Evans...

[Advancedone]

BigBoat is a regular at this site http://www.cuttingedgemuscle.com/Forum/index.php?
Under the user name Realgains.
He obviously has knowledge about drug use in sport and even seems to prescribe what to use and when. He admits he has, to use his term, ridden with a jacked crit. He clearly has some inside knowledge about Pro cycling so I wouldn't discount what he says. At 40 years of age he wouldn't be that long out of the pro levels if that is where his knowledge comes from. I wonder if he is not involved in the medical/training side of things.

I'm not posting this to call the guy out or anything, but to help people to see that he isn't necessarily just some hack with to much time on his hands. I've read his posts on that forum and find them to be quite educational. I may not agree with his methods but he seems like he knows his stuff. You need to be a member to see the forum section "Endurance athletics and sport specific training" it really is an eye opener to read what is going on in the sport world, and not just the pro levels. If you ride at any sort of level it would seem that you would've been smashed by someone using PED's.

My one reservation about BB's posts here is that I sometimes wonder if people working so close to the coal face, as it were, start to rationalise that everyone must think and act like them. Personally I think he is closer to the truth than some people realise, but I do hope that he overstates things somewhat. In Cadel's case I hope he is wrong.

 

[benpounder]

It appears to me, reading this thread, that Cadel Evans is the new Lance Armstrong. Not in terms of his cycling ablitiy, but in terms of how infatuated many of his supporters are. It is nice to know that in a doped pelaton, there is one rider that is 100% clean.

 

[slowoldman]

BigBoat is a regular at this site http://www.cuttingedgemuscle.com/Forum/index.php?
Under the user name Realgains.

..............."Endurance athletics and sport specific training" it really is an eye opener to read what is going on in the sport world, and not just the pro levels. If you ride at any sort of level it would seem that you would've been smashed by someone using PED's.

................ In Cadel's case I hope he is wrong.

Sorry to chop up your post Advancedone, hope you don't mind.

Two things, I have been saying all along that "amatuers" all the way down to Category 4 racers use pharmaceutical enhancement (I know as a former teammate of mine did it). It is tragic, laughable and pathetic as far as I am concerned. (Category 4 is the first "upgrade" in USA cycling, don't know what it conicides with abroad).

Why would anybody go to websites like that? I would surmise that they are looking to find out how to dope. I have never been to a website like that, don't feel the need to as I really don't care to learn about it. Some might say to find out how to spot a doper, who cares. I race/ride to the best of my ability and have no control over other racers. I used to get upset about it, now I just pity people like that.

Sounds ridiculous, but I wouldn't know if EPO is clear, red, liquid or powder (exageration here....) or what any other PED looks like. I am proud of my ignorance in this subject. Quite honestly I find BigBoats posts boring and repetitive...I don't need to learn about rectics (?) or other CRAP with regard to doping. I just don't do it.

Well, three things actually, I like Cadel (seem to be in a minority here) and I hope he wins the Tour. I'll be rooting for him.

 

[yourwelcome]

BigBoat is a regular at this site http://www.cuttingedgemuscle.com/Forum/index.php?
Under the user name Realgains.
He obviously has knowledge about drug use in sport and even seems to prescribe what to use and when.

He obviously knows more about drugs in sport than most of us here, but the main issue in this thread is more about his being wrong in his statements about Evans' career.

 

[BigBoat]

I hate people like BIgBoat, who say they love the tour de france as it is a great event with all the drama but claim all riders are cheats. The riders make up the race and drama so how can you really like the sport if the riders are all supposedly cheats? Luckily their is some smart people who have woke up to your bs.

I do not hate anybody on here... You shouldnt either. Its only a message board not a boxing ring.

I didnt say all the TDF riders are cheats, I said all the riders are doped. You have to differentiate there. I also said I do not hate Evans (or his teamates Dekker) for blood doping with their own blood and having doped with epo in the past before the epo test.

He obviously knows more about drugs in sport than most of us here, but the main issue in this thread is more about his being wrong in his statements about Evans' career.

No doubt some of those riders never "rode" with Evans. But they rode for his teams at various times. There are also a lot of managers and doctors that stayed and I've zero doubt Evans had the same treatment being the top dog he was.

