Evans vs Wiggins

[kickingfred]

I'm afraid I see Wiggo's GT ambitions going the same way as Millar's. I remember Millar targeting the tour one year after a good result in a few climbs the previous year. And that was a waste of time.

And when the tough gets going, these dandy-boys hit the skids. Bit like the English cricket team. When they are away from their comfy beds and momma's warms cup of earl grey, they lose their bottle. When things are going their way and they have their mates at their side singing Jerusalem or Scotland the Brave, they have all the balls in the world. But, give them an uncomfy bed and cold tea and they're useless.

I sincerely hope Wiggo's booze issues don't get in the way of his career anymore though.

 

[blackcat]

I'm afraid I see Wiggo's GT ambitions going the same way as Millar's. I remember Millar targeting the tour one year after a good result in a few climbs the previous year. And that was a waste of time.

And when the tough gets going, these dandy-boys hit the skids. Bit like the English cricket team. When they are away from their comfy beds and momma's warms cup of earl grey, they lose their bottle. When things are going their way and they have their mates at their side singing Jerusalem or Scotland the Brave, they have all the balls in the world. But, give them an uncomfy bed and cold tea and they're useless.

I sincerely hope Wiggo's booze issues don't get in the way of his career anymore though.

but in one thread you are taking the task to Redant and being an apologist for Evans, yet now taking a cheap shot at the English?

I think when Wiggins jumps to Sky, we will see an equivalent "jump" in his performance. Sky know how the game is played, and will support Wiggins in that goal. I think he will definitely be on the podium with Sky in 2011. But then Cancellara from 2012 will usurp his, because Cancellara once he has the GT aspirations, is quite a considerably better chrono rider, and he can follow wheels and diesel in the mountains as well as Wiggins, he just needs to lose the weight and get that power to weight optimised for a GT. 12 months in the can riding for GC he will be there.

Where is Wiggins to go tho, if not as a defensive rider in the GTs for a classement position. He cannot win an open road stage. He cannot win a chrono. Larsson et al have overtaken him. Boasson and Martin will. He does not have enough anaerobic to take the likes of a peak Hincapie, Hushovd, Cancellara over 4-8 kms. He cant win a long chrono neither.

Wiggins salary will be justified by a top 5 Tour de France position. Like the "first Frenchman" this will always be an illustrious and team leadership position with a new reinvigorated cycling media in the UK.

Wiggins chrono abilities are overrated. Best result was what? A 5th in Worlds. And a 5th in the 2007 Tour chrono, behind Vino, Evans, Contador, Levi. He may have been 4th, and Levi back further.

He has won a Dunkirk or some weak depth, mediocre 2.1 cat chrono in Dunkirk. He won a prologue in l'Avenir. And one more prologue somewhere. Wiggins chrono abilities and palmares are vastly overstated. If you want the best and most underrated chrono palmares, go find Sergei Gonchar.

 

[blackcat]

One other thing about Wiggins. He has seemed to attrack the sobriquet "wheelsucker" and inherited it from Evans and Levi.

But if you consider a bridging attempt an attack, and I do, because your nose is in the wind, Wiggins did make an attack on a climb in the Tour this year, I believe when Contador and Andy Schleck were off the front, and the group behind were gapped. It was mid-Tour. Wiggins was conscious of where Armstrong was, and he tried to go across, but he did not sufficiently gap the group. But he went on an attack in my eyes. There was a cognitive dissonance from me, it "opened" my eyes, but I respected the balls and putting it on the line and not just riding defensively.

 

[auscyclefan94]

but in one thread you are taking the task to Redant and being an apologist for Evans, yet now taking a cheap shot at the English?

I think when Wiggins jumps to Sky, we will see an equivalent "jump" in his performance. Sky know how the game is played, and will support Wiggins in that goal. I think he will definitely be on the podium with Sky in 2011. But then Cancellara from 2012 will usurp his, because Cancellara once he has the GT aspirations, is quite a considerably better chrono rider, and he can follow wheels and diesel in the mountains as well as Wiggins, he just needs to lose the weight and get that power to weight optimised for a GT. 12 months in the can riding for GC he will be there.

