively.

 

[delbified]

Re: Re:

It would be interesting to see if his ex-wife throws Cadel under the bus one day.
Hell have no fury like a women's scorn.

Is there any goss on what happened there? He doesn't mention it in his book, other than saying he was angry and stressed about not being able to spend as much time with his son Robel. He doesn't mention Chiara, but it's obviously a reference to their split.

I dunno that ex-wives necessarily talk. There was Betsy of course (not an ex). She was the exception proving the rule though.

 

[Neworld]

Great Post noddy69, sounds very similar to recent posts...Delbified and co. do not believe you/us. Your post will be classified as heavy-handed and arrogantly eruditious. I guess Cadel was just magic, magic!

It's not like I don't understand your arguments. But I think you're close-minded to the possibility he was clean. It's easy to be cynical. Statistically you'll be right most of the time and pat yourself on the back for your wisdom. I'd argue the real challenge is to be clever enough to be able to spot the exception. And there are always exceptions.

Am I that clever? No, I'm just guessing. I don't know if Cadel is clean or doping. But my belief is he's clean. Tentatively.

I get it, sort of like a young couple that takes an over the counter pregnancy test. They see the blue '+' sign, which is correct 99.9% of the time, but don't believe it until the Ultrasound shows a bambino.

I'm not close-minded, I'm a realist.

Have you emailed M. Ashenden yet? What other research have you done to prove he's innocent or guilty?

 

[delbified]

Have you emailed M. Ashenden yet? What other research have you done to prove he's innocent or guilty?

I've declared my evidence as authoritative and dismissed any that contradicts it as 'weak minded' and 'naive'? Isn't that enough?

 

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

http://www.dopeology.org/people/Phil_Anderson/

Gonna take the poster down this weekend?

I wish I still had the posters. Stiff penalties in those days!

It would be interesting to see if his ex-wife throws Cadel under the bus one day.
Hell have no fury like a women's scorn.

And how many other ex cycling wives have done that or is Evans a special case ?

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

http://www.dopeology.org/people/Phil_Anderson/

Gonna take the poster down this weekend?

I wish I still had the posters. Stiff penalties in those days!

It would be interesting to see if his ex-wife throws Cadel under the bus one day.
Hell have no fury like a women's scorn.

And how many other ex cycling wives have done that or is Evans a special case ?

No ex wives have done it as it would seriously reduce spousal divorce payments.

 

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

http://www.dopeology.org/people/Phil_Anderson/

Gonna take the poster down this weekend?

I wish I still had the posters. Stiff penalties in those days!

It would be interesting to see if his ex-wife throws Cadel under the bus one day.
Hell have no fury like a women's scorn.

And how many other ex cycling wives have done that or is Evans a special case ?

No ex wives have done it as it would seriously reduce spousal divorce payments.

Sean Kelly would say "she has to make the calculation !"

 

[noddy69]

Great Post noddy69, sounds very similar to recent posts...Delbified and co. do not believe you/us. Your post will be classified as heavy-handed and arrogantly eruditious. I guess Cadel was just magic, magic!

It's not like I don't understand your arguments. But I think you're close-minded to the possibility he was clean. It's easy to be cynical. Statistically you'll be right most of the time and pat yourself on the back for your wisdom. I'd argue the real challenge is to be clever enough to be able to spot the exception. And there are always exceptions.

Am I that clever? No, I'm just guessing. I don't know if Cadel is clean or doping. But my belief is he's clean. Tentatively.

I won't pat myself on the back at all I'm just giving what I think is a reasoned opinion based on cycling history and his beating dopers.
You don't have a reasoned argument other than blind faith, which I can understand I just don't agree with and think its not an argument at all. I stopped believing in Santa Claus and elves when I was around 10...took me a little longer to stop believing in sportspeople but I got there.
If you can give a reasoned response to the question I posed other than I'm close minded , which doesn't answer what I asked just deflects, then I'll consider he may be clean- I just can't make that argument as I cant see a way its possible.

 

[spiritualride]

Re: Re:

Anyway, he never really climbed with the best. He hung on in the mountains for dear life,

Not true at all. Look at the results. He climbed with the best consistently for years.

It stands to reason that at some point, the doping controls would reach an effectiveness threshold at which it's possible for a clean rider to beat a doped rider.

According to what, besides wishful thinking? Doping may have become less effective. To say more is a big stretch. Compare the 'reduced doping' climbing times to the 80s. Your wording shows that you want to believe that he's clean. It's not a neutral perspective.

 

[Ferminal]

Re: Re:

Anyway, he never really climbed with the best. He hung on in the mountains for dear life,

Not true at all. Look at the results. He climbed with the best consistently for years.

heh, I've always found this line amusing, as though being dropped by Contador makes you a mediocre climber.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzeS8JUPh2w

Finished behind a bunch of jet fuel monsters and ahead of another bunch in one of the more packed top30s you will see. One of Evans' top 5 climbing performances (this version easily beats the field in 2008 and 2010).

 

[roundabout]

Re: Re:

Anyway, he never really climbed with the best. He hung on in the mountains for dear life,

Not true at all. Look at the results. He climbed with the best consistently for years.

heh, I've always found this line amusing, as though being dropped by Contador makes you a mediocre climber.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzeS8JUPh2w

Finished behind a bunch of jet fuel monsters and ahead of another bunch in one of the more packed top30s you will see. One of Evans' top 5 climbing performances (this version easily beats the field in 2008 and 2010).

Maybe accounting for the length of the climb

http://blog.slate.fr/tour-de-france-2011/2011/07/24/dans-les-alpes-schleck-et-contador-ont-touche-leurs-limites/