It appears to me, reading this thread, that Cadel Evans is the new Lance Armstrong. Not in terms of his cycling ablitiy, but in terms of how infatuated many of his supporters are. It is nice to know that in a doped pelaton, there is one rider that is 100% clean.

Bingo.

 

[**Uru**]

BigBoat, where do you get your evidence? You frequently state opinions as fact. Doping is an important issue in cycling, but making baseless accusations does nothing to bring what may be happening out into the open.

 

[BigBoat]

BigBoat, where do you get your evidence?

You see I have raced at a high level and have continuously watched and coached the sport for years... I have seen people go from at best 30th in races to winning every race (complete domination.) This is the power increase were talking about. In stage races with 200 riders and mountain climbing, an even bigger difference.

Doping is an important issue in cycling, but making baseless accusations does nothing to bring what may be happening out into the open.

I think this does help put it in the open. What am I supposed to do? Tell everybody who I am, my family? You think I'm nuts!

 

[Turd Ferguson]

Bigboat, do riders really use morphine? What for? Pain relief? Can you explain

Cheers.

A little off topic at this point in the thread but riders did use morphine to dull the pain both on and off the bike. I think it was a part of the notorious 'Belgian Cocktail' mixture that was popular in 80's and 90's. Although Frank was just using it to get f***** up while partying.

 

[Amsterhammer]

You see I have raced at a high level and have continuously watched and coached the sport for years... I have seen people go from at best 30th in races to winning every race (complete domination.) This is the power increase were talking about. In stage races with 200 riders and mountain climbing, an even bigger difference.

I think this does help put it in the open. What am I supposed to do? Tell everybody who I am, my family? You think I'm nuts!

A good start might be to restrict yourself to 'words' as much as possible here when trying to make a case, and save the scientific measurement mumbo-jumbo of the various doping compounds used to achieve whatever for that other forum you (allegedly) post on. You'll never convince the majority of readers here (ok,I'm guessing at that) by bombarding them with information they will never understand and don't care about in such detail.

My two cents.

 

[Big_Blue_Dave]

Great post....I agree wholeheatedly with your points here. I'd read a long time ago how Cadel was never accepted into the inner sanctum of T-Mobile, which in light of Kohl's comments, make sense, if indeed Cadel was clean.

I liked Boonen's comments in relation to Cadel two years ago. About the fact that he's given up on all the main GC contenders, except for Cadel.
Cadel's VO2 Max at the AIS was 92, which is the highest they've ever come across in that institute.
Cadel has also had a steady progression up the GC of the Tour, another encouraging sign. No drastic improvements of a mule to a racehorse. And look at the way his form builds each year, not like certain other riders who rode terribly in the spring and early summer, in the rare occasions they did race, yet miraculously turned up flying in July.

In relation to OP, I believe myself to be pretty cynical in relation to pro cycling, but I honestly believe you're way overboard. Not even people I admire so greatly, such as Walsh, Ballester, Kimmage and Lemond, are as bad as you.
To BigBoat, do you believe Bradley Wiggins, Mark Cavendish, David Millar and Dan Martin are currently doping?
Also, I could be wrong, but did I see a post whereby you felt Chris Boardman doped in the 90s? And your views on Obree?

Yes you did, just have a search for it, and I'll tell you now he just wants us to give him attention, if you stop responding to him he will keep peddling his tripe, unless he actually states a rider has doped and said rider decides to place a lawsuit both on Future Publishing and also the actual person that is this plank. When this happens he will disappear once and for all, and this forum will have one less dope polluting the site.

 

[Captain Kirk]

yes you did, just have a search for it, and i'll tell you now he just wants us to give him attention, if you stop responding to him he will keep peddling his tripe, unless he actually states a rider has doped and said rider decides to place a lawsuit both on future publishing and also the actual person that is this plank. When this happens he will disappear once and for all, and this forum will have one less dope polluting the site.

.....
+1......

 

[BigBoat]

To BigBoat, do you believe Bradley Wiggins, Mark Cavendish, David Millar and Dan Martin are currently doping?
Also, I could be wrong, but did I see a post whereby you felt Chris Boardman doped in the 90s?