Where is Wiggins to go tho, if not as a defensive rider in the GTs for a classement position. He cannot win an open road stage. He cannot win a chrono. Larsson et al have overtaken him. Boasson and Martin will. He does not have enough anaerobic to take the likes of a peak Hincapie, Hushovd, Cancellara over 4-8 kms. He cant win a long chrono neither.

Wiggins salary will be justified by a top 5 Tour de France position. Like the "first Frenchman" this will always be an illustrious and team leadership position with a new reinvigorated cycling media in the UK.

Wiggins chrono abilities are overrated. Best result was what? A 5th in Worlds. And a 5th in the 2007 Tour chrono, behind Vino, Evans, Contador, Levi. He may have been 4th, and Levi back further.

He has won a Dunkirk or some weak depth, mediocre 2.1 cat chrono in Dunkirk. He won a prologue in l'Avenir. And one more prologue somewhere. Wiggins chrono abilities and palmares are vastly overstated. If you want the best and most underrated chrono palmares, go find Sergei Gonchar.

How can we be so sure that Sky would support wiggins well enough. Sky as a team have no raced together once. Lovkist can climb.Who else can climb there?
I agree that in a longer tt wiggins is overated but in a tt that is 20km or below, Wiggins is a force to be reckoned with but not near FC's standard. I think he does have the anaerobic fitness in a 4-8km tt as he has proved at London prologue and at the dauphine. Also his track performances as well have proved that.

 

[blackcat]

How can we be so sure that Sky would support wiggins well enough. Sky as a team have no raced together once. Lovkist can climb.Who else can climb there?
I agree that in a longer tt wiggins is overated but in a tt that is 20km or below, Wiggins is a force to be reckoned with but not near FC's standard. I think he does have the anaerobic fitness in a 4-8km tt as he has proved at London prologue and at the dauphine. Also his track performances as well have proved that.

you have flatlanders like Wiggins who can turn into climbers. Thomas has greater anaerobic power than Wiggins and is already lighter. Sky will turn out great support.

Support can be overrated also. You only need the support at times when the gaps occur, and they can reduce them. See Kohl, Dekker, Vande Velde. All riders are legitimate threats to usurp riders like Evans and Wiggins as team leader. So it is not just support, it could be a threat, turned around where you have to work for Bernhard Kohl.

Kohl's last blood transfusion did not work, and he said he could have won the Tour, if he got that transfusion. Most likely the ASO would have hushed up that positive because they could not have afforded him to be a winner and positive.

Point is, for Evans, a rider with the talent to be 2-6 depending on how things went on the road. To win the Tour, he needed a rider who was around a similar talent, so he could close gaps, and shut down moves like 2007, when Rasmussen and Contador attacked him relentlessly with a one-two punch.

Who could close it down? No one. Effectively Evans was mano a mano, and he was beaten. He needed a support rider, of his talent. Evans got himself to a place, where he had to go mano a mano, and win himself versus the other grimpeurs. We know what the others were on, what was Evans on?

 

[skidmark]

That's the most stupid thing ever. why would AS ever ride for LA or radioshack? for Andy it's more important to win the Tour than getting paid 1 million. Right now at Saxo bank no one can yet challenge his leader position in the tour, and saxo is very strong - Cancellara, larson (andy could improve ITT learning from the best) and Kolobnev looks very good... with Astana breaking apart saxo bank should be up on top. Unless saxo bank ditches him next year, Andy should sit his *** tight. plus Andy is going nowhere without Frank, so there is some extra changes there...

When I was in France at the end of the Tour, L'Equipe came out with an 'exclusive' that Andy Schleck was going to RadioShack next year, but they just had to work out details because the team wanted him to dump Frank. The interview with Wiggins is on August 4th, so I assume he heard and believed that story, which has since been proven false.