They are not blood doped like G.C. riders but they still can IV dose epo and get a naturally high crit...Or now they might just want to take enough packed cells to keep their racing crit near 50%. And hemodilute back down to their natural 40-43% for morning controls. There;s also HGH, or IGF-1, insulin, Synacthen Depot (ACTH) that is a natural recovery boost. I dont know what a guy like Dr. Ferrari does... Lance is likely doping with PEDS not even on the banned list, but he'll still blood dope with his own blood which is untested for this year. Similar to the Tour of California not testing for epo.

You see almost nobody on the Tour is clean...The pace is simply waay to high. Why race clean when the door is wide open to dope and everybody else is doped? Its not cheating if everyone's doping.

Another thing to look at is $$$. NO BIG MONEY! No endorsements, no book, no fame from fans like Digger... The whole world wants more, almost nobody is satisfied by what they have. There are amateurs that dope, yet Cavendish makes millions off of cycling clean!? What a joke...Just allow me to put it into perspective. The list goes on and on.....cranking out 1,800+ watts in a sprint after 200km racing..

And your views on Obree?

I said on an earlier thread I believe Obree was clean. His homemade bikes were more aerodynamic and he was extremely extremely talented. You see Obree was kicked off his only real pro team, and he has come out with some statements since then that show him giving discust towards dope. Also, his total power output at FTP was less than boardman's considerably. He would have destroyed boardman though if he had doped, and he probably would have made a killing and been one of the greats. He could have doped who knows...I dont think anybody told Obree about epo.... atleast for a while. I could be wrong. He's right on the edge of whats possible clean.


Boardman used epo though for sure. His power was higher, but you have to look at his TDF TTs which were unreal. A short TT effort is all V02 max, which shoots through the roof with epo/blood doping. What Boardman lacked was the "growth" (HGH for recovery).

 

[auscyclefan94]

I do not hate anybody on here... You shouldnt either. Its only a message board not a boxing ring.

I didnt say all the TDF riders are cheats, I said all the riders are doped. You have to differentiate there. I also said I do not hate Evans (or his teamates Dekker) for blood doping with their own blood and having doped with epo in the past before the epo test.
No doubt some of those riders never "rode" with Evans. But they rode for his teams at various times. There are also a lot of managers and doctors that stayed and I've zero doubt Evans had the same treatment being the top dog he was.

I only hate you on this cyclingnews forum because everything you post is the bs you pull out of your ****. You already put yourself in the boxing ring with comments like that. I don't hate anyone else on this forum even if i may disagree with some people. If you are saying all riders are doped that means all tdf riders are doped. it's the same statement. You say you don't hate evans but you write nearly a full page post with you bad research and type a post that is trying to prove he is a cheat. That means you obviously hate the guy. If you had more credibility to your posts and stopped trying to prove every rider is a cheat then you may have more people taking in what you write.

 

[BigBoat]

and stopped trying to prove every rider is a cheat then you may have more people taking in what you write.

I dont believe doping is considered cheating on the TDF.

I agree: Lance Pharmastrong and Alberto Contadoper are both Life Science pin cushions for:

weekly/daily injections of:
insulin/glucose
EPO
corticosteroids
hGH
female fertility hormone hCG
testosterone
Pot Belge (morphine, heroin, cocaine, caffeine)

IV feedings of:
cow blood spinners (Hemopure, Polyheme, Actovegin)
saline
glucose
corticoids

But then, all Grand Tour GC riders are medically doped too!

This is a VERY accurate post by flyer if this were 1998. I think he's right. But, I would shift the epo over to blood doping with your own blood as to not test positive Cadel (like that nice young teamate of yours Dekker.)

u bad research and type a post that is trying to prove he is a cheat. That means you obviously hate the guy.

I dont hate Evans... He blood dopes and uses other drugs, but I dont hate him for it. You hate doping apparently. You flamed me on the other thread.

 

[The Dr]

I dont believe doping is considered cheating on the TDF.



This is a VERY accurate post by flyer if this were 1998. I think he's right. But, I would shift the epo over to blood doping with your own blood as to not test positive Cadel (like that nice young teamate of yours Dekker.)