 

[no_slipstream]

one thing for sure Wiggins is light years better than McGee ever was.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

:|

remove wiggin's 4th place at the tour, and mcgee's road resume is probably better... actually it is better...

McGee was a warrior, and a little unlucky at times imo. Great rider. Wiggins is not, and never will be "light years" better then McGee!
(NOTE: Not saying wiggins isn't the better rider)

 

[Galic Ho]

I think when Wiggins jumps to Sky, we will see an equivalent "jump" in his performance. Sky know how the game is played, and will support Wiggins in that goal. I think he will definitely be on the podium with Sky in 2011. But then Cancellara from 2012 will usurp his, because Cancellara once he has the GT aspirations, is quite a considerably better chrono rider, and he can follow wheels and diesel in the mountains as well as Wiggins, he just needs to lose the weight and get that power to weight optimised for a GT. 12 months in the can riding for GC he will be there.

Where is Wiggins to go tho, if not as a defensive rider in the GTs for a classement position. He cannot win an open road stage. He cannot win a chrono. Larsson et al have overtaken him. Boasson and Martin will. He does not have enough anaerobic to take the likes of a peak Hincapie, Hushovd, Cancellara over 4-8 kms. He cant win a long chrono neither.

Wiggins salary will be justified by a top 5 Tour de France position. Like the "first Frenchman" this will always be an illustrious and team leadership position with a new reinvigorated cycling media in the UK.

Wiggins chrono abilities are overrated. Best result was what? A 5th in Worlds. And a 5th in the 2007 Tour chrono, behind Vino, Evans, Contador, Levi. He may have been 4th, and Levi back further.

He has won a Dunkirk or some weak depth, mediocre 2.1 cat chrono in Dunkirk. He won a prologue in l'Avenir. And one more prologue somewhere. Wiggins chrono abilities and palmares are vastly overstated. If you want the best and most underrated chrono palmares, go find Sergei Gonchar.

Gonchar was a monster in 2006. Miles ahead of everyone. Spot on with rating Wiggins. At best he manages 5th place in a crucial ITT at a grand tour, notably behind the other GC contenders. Can he improve? I have no basis to believe he can win or come second in a ITT. Wiggins current time sheets bleed seconds that he can nil afford to loose.

Agree that his salary will be justified. It makes financial sense to focus on GT ambitions for now. Sky will make money from his services through marketing in the UK. He's already suggested he will improve at Sky. His eventual move is the worst kept secret in cycling transfers. I certainly won't knock the man for trying though. However I will not mistakenly view him as something he is not. He is a defender and one to follow moves. Until he changes this approach he is destined to be a top rider and contender, but far from the best at a GT. That approach may work if he had a gun ITT, where he can gain the leaders jersey and then defend. Sadly lacking that punch. There are too many good riders to rely on marking. EBH and TM will both trump Wiggins eventually. Then there is Fabian Cancellara. When he looses the weight and rides for BMC, which is inevitable, he will still be a class above Wiggins. A grand tour is all about power to weight ratio.

This thread has made me reevaluate Wiggins. I don't like his attitude when he looses time, with the bike throwing etc, but compared to Evans he seems to be jovial and less highly strung. His team seem to really like him with Garmin broadcasting solid camaraderie. I don't know who I prefer more, Wiggins or Evans. Both have merits and detractors. Thankfully there are other riders to like.

 

[Anonymous]

How can we be so sure that Sky would support wiggins well enough. Sky as a team have no raced together once. Lovkist can climb.Who else can climb there?
I agree that in a longer tt wiggins is overated but in a tt that is 20km or below, Wiggins is a force to be reckoned with but not near FC's standard. I think he does have the anaerobic fitness in a 4-8km tt as he has proved at London prologue and at the dauphine. Also his track performances as well have proved that.

because DB and his team are genuis's

 

[blackcat]

Gonchar was a monster in 2006.

but I did not mean his 2006 Tour. He won everything before he lost weight to be a GC rider in the Giro.

http://www.cyclingwebsite.net/coureuruitslagenfiche.php?coureurid=6692

World Champion, Giro win, other podiums in the Worlds.