And the drivel just keeps on coming. Dude you consider this to be "very accurate"? I doubt you'd know which way is up and which was is down. Who cares that you have competed at a high level ( I seriously doubt you have), it still doesn't give you the right to do what you've done. Your so called evidence is nothing more than dreamt-up horse ****. My point here isn't that I'm a fan of Evans, but that you seem to think that you have a right to be able to come on here and slander people without ANYTHING even resembling something close to the true, all from the safety of safety and anonymity of a computer. If you think it's fine to drag people's name into the mud how about you grow a spine and use YOUR real name?

 

[auscyclefan94]

I dont believe doping is considered cheating on the TDF. I dont hate Evans... He blood dopes and uses other drugs, but I dont hate him for it. You hate doping apparently. You flamed me on the other thread.

I would be proud to say i do hate doping. Why are you proud to say you don't hate doping? It's not just not me who flames you on every thread. IT'S EVERYONE it's double standards to say doping is fine at the tour then say it's not alright at other events. Can you please tell me why you hate all the riders if follow cycling so 'avidly'?

 

[lone_cowboy]

this is the most ridiculous thread i have ever seen in my life. Why are we talking about people doping with no proof at all. It is 1 day before the tour and all people think about is people doping!!!

 

[auscyclefan94]

this is the most ridiculous thread i have ever seen in my life. Why are we talking about people doping with no proof at all. It is 1 day before the tour and all people think about is people doping!!!

I actually agree with you. I wish their were more threads about the racing and not about stupid doping conspiracies with little or no proof at all. Cycling news needs to moderate the amount of stupid threads on the site.

 

[BigBoat]

I would be proud to say i do hate doping. please tell me why you hate all the riders if follow cycling so 'avidly'?

Why do you follow cycling if you hate doping? All the sport is is dope. If your favorites were clean you wouldnt even see them after the first significant climbs, they'd be dropped.

I dont hate most riders, I said I love Vino, and I certainly dont hate Evans. That was my first post is that I dont hate him.

 

[msjett]

this is the most ridiculous thread i have ever seen in my life. Why are we talking about people doping with no proof at all. It is 1 day before the tour and all people think about is people doping!!!

Because people, can't say "that's nice dear" and leave it alone....

 

[auscyclefan94]

Why do you follow cycling if you hate doping? All the sport is is dope. If your favorites were clean you wouldnt even see them after the first significant climbs, they'd be dropped.

I dont hate most riders, I said I love Vino, and I certainly dont hate Evans. That was my first post is that I dont hate him.

I don't believe all riders are cheats. I said in general that you always condemn all the riders to be cheats

 

[BigBoat]

I don't believe all riders are cheats. I said in general that you always condemn all the riders to be cheats

there are non-dopers outside of the TDF for sure. I'm not saying all pros dope.But in the TDF yes... mostly. Is doping cheating in the TDF? No, apart from using Dr. Ferrari.

 

[slowoldman]

Is doping cheating in the TDF? No.

ummmm. yes, it is.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

ummmm. yes, it is.

That depends on how you define "cheating".

The fundamental definition of "cheating" is doing something that gives you an unfair advantage. If it's true that all tdf riders have the same doping options open to them, and use them as best as they can, then it's not cheating in the fundamental sense. This is exactly how the riders see it, apparently.

And they have a good point. Fundamentally, it's no different than training at high altitude, or sleeping in an altitude tent, drafting behind cars in order to catch up with the peloton after fetching water, etc.

Now, if you're using the best doctor in the business and paid him to not help others, that is arguably an unfair advantage.

 

[Captain Kirk]

That depends on how you define "cheating".

The fundamental definition of "cheating" is doing something that gives you an unfair advantage. If it's true that all tdf riders have the same doping options open to them, and use them as best as they can, then it's not cheating in the fundamental sense. This is exactly how the riders see it, apparently.

And they have a good point. Fundamentally, it's no different than training at high altitude, or sleeping in an altitude tent, drafting behind cars in order to catch up with the peloton after fetching water, etc.

Now, if you're using the best doctor in the business and paid him to not help others, that is arguably an unfair advantage.

Cheating = the breaking of rules.

The rules of this game/sport are being broken by people playing the game.

Everyone has the choice to break rules, whatever the environment. They do so at their peril.

In this case they loose privilege of being invited to participate in this game.

That is their choice, they can take their bat and ball (or bike) home and play in their own backyard with their backyard rules.