Before Cancellara, his palmares were the equal of Ullrich and Botero and Armstrong. Varied, had breadth and consitent results.

Much better palmares than Millar.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

I think when Wiggins jumps to Sky, we will see an equivalent "jump" in his performance. Sky know how the game is played, and will support Wiggins in that goal. I think he will definitely be on the podium with Sky in 2011..

you base this on....?? Sky haven't ridden a race yet... how do they know how the game is played lol

 

[Galic Ho]

you base this on....?? Sky haven't ridden a race yet... how do they know how the game is played lol

Scott Sunderland. CSC director in 2008. Left for Cervelo in 2009, departed early on in the season amicably. He is more than qualified to run the strategy at Sky, which he is now employed to do.

 

[blackcat]

you base this on....?? Sky haven't ridden a race yet... how do they know how the game is played lol

"they know how the game is played" is but a euphemism, substitute "expedience" or "they will be more expedient". Vaughters has done a good effort at playing with an ethical program. Not completely ship-shape in my eyes.

Brailsford and Sutton have no illusions in what they need to do to win the Tour. I don't think anyone will beat Contador in the next 5 years anyhow, with his unrivalled combination of climbing and timetrialing. Shleck is inferior in both disciplines. Cancellara is the only chance to knock him off imo. Especially on a parcours which may have a few stages where Cancellara can attack him on the flat after a HC selection. Never really been won that way. But Savoldelli is the only rider to win as a descender, who is to say that Cancellara cannot win on a stage that Landis and Kloden attempted but Armstrong one. Where the helpers are decimated.

Then it is Bobridge. Unpeered in tting, prologue, for that potential weight, 63/64 kg. So potential power to weight.

I cant see Gesink or A Schleck beating Pistolero.

 

[Angliru]

I'm hearing all this talk of Cancellara in the future being a grand tour gc contender but unless I've missed something I've never heard that he plans to go the Wiggins route, lose the weight and focus on this particular discipline. Quite the contrary. In an article in either ProCycling or Cycle Sport America (can't remember which) he states when asked about losing the weight as Wiggins did and pursuing success in the Tour gc, that he loves to eat too much to make that kind of sacrifice. A great deal of this speculation is based on his Tour De Swiss victory which really isn't a strong foundation for arguing that with this win he may now be leaning towards battling the likes of Contador, Andy Schleck, Menchov and Evans at the Tour.

Now the hour record is one of his goals and something that he hopes to pursue in the near future.

 

[mherm79]

Gonchar was a monster in 2006. Miles ahead of everyone. Spot on with rating Wiggins. At best he manages 5th place in a crucial ITT at a grand tour, notably behind the other GC contenders. Can he improve? I have no basis to believe he can win or come second in a ITT. Wiggins current time sheets bleed seconds that he can nil afford to loose.

To be fair to Wiggins it was the first time he has ridden an ITT in a GT with that much pressure and in week 3. Let's see what next brings.

his olympic record to date is VERY impressive and to then turn that around to finish top 5 in the TdF show's massive potential. his track record proves he has the mental toughness to be elite - another year of focused road training should translate to further improvement

 

[Galic Ho]

To be fair to Wiggins it was the first time he has ridden an ITT in a GT with that much pressure and in week 3. Let's see what next brings.

his olympic record to date is VERY impressive and to then turn that around to finish top 5 in the TdF show's massive potential. his track record proves he has the mental toughness to be elite - another year of focused road training should translate to further improvement

I think thats the point. Wiggins prior to this years Tour was only just pushing the top 5 in a ITT on a good day. He can't do accelerating attacks in the hills so he relies on the ITT to take time. If he can't win or top 3 in a ITT when he isn't a GC guy, what hope does he have now? Can we really expect him to nail it and improve much more? I don't, but good on him for trying. I hope he gets over throwing his bike when he doesn't have it in the tank. Looks bad to watch.

There was a replay of the Jayco Herald Tour last night on tv. He's arguably worse than Evans talking to reporters. Finished the stage, approached the journalists and he muffled something about not liking being asked questions, how it was stupid and proceeded to walk away. To his credit he said he'd come back in ten minutes. Looked weird and showed he needs to work on his PR skills.

 

[auscyclefan94]

I think thats the point. Wiggins prior to this years Tour was only just pushing the top 5 in a ITT on a good day. He can't do accelerating attacks in the hills so he relies on the ITT to take time. If he can't win or top 3 in a ITT when he isn't a GC guy, what hope does he have now? Can we really expect him to nail it and improve much more? I don't, but good on him for trying. I hope he gets over throwing his bike when he doesn't have it in the tank. Looks bad to watch.

There was a replay of the Jayco Herald Tour last night on tv. He's arguably worse than Evans talking to reporters. Finished the stage, approached the journalists and he muffled something about not liking being asked questions, how it was stupid and proceeded to walk away. To his credit he said he'd come back in ten minutes. Looked weird and showed he needs to work on his PR skills.

easy to judge someone after they have ridden up some of the biggest, toughest passes in europe and then you want them to comment after they are fatigued and very sore and tired.

 

[blackcat]

To be fair to Wiggins it was the first time he has ridden an ITT in a GT with that much pressure and in week 3. Let's see what next brings.

his olympic record to date is VERY impressive and to then turn that around to finish top 5 in the TdF show's massive potential. his track record proves he has the mental toughness to be elite - another year of focused road training should translate to further improvement

oh sheeeet.

All the apologist for Wiggins lauded his on-the-bike attention to detail from the track, his consummate professionalism. Now we get that he had pressure. My assssss.

It shows something else IMO.

 

[blackcat]

easy to judge someone after they have ridden up some of the biggest, toughest passes in europe and then you want them to comment after they are fatigued and very sore and tired.

how difficult is it to have a stock standard pavlovian "gimme ten mins, lemme get my breath please, sorry folks".

Just common courtesy and manners.

 

[blackcat]

I think thats the point. Wiggins prior to this years Tour was only just pushing the top 5 in a ITT on a good day. He can't do accelerating attacks in the hills so he relies on the ITT to take time. If he can't win or top 3 in a ITT when he isn't a GC guy, what hope does he have now? Can we really expect him to nail it and improve much more? I don't, but good on him for trying. I hope he gets over throwing his bike when he doesn't have it in the tank. Looks bad to watch.

There was a replay of the Jayco Herald Tour last night on tv. He's arguably worse than Evans talking to reporters. Finished the stage, approached the journalists and he muffled something about not liking being asked questions, how it was stupid and proceeded to walk away. To his credit he said he'd come back in ten minutes. Looked weird and showed he needs to work on his PR skills.

exactly right GH. We were told by Vaughters he lost 150kgs so his power to weight and climbing were completely normal. But when one loses 150kgs, why should we expect their power to stay the same from the 2008 Beijing IP. If he loses that weight, some would be functional muscle from power producing region, no doubt he will lose his sustainable theshold, because of that. It is a compromise and trade off, see Rogers for eg.

No way could Wiggins hope to improve his chrono and his climbing at the same time, if he is losing that weight. Otherwise there is something definitely up.

 

[auscyclefan94]

how difficult is it to have a stock standard pavlovian "gimme ten mins, lemme get my breath please, sorry folks".

Just common courtesy and manners.

the media hunt like dogs, they will do anything for a story as soon as possible. no mercy given.

 

[blackcat]

you remind me of the Armstrong fanbois AusCycle

that aint a complinent neither, if you cant grasp that

 

[auscyclefan94]

you remind me of the Armstrong fanbois AusCycle

that aint a complinent neither, if you cant grasp that

whatever...i'm just stubborn and very defensive. to be an LA fanboyy you have to be insane. which is worse and to a new level of fanboyism or insanity.

 

[blackcat]

you lack a critical thinking. It is not in Evans' interests to be indulged by fanbois and yes men.